Intruder On Property

[shafter]

I had the same reaction when I saw the video the day he posted it. His response was, to put it mildly, over the top. I've really wondered if the video wasn't some kind of a joke. My impression of his confession that he screwed up, was that he felt he screwed up by the fact the guy got onto his property. I don't know John Lovell, I've never trained with him. I always thought he was probably a competent trainer. However after watching that video I wonder if his classes aren't geared towards the wannabe commando? There are a few trainers in the community who see the wannabes as their audience.

I am taking Lovell's video statement at face value. He made it and published it.
His emphatic words illustrate to me he is a crackpot with poor assessment skills.

Placing an unknown and unrestrained substance abuser in the passenger cabin of his car could result in that stranger having a psychotic episode and having to engage with that individual while driving to maintain control at his stated 110 mph rate of speed.

If he feels he misspoke or was accidentally untruthful…he should make a follow-up video to clarify.

I've trained with him before and his classes are legit as are his assistants. Definitely not crackpots. Other reputable instructors think well of him also from what I've heard. He does have a odd sense of humor though and some of what he says seems like over embelleshment.

I'm really surprised at the trainwreck he described because to hear him say it that's what it was. I think his downfall was coming out of the gate way too hot and that set the momentum for the trainwreck. He should have chilled for a second and assessed, but then again I've seen some highly capable people freak out when they perceive a threat to their families. It's real easy to have happen when you don't take that one second to assess and it sounds like he thought his property was impervious to intrusion.

As for the driving like a maniac I think the speed was exaggerated but nonetheless it sounds like he was going way too fast. I'll give him a pass on transporting though because he does say that 911 had no idea where he was and it can take forever to find unmarked driveways in rural areas. Been there done that. It would be my last option but maybe he felt that the guy didn't have the time.

At the end of the day tt is what it is. No one died and no one went to jail. He called himself out on his mistakes so good for him. Maybe people can get some value out of his mistake. I still like the guy and would train with him again. No one is perfect.

 

[Speedo66]

I shake my head sometimes when I see what some people feel compelled to record and post online.

 

[Kleanbore]

no one went to jail.

No one has gone to jail.

There are reasons why prudent persons do not post such things as this in public venues.

 

[entropy]

Yeah same here. Owning a bunch of property comes with the job.
I'll gaurantee someone is hunting/ fishing/camping/atv-ing or something.....shooting.....on our property right now...at this moment.
I built a little bridge across a big creek to access our property on the other side.. It is a popular spot for people to trespass, and I'll admit... for around here, its pretty scenic.
I'm usually pretty lenient with people unless its deer season or they're littering beer cans, but you would be surprised at the number of people that get huffy when you confront them. They all have some reason why they have permission, lol.

Maybe time to build a drawbridge there?

Even my son knows to carry while working on the farm, though so far he's only shot livestock while doing so. He does mobile on farm butchering, uses a Ruger Wrangler for that, he carries his .38 around the farm he lives on.

 

[shafter]

No one has gone to jail.

There are reasons why prudent persons do not post such things as this in public venues.

What are you even talking about?

 

[Kleanbore]

What are you even talking about?

[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/read-before-posting-legal-considerations-of-posting-on-the-internet.604948/"]Read before Posting: Legal Considerations of Posting on the Internet[/URL]

 

[The Night Rider]

What are you even talking about?

I'm 100% in agreement with Kleanbore on this one. It's not likely but it's not outside the realm of possibility that Meth boy could have filed a complaint.

I mean, even though WP told the story in the way that put him in the best light the participants in this discussion largely agree that he over reacted.

 

[shafter]

I'm 100% in agreement with Kleanbore on this one. It's not likely but it's not outside the realm of possibility that Meth boy could have filed a complaint.

I mean, even though WP told the story in the way that put him in the best light the participants in this discussion largely agree that he over reacted.

True, it's possible but I highly doubt that complaint would go anywhere due the totality of the circumstances, especially in his state.

 

[luzyfuerza]

On big property, fences and locking gates help control the looky-lou's. Other big, immovable barriers help, too. If an honest/lost/addled person gets past these, then security cameras, motion alarms, and dogs help alert owners to the situation.

"Keep Out" signs only really help with any subsequent prosecutions, since nobody thinks that these signs apply to them.

But if any serious, prepared intruders want onto big property, they will be ready to defeat or avoid any of these tools. And you won't probably detect this kind of intruder unless they want you to. When they have the element of surprise.

As a property owner, the trick is to quickly figure out which category today's intruder falls into.

My guess is that Lovell has not had to quickly categorize too many intruders who have invaded his home base. The place where he, his wife, and their children feel comfortable and safe. If you haven't learned from past experiences with harmless intruders, then its easy to assume that everyone falls into the dangerous category.

This may also be why Lovell hasn't yet learned to carry concealed on his own property. Yea, its a hassle. And uncomfortable. Literally, a pain in the love handles. But if he had been carrying, he would not have felt any need to threaten with the shotgun. He would have had the necessary tools ready to use, without exposing them in a way that could be taken as a threat, whether the intruder fell into the honest/lost/addled category, or the serious, prepared, really dangerous category.

 

[herrwalther]

I can't watch nearly as much Youtube as I would like. So this will sit on my Watch Later list for quite some time. I will hold judgement on his tactics until I can hear the whole story.

 

[Scrapiron45]

Was interesting to look thru a few of the ten thousand plus comments posted following the video. Of course I just skimmed through the first hundred or so but the general consensus was positive with his reaction to a perceived threat to his children.
There were concerns of his distaste for carrying a pistol around the farm and several mentioned that he should have been watching for a second or third intruder.
Pretty much agreement he shouldn't have loaded the guy up in his car and possibly leaving his family unprotected.
The unpredictable nature of children and a parents frantic willingness to possibly give their life for them make defensive scenarios hard to plan for.
As Ayoob said " Take time to put your pants on".
Give yourself that few seconds to evaluate the situation.
A very hard thing to do when your child is yelling for help.

 

[jmorris]

I can't watch nearly as much Youtube as I would like. So this will sit on my Watch Later list for quite some time. I will hold judgement on his tactics until I can hear the whole story.

Your only going to hear one side of it…

 

[Hasaf]

My father frequently had people pitch a tent on a couple of corners of his property. As he told me, "if I can't see them from the house, they really aren't bothering me." On one corner he eventually put in a porta-potty. It was convenient for him and kept that area cleaner.

He knew the trail was there when he purchased the place, an established hiking, horse, and bicycle trail. The trail was something he liked about it. That made it a bit hard to honestly begrudge the presence of the trail.

 

[The Night Rider]

My father frequently had people pitch a tent on a couple of corners of his property. As he told me, "if I can't see them from the house, they really aren't bothering me." On one corner he eventually put in a porta-potty. It was convenient for him and kept that area cleaner.

He knew the trail was there when he purchased the place, an established hiking, horse, and bicycle trail. The trail was something he liked about it. That made it a bit hard to honestly begrudge the presence of the trail.

I used to have to do security checks on a city owned Farm. My instructions were very simple "No trespassers. If you find somebody camping there run them off or have them cited."

The problem was the caretaker. Hewas a city employee and kept giving people permission to camp on the property. I didn't have an option anyone camping there I had to tell to leave and invariably they'd tell me that he said they didn't have to.

So I had my boss telling me to move them and him telling them they could stay which means they were not trespassing and me stuck in the middle.

Then, I got to deal with the caretaker raising hell because hikers were coming through the property and destroying the fencing.

God I hated that assignment.

 

[old lady new shooter]

A question just occurred to me in connection with him driving the MH to the hospital:
Being that he temporarily detained him, if MH died before the ambulance arrived (which was apparently going to take quite some time), could MH's family have sued on the grounds that he delayed MH's getting treatment? And any chance they would have prevailed?

 

[Jeff White]

A question just occurred to me in connection with him driving the MH to the hospital:
Being that he temporarily detained him, if MH died before the ambulance arrived (which was apparently going to take quite some time), could MH's family have sued on the grounds that he delayed MH's getting treatment? And any chance they would have prevailed?

We are in America, anyone can be sued for anything. If they could prevail is anyone’s guess.

 

[starnbar]

A question just occurred to me in connection with him driving the MH to the hospital:
Being that he temporarily detained him, if MH died before the ambulance arrived (which was apparently going to take quite some time), could MH's family have sued on the grounds that he delayed MH's getting treatment? And any chance they would have prevailed?

If the guy is dead what is the issue my uncle found a dead guy in his scrap yard in a old car how he got there and when he died who knows?

 

[old lady new shooter]

If WP called 911, it's known that he knew MH was in medical trouble.

 

[Kleanbore]

If the guy is dead what is the issue my uncle found a dead guy in his scrap yard in a old car how he got there and when he died who knows?

Think about it.

 

[shafter]

A question just occurred to me in connection with him driving the MH to the hospital:
Being that he temporarily detained him, if MH died before the ambulance arrived (which was apparently going to take quite some time), could MH's family have sued on the grounds that he delayed MH's getting treatment? And any chance they would have prevailed?

They may sue on those grounds but its doubtful they would win. JL expedited medical treatment that he wouldn't otherwise have received. It's highly likely he saved his life. The issue is that he seems to have badly overreacted in doing so but then again he's the self proclaimed warrior poet so I think the story may have become a little more "flowery" in the telling.

 

[old lady new shooter]

.
(accidental double post deleted)

 

[aaaaa]

No one has gone to jail.

There are reasons why prudent persons do not post such things as this in public venues.

Yeah, the guy put his confession on You Tube. I suppose if they wanted to they could issue him a citation for reckless driving or perhaps worse.

 

[old lady new shooter]

They may sue on those grounds but its doubtful they would win. JL expedited medical treatment that he wouldn't otherwise have received. It's highly likely he saved his life. The issue is that he seems to have badly overreacted in doing so but then again he's the self proclaimed warrior poet so I think the story may have become a little more "flowery" in the telling.

As it actually happened, yes, I agree. My question was hypothetical for the case that JL had refrained from driving MH to the hospital but instead waited with him for the ambulance as many here have stated would have been more prudent.

(Rereading my original post I see that I didn't make myself clear, sorry!)

 

[Kleanbore]

That's all hypothetical. it would be of little use to predict what a jury might do even if we knew the outcome.

The patient would be a lot better of in an ambulance with competent emergency medical technicians monitoring his vital signs and administering treatment than riding in a car, and hospital personnel would have a big head start upon arrival. What the comparative times before treatment would be could be important.

I would not want to have someone under the influence of drugs in my car while I was driving.

 

[shafter]

As it actually happened, yes, I agree. My question was hypothetical for the case that JL had refrained from driving MH to the hospital but instead waited with him for the ambulance as many here have stated would have been more prudent.

(Rereading my original post I see that I didn't make myself clear, sorry!)

Waiting for an ambulance would be my first choice and generally the best choice, but being very familiar with rural patrol it can sometimes take a really long time to find an address after taking a half hour or more to just get to your area. There's a lot of options and variables. He could have brought the guy to a more easily found location or had his wife go down to the main road to flag down first responders. The saying that when seconds matter the police are only minutes away doesn't just apply to self defense. The same can be said for fire and ems as well.