Is it just me? Another volume vs weight.

[jmorris]

Why is it that Hodgdon has load data, charge in grains weight, on smokeless powder labels but does not even mention the fact on BP subs they offer, that BP charges are given in a volume not weight or any conversion data?

I understand there are charts out there and if one has "real" BP they can make their own measure at that point but it seems a simple, "charge weight of pyrodex X 1.28 = BP charge weight/assumed volume grain charge" or something similar, would be nice.

Seems better than weighing out a 70 grain charge of say Pyrodex and thinking your exact when the BP volume equivalent is 90 grains.

 

[Rattus58]

Why is it that Hodgdon has load data, charge in grains weight, on smokeless powder labels but does not even mention the fact on BP subs they offer, that BP charges are given in a volume not weight or any conversion data?

I understand there are charts out there and if one has "real" BP they can make their own measure at that point but it seems a simple, "charge weight of pyrodex X 1.28 = BP charge weight/assumed volume grain charge" or something similar, would be nice.

Seems better than weighing out a 70 grain charge of say Pyrodex and thinking your exact when the BP volume equivalent is 90 grains.

For one thing, Hodgdon Equivalent powders ALL SAY USE BY EQUIVALENT VOLUME... when compared to Black Powder.

Anyone starting into Black Powder has AMPLE opportunity to learn this procedure and if they don't, the responsibility is all theirs for injury to themselves or others.

Not being thoroughly familiar with your firearm before using it is irresponsible.

Aloha...

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

It is very simple.

Get yourself one of these.



Set the slider for whatever to whatever real Black Powder grain weight you want; 30 grains, 40 grains, whatever.

Then simply use the measure to portion out that much Pyrodex. If you want an actual weight on the Pyrodex, weigh the charge.

 

[Rattus58]

Howdy

It is very simple.

Get yourself one of these.



Set the slider for whatever to whatever real Black Powder grain weight you want; 30 grains, 40 grains, whatever.

Then simply use the measure to portion out that much Pyrodex. If you want an actual weight on the Pyrodex, weigh the charge.

Yes... this is the one... or one..

Aloha...

 

[Branko_D]

They are given in volume because they are about as strong as first-rate black powder, per unit of volume.

So if your gun can handle 100 gr of Swiss, it can handle 100 gr by volume of Pyrodex and will often give similar performance. However if you put in 100 gr of Pyrodex by weight, then you went over the allowable maximum.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Ditto to the above....Hodgdon doesn't want to suggest that a person using black powder or one of their substitute powders, ever use weight over volume when loading a BP firearm. They have enough problems already with similarities in packaging and dolts who use smokeless powder "because it looked black in color" in their BP gun and blowing themselves up.

LD

 

[jmorris]

For one thing, Hodgdon Equivalent powders ALL SAY USE BY EQUIVALENT VOLUME... when compared to Black Powder.

Yes, but that doesn't do anyone any good unless they have both black powder and the substitute.

How hard would it be to print
"5.0 CC's volume (45-70 case) of Pyrodex P, 57 grains weight, is the equivalent of 75.8 grains of 3F BP."

Even better would be this on the back of the jug.
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Not wanting to be ornery, but you don't need to have any real Black Powder on hand and you don't need a chart or any math.

Just get a powder measure like I showed. You can buy them just about anywhere that BP is sold, or you can buy one on the internet.

Then set the slider to what ever number you want. Pour in your sub, level of the charge, and there you go.

You will now have a 'volume equivalent' to real Black Powder for your sub.

 

[jmorris]

Not wanting to be ornery, but you don't need to have any real Black Powder on hand and you don't need a chart or any math.

Just get a powder measure like I showed. You can buy them just about anywhere that BP is sold, or you can buy one on the internet.

That's not ornery at all, I was just using what I had on hand from 30 years loading smokeless and wondered why BP/BP subs were not as straight forward with weighed data or at least a "volume grain" vs actual weight data, like we use in metallic reloading.

 

[Ifishsum]

Yeah, it was a little hard for me to accept also - basically ignoring the scale I so carefully rely on. The old way is more straightforward than what we now do with smokeless as far as that goes. Loading an cartridge originally designed for BP, you really don't even need a volume measure - just fill the case so the bullet will compress the powder charge at least a little. With BP or a true BP sub, that will be the correct volume for the cartridge regardless of actual weight (actually a bit less due to thicker modern brass case heads). It's riskier to download than it is to load it full...some kind of filler is required to be sure there is no air space.

 

[Branko_D]

That's not ornery at all, I was just using what I had on hand from 30 years loading smokeless and wondered why BP/BP subs were not as straight forward with weighed data or at least a "volume grain" vs actual weight data, like we use in metallic reloading.

Mostly, for historical reasons. Grains were always intended as a measure of weight. However since precise scales weren't dime a dozen a century and something ago and everyone needed to reload the muzzleloader and needed to do it in the field, doing it by volume was just easier and accessible to everyone. For reloading metallic catridges with BP doing it by volume is the safe way to do it, as the poster above me says. One "volumetric grain" is basically the volume of one grain of ideal black powder, it's just that measuring by volume is a convenient way to measure by weight which you can do with a muzzleloader in the field where scales aren't available. Since BP isn't a terribly effective propellant, this measurement is accurate enough.

Then came the BP substitutes, which were designed to work with BP measures (which measure by volume) and existing BP loading tables (which are also by volume), so they could be simply substituted for black powder. It was just easier to sell a substitute when you directly substitute it without changing the way things are done. In other words, it was done that way because it was done that way before, and now, who would undertake the massive effort of redoing everything when the present system works, and works safely?

As long as you're handling actual black powder, you're basically free to either measure by weight or by volume. I do it by volume simply because it's more convenient and easier to do. If I had a chronograph it would be interested to see if doing it by weight is more consistent then carefully doing it by volume, but I suspect the differences between spread of the two ways of loading would be minute if they existed at all.

If you're handling substitutes, you'd have to recalculate the loading limitations taking into account the difference in density if you were to do it by weight.

 

[jmorris]

If I had a chronograph it would be interested to see if doing it by weight is more consistent then carefully doing it by volume, but I suspect the differences between spread of the two ways of loading would be minute if they existed at all.

I have only used Pyrodex P in a .45 cal rifle with ball and patch, and weighed the charges, had an ES of 16 FPS. I have since made a few volume measures and acquired some Goex 3f. Will post results when I get back around to playing with it.

 

[webrx]

I was playing with volume vs weight just today

It started because I have a set of Lee Powder measures and wanted to now which one to use to get close to a 20 grains by volume of Triple 7 FFFG load for my Brassie.

Now not sure I was purely scientific in this so dont take my measurements as gospel. But what I did was set my variable volume measure (the same one DJ has above) to 20 grains and 30 grains and weighed 5 charges each.

20 grains (volume) came to an avg of 15.7 grains (weight)
30 grains (volume) came to an avg of 23.1 grains (weight)

so, extrapolating this (not measured) I would calculate that 25 grains volume would be right around 19.4 grains (weight) avg.

So I checked the lee slide chart and then scooped and weighed with the 1.3 cc and 1.6 cc measures

1.3cc (volume) measure weighed in at an avg of 15.51 (15.5)
1.6cc (volume) measure weighted in at an avg of 18.97 (19)

that puts a 1.3 CC measure at right around 18 to 19 grains by volume and a 1.6 measure at around 23 to 24 grains by volume.

BTW, I did also measure 5 loads from a .40 cal cartridge scoop which is supposed to be equivalent to around 19.3 grains (by volume) and I got an avg weight of that came in at 15.96 (call it 16) which is about .3 grains higher in weight than I got from the adjustable measure and .5 grains higher than the 1.3 CC powder measure.

Not sure anyone but me cares, but based on this quick test, it appears that for loading a 1851 .44 cal brassie, I could use a 1.3 CC lee powder measure and be in the ballpark of an 18 grains (by volume) of powder load. Or I could use a 1.6 and be in the ballpark of a 23 to 25 grain (by volume) load.

EDIT: Again - these measurements used Triple 7 FFFG - I have no idea what they would be with real holy black or any other substitute.

YMMV, this is just what I got in a very quick test this afternoon.

Dave

 

[Branko_D]

A cubic centimeter is, basically, 1 gram or 15.4 grains of 'ideal' BP. Actual density of various brands of BP varies but 1 gram per cubic centimeter is in the typical range of actual BP density. Goex is a slight bit more dense then this, while the powder I use (Vesuvit LC, a czech powder) is a bit less dense.

Substitutes are considerably less dense. If you care about manual limitations, remember the figures in the manual are based on volume.

 

[Don McDowell]

Blackpowder charges are expressed in grains weight, subs are expressed in volume. Back in the dark ages when pyrodex first came out Hoydens did print a conversion chart for RS Pyrodex to grains weight. But few muzzleloaders weigh their charges so it became a mute point,and they quit printing that chart.If you find one of the old freebee reload manuals from as late as 85 or so it will have that chart in the back pages.
Blackpowder Cartridge shooters that are serious about accuracy weigh their powder charges. Even in the 1870's Sharps and Remington catalogs expressed the need to weigh charges for the best accuracy.

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

For small arms such as rifles and revolvers since the 18th century anyway, BP has always been measured by volume. partly because it was easy and simple for anyone in the field. and most people were in the field in those days.
A scale while out hunting would not of been practical. Nor is it today.

Another thing BP and subs have a tendency to absorb moisture. While this amount may be minute it still would change the weight a bit.

But while you are at home If you wish to first measure out a charge by volume, then weigh it and then proceed to weigh the others, by all means do it.

But you must first measure by volume all grades of BP and the subs before going by weight as different grains (fg ffg fffg ffffg) will all be slightly different. Possibly even from one brand to another.

But personally I really don't see much advantage to it for general day to day use. Maybe in match shooting, but then likely only in a brass cartridge.
As part of the consistency of each shot is also dependent on equal compression of each and every chamber in a cap and ball.

 

[alsaqr]

i've tried various powder measures over the years. IMO: This is the best one:

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/83...50-to-120-grains-in-10-grain-increments-brass

100 measured grains of blackpowder is heavier than 100 measured grains of any blackpowder substitute. Here is a comparison chart:

http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm


Several times i've experimentend with measured vs weighed charges of blackpowder, Triple Seven, Pyrodex, and JSG. There was little to be gained in accuracy by weighing charges. Weighing charges was not worth the effort and i gave it up.

 

[webrx]

Alsaqr,

Thanks for the link to the chart.

All I was looking for was which lee dipper to use for 20 and 25 grains by volume cuz that was a bit quicker than pouring in the measure and then pouring in the cylinder.

If I had this yesterday, I would not have had to do the testing myself .

Dave

 

[Rattus58]

That's not ornery at all, I was just using what I had on hand from 30 years loading smokeless and wondered why BP/BP subs were not as straight forward with weighed data or at least a "volume grain" vs actual weight data, like we use in metallic reloading.

If you were just using black powder, you could weight them out... and what a pain in the ass that is. You weigh it, you see how much volume that is, you took a horn tip or antler and drilled it out till you fit the volume that you weighed. So rather than have a half a dozen "favorite" volumes for the different things people did with guns back then or between guns back then a volume measure as shown to you is the way to solve that problem.

As to weight... Guns have a maximum charge and in them days, I'm TOLD THAT GENERALLY it was a grain weight of two times bore diameter/caliber. 45 caliber would be 90 grains by weight and 58 or 62 would be in the 120 grain range.

Substitute powders like pyrodex or triple seven have much more energy per grain weight and that is exacerbated by the fact that the powder is lighter by volume as well. However, most substitutes provide a good equivalent charge when compared by VOLUME. The ONLY SAFE way to deal with substitute powders in the field is with a volume measure.

Now if you've worked up a charge that is accurate at a particular volume, you will get a variance in weight of 2or3 grains. If you filled your volume measure, tapped it to settle the powder, filled it again then weighed that charge from a particular bottle or lot, you could weigh out your powders and put them in vials or film canisters in order to have premeasured charges with you in the field and be accurate to an exact weight/volume. Doing this you will discover that the actual grain weight of say pyrodex, is measurably different than the Volume "weight" of the charge. This is why you ALWAYS start off by volume first no matter what you do later.

Aloha...