Is shot placement everything

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skiking

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While I recognize that if you don't hit your target it doesn't matter what round you carry. Yes shot placement is all important and if you don't hit the vitals lethal force isn't going to stop the bad guy unless he chooses to disengage, but..

Are there really people naïve enough to believe that they will good enough shots under extreme stress that you will overcome any stress and hit your target with supreme accuracy and that you will be fine with a .22 when most .380 hollow point rounds don't expand reliably in gelatin with denim?

If you believe you are one of these people, have you ever been in a situation where you have truly feared for your life, somebody shooting at you, a bear charging you or something similar.

I really want to know, are the guys that say "I carry a .22 because shot placement is everything", just absolutely full of it?

I am inclined to think people are full of it because of the size of current 9mm handguns is astonishingly small and have the current opinion that if you cant conceal one of the single stack 9mms on the market you need to stop working the street corner.

Why wouldn't somebody take the added advantage of a larger caliber that reliably expands and penetrates to a depth of ~12" in gelatin and a few layers of denim?
 
Obviously a bigger caliber is better. (I carry .45 ACP). But there are those folks out there, cops, soldiers who have been under fire, etc. who can probably keep their cool better than the rest of us. THere is also the stress of compettion that can get you ready. SOme people can't handle anything larger than a 22 due to disability and many people are killed with 22s every year. I'm certainly not advocating the 22 for self defense but any gun is better than no gun and again, with certain disabilities some are limited to 22s..
 
Essentially, the smaller the gun, and the larger the caliber, make it all the harder to shoot accurately under stress. Especially when one considers the prevailing opinion that "if some is good, then more is better."

"Accuracy" is also a flexible term in this case. Like with animals, lethal areas tend to be measured in inches, not tenths of inches.

Smaller calibers, even in the mini-guns of today, tend to be easier to shoot. That tendency makes them easier to hit with, even when stress enters the picture.

Practice will help BOTH ends of this spectrum of use under stress. There is a kernel of indisputable truth in the statement that shot placement is everything. First, you have to hit. Then, where you hit is going to be important. Bullet expansion isn't required.

In the end, the old adage of "use the biggest bullet that you can accurately control" says much more about gun-fighting than anything else.

Handgun fights for CCW holders also tend to be overwhelmingly close range affairs. Something that many forget. Twenty-five yards and up are truly rare. It used to be that people practiced at 25 yards so as to be better at closer ranges. NOT to expect to engage at such distances.
 
If your not l/e or military 99.9% of the time any caliber will work. For self defense you just have to convince the bg's to go somewhere else. The few that are motivated will need a cns shot to stop immediately. And that's where shot placement comes in. Don't knock the 22. Try firing a 357magnum as fast as you can and a 22 pistol and see the results. Only hits count.
 
Pretty much. Bullet placement, placement and penetration are the three most important things in handgun effectiveness.

Look at the Reagan assignation attempt, two accidentally well placed shots with a .22 were true one shot drops while a poorly place hit on the indented victim left him not knowing he was shot until he saw the blood, although it darn hear killed him an hour later.
 
skiking said:
Are there really people naïve enough to believe that they will good enough shots under extreme stress that you will overcome any stress and hit your target with supreme accuracy and that you will be fine with a .22 when most .380 hollow point rounds don't expand reliably in gelatin with denim?

I am inclined to think people are full of it because of the size of current 9mm handguns is astonishingly small and have the current opinion that if you cant conceal one of the single stack 9mms on the market you need to stop working the street corner.
Click to expand...

Do you have some reason to believe that a small, hard to handle 9mm will make you a better shot than a .22 under stress?

You really believe that the difference in size between a 9mm and a .22 (about 1/16 of an inch on the radius) makes a significant difference in the effective window for shot placement?

skiking said:
I really want to know, are the guys that say "I carry a .22 because shot placement is everything", just absolutely full of it?
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Nope, they understand that shot placement really is everything, not just something to babble about on the internet.
 
I have an acquaintance who, many years (decades) ago now, was told by his wife that someone was coming around the house after he left for work each day. The next day my acquaintance stayed home from work. Part way into the morning, a guy came in his bedroom window. It is assumed from the persence of a large knife that the guy intended to rape the wife. Assumed.

My acquaintance shot him. He fell to the ground, incapacitated, and died without moving from where he fell.

The weapon used: A Ruger MkI .22LR.

I don't know if the intruder was wearing glasses but any covering he had over his head was insufficient to slow down .22LR. From what I heard, the entire magazine load (9 or 10 rounds) passed through a 2" circle of brain before the body had a chance to fall.

That same acquaintance was in the habit of firing 50 rounds per day through that gun. His father owned the indoor range used by the local police and he could use it for free whenever he wanted. He was a pretty decent shot. He had at least one .38 but didn't practice with it as much as he did with the .22.

Is that what you mean by naïve?
 
I may not be everything,,,

I may not be everything,,,
But without it you need to be carrying a 50 BMG.

But seriously,,,
Stopping power is the Joker,,,
Shot placement is the Queen.

Aarond

.
 
I think enough of the advantages of shot placement that if on my nightstand I had a full sized 22 target pistol and a snub nosed 38 and I heard the proverbial bump in the night, I would pick the 22 target pistol over the more powerful smaller gun. But such a choice is unlikely, and in a real situation I wouldn't choose, I would take both. A full sized semi-auto or revolver in a decent caliber is not much different in weight or ease of concealment than a good 22 target pistol and shoots about as well. Particularly with hot weather coming on I'll find situations where the only thing I can carry is a very small semi-auto or revolver in a very light caliber. Something is better than nothing but I can't imagine feeling armed in the same way with a NAA 22 mini-revolver, as I would with a 45ACP or 44 Special.

Yes, I agree with the pre-eminence of shot placement. I've seen too many dramatic stops with a 22, but whenever possible I like to hedge the bet with a little more cartridge.
 
Ed Ames said:
I have an acquaintance who, many years (decades) ago now, was told by his wife that someone was coming around the house after he left for work each day. The next day my acquaintance stayed home from work. Part way into the morning, a guy came in his bedroom window. It is assumed from the persence of a large knife that the guy intended to rape the wife. Assumed.

My acquaintance shot him. He fell to the ground, incapacitated, and died without moving from where he fell.

The weapon used: A Ruger MkI .22LR.

I don't know if the intruder was wearing glasses but any covering he had over his head was insufficient to slow down .22LR. From what I heard, the entire magazine load (9 or 10 rounds) passed through a 2" circle of brain before the body had a chance to fall.
Click to expand...

That is one crazy story! The MK I definitely has the accuracy for shot placement like that, as long as the shooter does. In fact, I believe the Navy Seals have MK II's that are integrally suppressed in their arsenal.

skiking said:
If you believe you are one of these people, have you ever been in a situation where you have truly feared for your life, somebody shooting at you, a bear charging you or something similar.
Click to expand...

I am a combat vet. I have been shot at and I have shot back. The only time I have been charged was by a particularly ornery groundhog...lol. A .22 definitely wouldn't be my first choice for anything bigger than that darn groundhog, but if it was all I had I am confident that I could get the job done with it.

Personally I'll stick to carrying something a little bigger than a .22 but I wouldn't fault someone if that is what they are comfortable with.
 
It depends if you are trying to stop the threat (380 and above with proper shot placement) or encourage the threat to stop (380 and below).

Anything can kill. You need stopping power. 380 can stop. 9mm and above is better but even then bullets do weird things. That's why the gung ho 45 ACP logic is crap. If you like it and shoot it well thats great. Dont believe in some one shot stop magic.

Also...and this will blow your mind if I already got you emotional about your 45 ACP. Id suggest a nice heavy 1911 before many 380s BUT not because of caliber but because they are easier to shoot well. Just much harder to carry.

This is why a small to midsize 9mm is the most reasonable gun to carry. A handgun is a compromise. They aren't powerful and are hard to shoot.
 
I see the opening post as nothing more than antagonistic. The OP already has his opinions about both the .22LR as a defensive weapon, and about those who carry them.
 
IMO shot placement is most important. Many have been killed with one shot of 22 LR. One of my friends was shot in a car chase in the 70's which hit his shoulder and traveled up his neck. Died a hour later trying to get help. I would guess you could even be killed with hi power pellet rifle with precise shot placement.
You hear about people that have been shot with a 22 and not realized it right away. I seriously don't think there would be any question you'd been shot if hit by a 357, 44, or 45. They're would diffinetly be more felt shock from a 230 grain than a 40 grain.
 
Even a heart shot can't be absolutely counted on to stop & drop immediately.

CNS strike, in most cases yes.
Spinal cord, yes.
Cranial strike, depending on caliber, most often yes.
Those can be very difficult to pull off reliably.
Add stress & movement, and the odds are not in your favor.
Denis
 
skiking said:
I really want to know, are the guys that say "I carry a .22 because shot placement is everything", just absolutely full of it?
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Yes. And no.

Shot placement is the most important thing. It is not, however, everything. A hit with a 22 is indeed better than a miss with a 45, but a hit with a 45 is far better than either.

IME, advocates of very small cartridges for defense are usually rationalizing to justify a choice already made, rather than being rational, analyzing the requirements of the situation and rationally choosing a good solution.

They base their decision on what might happen in the best case, rather than what is likely to happen in the real world.

"One shot in the eye will do" or "8 shots in the heart will stop anybody", ignoring how unlikely these results are in a realistic scenario.

This is why stories of isolated incidents where a 22 worked are irrelevant. It is entirely possible that a 22 will solve the problem satisfactorily.

It's just a lot more likely to happen with a 45.
 
Is shot placement everything?
Click to expand...

No. Make a perfect shot on an elephant with a .22 and it ain't gonna matter. Shot placement with an appropriate firearm for the intended target is very important, but it's still not everything. While there will always be extremes(I'm sure someone has killed an elephant with a .22, just as I'm sure someone has stopped a burglary when they shot the burglar in the foot) the us of appropriate weapons, appropriate ammo from appropriate distances all are factors. A shot from a 12 ga. with buckshot a 10' is appropriate, at 100 yards not so much.

This is not brain surgery........but common sense.
 
Shot placement is not everything....but it's way ahead of what's in second place.

Obviously you need stopping power, but there has to be a combination of the two to be effective, and to me shot placement is the more important of the two. In my experience from being involved in shootings and investigating them, once a person is hit the fight is usually over. They are too busy retreating or checking for leaks to put up effective resistance. Of course there are exceptions, but in all of the situations that I have witnessed, a hit equals a stop. Not a death necessarily, but a cessation of hostilities and that is what we are trying to achieve. And multiple hits make it even more sure.

This has been true with everything from a .22rf, a .25acp up through a .45acp. So shot placement may not be everything, but it is the biggest thing.
 
I see the opening post as nothing more than antagonistic. The OP already has his opinions about both the .22LR as a defensive weapon, and about those who carry them.
Click to expand...

^^^^ yep

Shot placement with an appropriate firearm for the intended target is very important
Click to expand...

^^^^^ This

It's important to note also that there are people out there who are dissables, or have injuies that don't allow them to handle anythin more than a .22. For them, yes, shot placement is everything. Don't assume that the entire world fits into the same parameters as you do. They don't.

If they did, the "perfect handgun" would have been designed a long time ago, would work perfect for everyone, and the only competition would be between manufacturers making clones of the same design.

So is shot placement everything? No, but it sure as heck is really important.

Carry what you think will cause the quickest and most effective end to a life threatening attack. This is based on the effectiveness of the tool, as well as your ability to use that tool. If that is a 500 magnum, fine. If it's a .22, fine. If it's pepper spray, fine. The validity of the tool is irrelevant if it works for the person choosing to employ it.
 
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Guns in general, are all about being able to hit what you are aiming at. If you aren't able to hit a softball at 50 feet, you probably won't hit a human heart when it's in motion. It's really about you practicing with the gun more than which gun or round you use. Granted you need a decent caliber, but that does absolutely nothing if you can't shoot well. Spending the time on hitting moving targets at between 5 and 50 feet with your gun of choice is probably the best thing you can do.
If you can take a softball sized ball and bounce it or tie a string, "like a zip line" and swing it,, you will get an idea of just how hard it is to actually hit something when it's moving.
Once you can do it with your first couple of shots, you will be much more capable of hitting a vital area on a moving target.
If you are lucky enough to have an affordable range that has pop up targets or something other than a piece of stationary paper to shoot at, it will be a great training aid.
 
Shot placement is everything. Without you are just making noise and hoping to scare the bad man away. Although I have never done it I would be perfectly confident to carry a Ruger MK II as a anti personnel round. One range I used to work at allowed us to have a person behind a berm who would roll clay pigeons across the range as fast as they could and you had to hit them on the fly. They would bounce up and down while rolling. You would be amazed at how quickly you can learn to hit them with a MK II. People would walk up and say "you'll never hit that with a handgun". The look on their faces was priceless when we did.
 
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