"Shot placement"

[jackdanson]

I hear this thrown around all the time, usually in calibre wars, that shot placement is king. This is usually in reference to aiming at critical parts of a BG's body in order to stop the threat immediately. I understand that a defensive shot to the head or vital organs can cause an instant incapacitation, but I still believe that in the stress/intensity of a defensive situation aiming for the center-presented-mass is a superior way to train and shoot defensively in the majority of situations.

By this I mean that aiming for the center of the target increases the chance of a hit. A hit, vital organs or no, is better than a miss of the vitals. IMHO training to shoot someone in the vital organs is a waste of time, if you hit center mass (usually the torso) you are incidentally going to be hitting vital organs too. Imagine 2 targets the size of the heart and brain at 7 yards.. not too hard to hit. Now, imagine those targets are darting around.. would get a bit challenging!! Now, imagine those targets darting around AND shooting back!!!! Darn near impossible!!! Therefore I believe talk of "aiming for vitals" is a bit of a fantasy in the vast majority of defensive situations.

Any opinions, points, counterpoints!?

(all of this is based on defensive pistol shooting, btw)

 

[Bubba613]

Seven yards is actually a little far in SD shooting. Typically they are closer than that.
Anyway, yes shot placement is king. That doesn't mean you really have much control over it. You have about 1 second to draw, aim and fire under the most stressful confusing conditions. That doesn't make for well aimed shots.
Once I listed about 10 different factors that would affect shot results. The shooter can control about 3 of them.
So the phrase "I'd rather be lucky than good" really does mean something.

ETA, and even if you hit the heart straight on the assailant still has about 5 seconds' worth of oxygen to do something.

 

[expvideo]

You shouldn't plan on any particular area to be shooting at. Practice COM and head shots equally when you are at the range. In a real fight, the best shot is the shot you can make. Take whatever target presents itself. A close range gun fight is going to be won by the person that hits the other person the fastest and most effectively. Don't think about it, just shoot the part that you can hit, be it COM or head. Take the target of opportunity, not the target that you have convinced yourself is the "right target to shoot". If all you can hit reliably is the attacker's foot, then by God you had better shoot that f-er in the foot. A bullet in your attacker is a bullet in your attacker. Put as many of them as you have to in whatever you can.

 

[Rifleman 173]

Center of mass shots are the accepted way by most shooters to stop bad guys. Head shots are done when the person is stunned after being hit with COM shots and they are not moving all around. The theory is that if you do enough damage to the body or the CNS, central nervous system, then you win the gunfight and live another day. Trouble is that most people do not take into consideration that the bad guy might be intoxicated on drugs or alcohol so their pain receptors and shock related sensors in their bodies may be detrimentally effected enough to cause a very delayed reaction or even completely stop a major reaction. So Johnnie Dirtbag may require a couple of head shots to bring him to a complete non-threatening state.

 

[bikerdoc]

Good post Jack, Bubba I the way you think!
You achieve shot placement by practice. If COM is all you got, go for it.
I really like what John Conner said once.- Dont stop shooting when you think they are no longer a threat, stop shoooting when the BG knows he is no longer a threat.
A little bit of streetwise bravado in that statement. but good food for thought.
All that brings me to my pet theory of planning. Using your brain, If the BG is in your house your layered defense failed. Too often we default to gun, when a simple "hardening" of our homes would be a deterant" A little thinking and planning goes a long way, but we all know things never go the way we plan, so get creative in thinking about the things that could prevent a shoot out in your home.
Just my .02
Best wishes in the new year to all.

 

[wep45]

practice is what makes good defensive methods better. when you practice aim at the vital areas of the target. the more you practice the better you may become.
after a while, point and shoot, will become second nature to you.

with practice, when a real life situation presents itself, you may be above average in getting the job done.

 

[Kleanbore]

From Bubba613:

Seven yards is actually a little far in SD shooting. Typically they are closer than that.
Anyway, yes shot placement is king. That doesn't mean you really have much control over it. You have about 1 second to draw, aim and fire under the most stressful confusing conditions. That doesn't make for well aimed shots.
Once I listed about 10 different factors that would affect shot results. The shooter can control about 3 of them.
So the phrase "I'd rather be lucky than good" really does mean something.

ETA, and even if you hit the heart straight on the assailant still has about 5 seconds' worth of oxygen to do something.

Great post!

Might you re-post your earlier list?

 

[Geno]

In the many Tactical Shooting and Advanced Tactical Shooting courses that I have completed, the standard has been point-shooing to COM until the bad-guy stops. Our pistols' sights were taped over, so precision-aiming would not have been possible anyhow.

Shots ranged from muzzle-against the perp to 25 yards, while stationary, while moving, firing individually and in firing in pairs, single round, double-tap, triple-tap and empty-the-magazine. The rationale of COM was to disrupt the central nervous system, which according to the instructors is the sole way to assure a prompt stop. This also is the reason that the instructors liked the 9mm versus any other round, simply due to numeric advantage. The more shots that one can launch, the higher the probability of a hit to the spine.

All I can say is I hope and pray that I never have to learn first-hand. I have had a few friends who were involved in defensive shootings. None were prosecuted. The universal reflection that they have offered up as they guest-visited to speak on their experience is that it didn't go down anything like they expected, it was very close-in, very fast, completely unexpected, and all developed tunnel-vision. BTW, as each speaks of their experiences, I can still see a bit of PTSD in their eyes. I think they will live with the experience for many more years. JMHO.

Doc2005

 

[VegasOPM]

I'm a big fan of aimed fire and lots of practice. I can make 2 COM hits at 10 yds in less than 2 seconds all day long. Shooting a steel match last Sunday, I was able to draw and fire 5 shots on 5 seperate 10" plates between 10 and 12 yards from me in 3.5- 4.0 seconds (5 times in a row) The really good guys can do that in 2.5 seconds or so. It isn't that hard, it just takes the commitment to practice a lot. I don't believe on relying on luck, when all I can control is skill.

 

[expvideo]

I'm a big fan of aimed fire and lots of practice. I can make 2 COM hits at 10 yds in less than 2 seconds all day long. Shooting a steel match last Sunday, I was able to draw and fire 5 shots on 5 seperate 10" plates between 10 and 12 yards from me in 3.5- 4.0 seconds (5 times in a row) The really good guys can do that in 2.5 seconds or so. It isn't that hard, it just takes the commitment to practice a lot. I don't believe on relying on luck, when all I can control is skill.

In a real fight, you need to be able to get some acceptable hits to COM or head at a rate more like 2-3 per second at the slowest. Work on double taps. In a fight, you are likely to be a lot closer than 10 meters, and you are likely to need to get as many fairly well aimed shots off as quickly as possible, which takes precident over closeness to the 10 ring. Shot placement counts, don't get me wrong, but placing the shot is more important than where you place it. Fight dirty, don't fight by some kind of rulebook in your head.

 

[Old Guy]

ETA, and even if you hit the heart straight on the assailant still has about 5 seconds' worth of oxygen to do something.

Met a Female LEO at a seminar (guest speaker) she was shot through the heart by a gang banger, he and his girl friend targeted the female driver of a new SUV (Had no idea she was a LEO) as she exited her POV in her driveway, gun belt over shoulder, she was shot!

Retrieving her pistol from it's holster, she chased said gang banger down, around her car, and shot him. One of her two room (house) mates, a paramedic, responded with cell phone, directed an emergency response team to the exact location, with exact information on the patients condition, and did what she could to stabilize her friend till the responding unit arrived.

The girl friend was found hiding 100 yds away, much later, and told a tale of just wanting the car, I forget the exact time of call to arrival, just minutes any how. Her will to live was the reason she did, was the consensus of the Dr's who operated.

 

[nrthwoods]

I aggree whole heartedly. What you train or practice to do is what you'll be good at, so one should try to get as fast a shot with confidence they can. LE is trained (though not the best) to shoot for the center mass. The only surefire way to cause an immediate incapaciation is to strike the brain, or the top of the spinal cord. Practicing solely for this or aiming for vitals is almost practicing to fail, IMO it is not realistic to rely on this method.

One key thing is your choice of ammunition, regardless of calliber, focusing primarily on it's penetration. Without striking one of the two forementioned areas the quickest way they will be incapacitated is by bleeding out. Also, taking whatever shot presents itself, you may be firing at them at an angle, so you want to be confident your round will push deep enough to be able to reach the vitals should one be in the path. I recall researching this and seeing a minimum of 12" penetration should be met. Aswell as the psychological/physiological factors of the individual, in addition to the possibility of disassociative drugs, the body has a tendancy not to relay pain in such a situation. Their adrenaline would be pumping, and if mortally wounded your body's focus will be surviving, and they may not feel any pain whatsoever until a later time if the individual is motivated.

After penetration, the wider the diameter of the permanant cavity the better. The temporary cavity created isn't really so important in these terms, it's the permanant cavity what will stop them. Hollow points will play an effect here, but will also decrease their penetration. Also consider, that most these would be targets would be clothed, denim or the like will actually 'cone' the bullet nose and cause a HP round to penetrate more, and expand less.

If the oppourtunity arises, that you feel hands down confident you can make a headshot, and are left with no options, by all means take it. I'm just having trouble thinking of such a scenario where employing deadly force would be neccisary.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Two good articles on blade attacks to anatomy that one would believe would result in a "instant incapacitation", and yet they didn't. Some through&through.
Low velocity ball ammo, or rounds that fail to expand, have been known to produce very similar results.

Dubious Quick-kill 1
Dubious Quick-kill 2

 

[22lr]

I agree with the OP, id rather hit a guy a few times in center of mass. Not to mention a jury is going to think it a little strange that you just plugged the guy in the head. Anyways its a larger target but also the most likely place to see armor so it never hurts to have the skill to take head shots.

 

[mbt2001]

Peter Capstick in one of his books talks about a bushman who was mauled by a leopard, Capstick said he had trouble knowing how to talk to the guy, he was literally inside out. In any event, the Bushman hiked a few miles back to camp, calmly laid on the bed and told what happened and many hours (pain free apparently) later he expired.

Capstick made the remark that he had seen Bushman that could go through things that would have killed anyone and live through them or survive for a time, but could keel over and die from being cursed by a Shaman...

What is my point? I think there is a psychological affect to getting shot and that most people succumb to those effects because of what they believe to happen when you are shot. There have been many people shot, who not realizing they had been hit live for quite some time. They then sit down, realize they have been hit and die...

Food for thought...

 

[Doc_Jude]

"What is the Matrix?"

 

[Bubba613]

Might you re-post your earlier list?

In no particular order and not exhaustive:

-Lighting
-Temperature
-Physical condition of assailant
-Mental attitude of assailant
-Clothing worn by assailant
-Distance to assailant
-Presentation of assailant (i.e. facing you, half profile, back to you etc)
-Number of assailants
-Shot placement
-Caliber
-Bullet weight, style, and velocity

So the results of shooting a 280lb weight lifter wearing a heavy leather jacket turned sideways to you and coked up are going to vary from shooting a 175lb skinny guy wearing a t-shirt facing front to you. No matter what gun you're shooting.
Temp is a factor because in warmer temps people wear less clothing but also their veins and arteries are closer to the surface of the skin.

You can stack the deck somewhat in your favor but the truth is that weird things happen. I think, if it's your time, it's your time.

 

[Armed N. Free]

Excellent list bubba613!

Our instructor told us the best placed shot is the one that never has to leave the chamber. Meaning - you somehow took charge of the scenario and restrained / incapacitated / diffused the assailant with techniques/tools more reliable or controllable than a tiny, speeding ballistic piece of metal. Of course the response is entirely dependant on the threat presented.

Then bubba613's list comes into play, along with additional considerations such as over penetration; what's behind the target (collateral damage), flying a shot or two (or half a dozen trying to get a COM shot while soiling your shorts and trying to get oxygen into your now very constricted lungs - adrenaline rush and tunnel vision suck) and looking for barriers to put in between yourself and the assailant or placing yourself as a shield between the assailant and those you are trying to protect.

My friend had to kill an attacker who went after his K9 partner with a knife and then turned on him. The officer couldn't shoot the BG as he attacked the dog because of bullet trajectory and had to draw the attacker to himself. Then he had to keep an eye on his K9 laying bleeding on the ground and verbally order the guy to drop. The BG only had a knife and yet he slowly kept walking at my friend presenting the knife to the lower front attacking posture. My friend had to finally fire and back-up, repeat fire and back-up a couple of more times until the guy dropped! All over nothing! He was just fueling his patrol car and this drifter saw him from across the street, walked over and started threatening him before pulling the knife. The K9 partner lived but had to be removed from service. My friend has never recovered from the PTSD. None of the training scenarios worked. The K9 was immediately taken out and the officer's shot placement with massive firepower (45ACP) at close range was not as effective as he had expected from his training.

Training is important. A shot placement plan is of course necessary. It gives us a sense of security. But I think in the end, if everything goes your way and you survive to serve, protect and fight another day, it was largely miraculous because none of the best plan has to go right. Murphy was an optimist.

 

[wrs840]

Uhh...

A pelvis shot first (.38 minimum) will instantly buckle forward and twist the BG, minimizing any possibility of accurate return fire... and there's big blood vessels there being hit by probable shatter of some big bones... Your barrel will naturally lift for the second-tap shot which may be now be more laterally and therefore more effectively through CM. Headshot is #3 now only if necessary.

Where am I wrong?

Les

 

[expvideo]

A pelvis shot first (.38 minimum) will instantly buckle forward and twist the BG, minimizing any possibility of accurate return fire... and there's big blood vessels there being hit by probable shatter of some big bones... Your barrel will naturally lift for the second-tap shot which may be now be more laterally and therefore more effectively through CM. Headshot is #3 now only if necessary.

Where am I wrong?

You're not. I've been arguing this one for a while. Liqiud reacts violently to bullets. Your liquids are stored in your bladder, heart and skull. All react pretty violently with large caliber bullets.

On top of that, completely missing the bladder, the pelvis itself being destroyed by a bullet will almost instantly stop an attacker. Even if they don't feel the excruciating pain due to hard drugs, they will still be physically incapacitated.

It's also a great way to escalate your level of lethality with each shot. Pelvis, COM, Head. All very lethal, but each slightly more so than the other.

I personally think that it is best to try to run a three-shot string starting in the pelvis and ending in the head. That is of course if you have the opportunity to pick your shots. If you're close, just shoot what you can hit and keep shooting things until the threat stops. While 1 shot to the head is enough, 0 shots because you were so focused on hitting the head that you weren't able to get a shot off is not nearly as good as 8 shots to the feet, hands, forearms and side. Of course the head is more effective, but hitting something is better than hitting nothing. Just shoot them. And keep doing it until they aren't a threat.

 

[CDH]

The Mozambique Drill technique has been discussed elsewhere, and if used, would take care of pretty much any situation mentioned in this thread.

Firing three shots, 2 to COM and 1 to the head makes a lot of sense.
The first two makes the BG slow down enough to quit wiggling (while he contemplates his poor choice of career) so you can take careful aim for the third shot coming, and the third to end his carreer.

Most ranges don't allow rapid fire shooting, but I have access to a private range where I often practice the Mozambique Drill, shooting two at the center of the target and the third aimed shot 12 inches above the first two.

Jeff Cooper learned it from one of his students and liked the concept so much that he gave it the name and added it to his training regimen.

 

[Bubba613]

While 1 shot to the head is enough, 0 shots because you were so focused on hitting the head that you weren't able to get a shot off is not nearly as good as 8 shots to the feet, hands, forearms and side. Of course the head is more effective, but hitting something is better than hitting nothing. Just shoot them. And keep doing it until they aren't a threat.

Bingo.
Under extreme stress things like aim go away very quickly. Sure, it would be nice to line up your sights cooly chanting front sight press and dispatch the guy with 1 well aimed shot to the head.
In real life I suspect it doesn't happen like that. It's more like, I will do anything to get this guy to stop coming towards me, even repeating what I know ought to work but hasn't yet.

 

[mgkdrgn]

To my mind, hitting "center of mass" IS shot placement. If the first two delivered there don't get the job done, then you might have to consider getting a little more specific (head shot).

 

[James T Thomas]

say it isn't so

"JackD:"

I would add that your wording "talk of aiming for the vitals" is a bit of fantasy, is confusing at first read.

I haven't given it thought as to how you should word it -according to your the statements made in your post, but aiming for the vitals is just the thing to do.

Whether or not you can place there, because of your enemy darting around and the relative smallness of the heart or brain; then what else should be your aiming point?

For example: The liver is a larger organ and damage to it can be fatal.
The spinal column; provided you are shooting a penetrator round, is narrow, but central, and lengthy. How about the neck? Arteries, large veins, trachea,
and cervical vertebrae; but again, relatively small.
I don't think training to hit the vital organs -they lie in the center of mass, is a waste of time at all.

Yes, you may not strike the listed two, but they are at the COM for the torso and head, and so, misses which do hit the enemy somewhere else -an incidental hit as you state, then give cause for the caliber arguments rather than not aiming for the vitals as implied.

Or, perhaps, to give you credit, you may be implying that it is doubtful, even when aiming for the vitals, under the difficulties listed, that is "field conditions"; that hits on those bulls eyes would happen.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I lean pretty much toward John Farnam's approach (the 'zipper technique') when carrying a service pistol. I learned it under his tutelage with a Glock 19, I don't think it would work as well with the J frame I usually carry and multiple assailants though.

Part of the penalty for carrying a J frame is having to shoot more sparsely. Maybe a two-shot zipper if circumstances permit? Otherwise with a J frame where multiple assailants are concerned, it has to be "tea party rules" (each one gets one until all are served, then we worry about seconds). I try for the solar plexus in practice in that case, but I'll take whatever target is presented, when it's presented, if it comes to it.

lpl
====
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2000/15Nov00.html

15 Nov 00

Aiming point:

I am now teaching students, when shooting at a standing human, to put the first round into the navel, than move upward into the thoracic triangle with subsequent shots. We're doing this, because placing one's front sight immediately on the upper chest of an attacker makes it very difficult to track the target when he subsequently ducks and/or sidesteps.

When the front sight goes immediately to the zone just below the neck, and the felon suddenly ducks, the shooter is left with a blank sight picture! He must then drop his sights and search for the target. When the front sight goes no further up than the navel before the first shot is fired, no matter how the felon moves, he can't get away from follow-up shots.

I've been teaching it this way for some time now, but the technique was critically substantiated when we had students engage the famous Bob Berry "Ducking Target" during a training program in Pennsylvania several weeks ago. Students who automatically put their front sights too high invariably lost the target.

Several friends who teach the same thing call it the "Zipper Technique." Fair enough!

/John
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"Dr Jim Williams, an emergency-room surgeon, presented a wonderful class on bullet placement. He has done a good deal of work on the subject, and his conclusions were confirmation that we're teaching this subject correctly. For example, we learned that lower-abdominal wounds result in significantly more fatalities than do penetrating chest wounds! The "zipper" technique that we are currently teaching fits in with what Dr Williams has seen. Lower-abdominal wounds are debilitating and disorienting in the short term and fatal in the long term. Bill Hickok was right all along!" - http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2006/23Jan06.html
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"In this regard, John [Farnam] teaches the “zipper” method. The objective is to turn off the attacker and stop the aggression as quickly as possible. This usually means inflicting lethal shots—shooting at the navel and then shooting up the attacker’s midline, like a zipper, until the attacker stops coming at you." - http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/farnam_article.htm
=========================

John [Farnam] emphasizes precise shooting with 100% accuracy. As he says, if you don't hit what you want to hit, then by definition you hit something you didn't want to hit. On the range that is only a dirt berm, but in a real self-defense situation it is likely to be someone or something that didn't need to be shot. For shooting drills we primarily used static and rotating steel targets, but we did use some IPSC type humanoid targets for practicing what he calls the zipper technique - four shots starting centered just above the beltbuckle and ending in the upper chest, with the objective being to strike the major north-south blood vessels, and if enough penetration, the spine. We also practiced close-in brain-stem shots -- two shots to the nose (assuming your opponent is facing you head on). - http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/viewtopic.php?t=7479