Is the AR forward assist necessary

[Gene_WI]

I am starting on building a K.I.S.S. AR. I plan on using an A1 upper and a 20" 1:7 barrel for the build. I am wondering about the necessity of the forward assist?

Should I use an A1 upper without a forward assist. The positives would be, less parts, less weight, a slender profile. What are the negatives? I have been shooting an M4rgery for a couple of years, and have never used the forward assist for anything. Hypothetically, it seems like a very bad idea. Why would I want to jam a dirty or defective cartridge further into the chamber, instead of simply ejecting it?

 

[Ghost Tracker]

Mine has one but I'm like you...I've fired THOUSANDS of rounds out of it (as well as other ARs) & NEVER needed the foward assist. Anyone around here ever NEEDED one?

 

[fletcher]

Mine doesn't have a forward assist, and I haven't yet needed it.

 

[mikec]

The FAL was designed and built without a FA, one can be retrofitted by using an Israeli bolt and charging handle. Some do, some do not. The military decided that it was needed, since you are not the US military you can omit it if you wish.

Of course, if the SHTF and the zombies do come after you and the only rounds you have left are slightly out of spec you might be in trouble.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

When your ammo is made by the lowest bidder, you would want to be able to cram them into the chamber too.

 

[redneckdan]

I only used the forward assist once and it only dug me deeper. instead of needing to merely pull back the charging handle and cycle another round, I now needed to go find a cleaning rod and a hammer.:banghead:

 

[308win]

I bought some Wolf 62gr and had a problem with extraction. The forward assist didn't help but it did accomplish its design objective which is to seat the bolt.

 

[Gene_WI]

When your ammo is made by the lowest bidder, you would want to be able to cram them into the chamber too.

Lets think about this.

Lets say you are using reloaded ammo, made with old or defective cases. You cram a round into the chamber. It fires, but you get a case head separation. Now the rifle is useless, and requires disassembly and a specialized tool to clear the jam.

I am interested in this question, from a scholarly perspective. Is the forward assist really necessary, or does it invite disaster.

 

[cracked butt]

The dished out part of the bolt carrier can be used to close the bolt by pushing it closed with a thumb. The upside is that if you can't chamber a round with your thumb, you aren't going to jam the rifle up like you would by hammering on the forward assist. The downside is the bolt carrier gets hot.

I've not needed the forward assist yet.

 

[41magsnub]

In the military it was very necessary for shooting blanks. About 10 rounds in the rifle would become a bolt action with a required forward assist.

I never needed it with live rounds.

 

[kBob]

Ghost Tracker,

"Anyone around here ever NEEDED one?"

Yes, more than once and folks around me needed one on more than one occassion.

These events were in the bad old days of M-16A1 rifles and Sporter-1 (which did not have one but needed it) and LSA and PL-Special for lubricants.

I recently took a class where the instructor spoke of not using the Forward Assist because he knew of a rifle "blown up" by one being used. I have great respect for that person, but do not see how using the Forward assist ONLY could have casued that.

Many folks teach, including the Army, to rap the magazine upward to insure it seats, then pull back the charging handle and release it when there is a failure to feed THEN use the Forward assist.

Guess what? the AR-15 extractor snaps over the rim of a cartridge as the cartridge either fully seats of has enough friction to allow the bolts forward motion to over come the leverage of the extractor and its spring. If a cartridge does not seat, it is more than just possible that the extractor has not engaged.

Jerking back the charging handle and releasing it simply means the bolt may well leave the round partially chambered and strip another round as it comes forward.

This is the main cause of "double feeds" Usually double feeds generally simply wedge the bullet of the new round into the loaking area of the chamber end of the barrel and may need a cleaning rod to clear, but can generally be cleared by some convoluted finger work after dropping tha magazine. SOme times however the point of the second bullet strikes the primer of the partially chambered round....can you say kablooee?

Thus it is best to FIRST use the Forward assist then rap the magzine then work the action to eject the problem round and contunue to march.

Win forced to load 20 round magazines or 30 rounders to full capacity there were multiple failures to feed the first or second rounds thus we used in effect 18 round and 27 round magazines. Usually the first round fired because we were taught when charging from a new magazine to ALWAYS attempt to use the FOrward assist so the round was forced forward and the extractor snapped over the rim.

With the SP1 or an USAF M-16 there was not a convinent way to force that first or second or dirty or dented round forwar to insure the extractor functioned, I saw folks attempt to use the cutt out in the bolt carrier for the ejection port cover, and I saw them slice up fingers and thumbs or burn them. Thus double feeds were FAR mor common with the rifles without forward assists.

When I was a range officer on a club range I used to watch folks shooting AR-15s that though they had malfunctions as I watched them on the range tell me later that they never had a malfunction through the xthousands of round they had fired. Not saying anyone here is like that but I have personally seen that behavior a goodly number of times.

I personally think the forward assit is a good thing and contributes to safe operation when used properly.

What military or police organization (penny pinching lowest bidder types all) have opted in the last two decades or so to do with the AR upper with fewer parts and a less snagging side?

If you just want a gun that looks like an SP-1 to look at and admire ....though were you might find a fenceless slabsided lower I do not know..... go for it.

If you plan to shoot the rifle consider the pluses and minuses of the Forward assist then make your own decicssion.

-Bob Hollingsworth

 

[Derek Zeanah]

With an M16 I've needed it with blanks (frequently), and with live rounds. Of course, that was when firing from the prone position in the mud.

So yeah, I personally like having them. Having said that I've never needed one when shooting at the range, as most problems I've run into have been misfeeds from using bum magazines. (When I say "the range" here I'm talking about the standard covered concrete-floored range you see around here. The "lie in the mud and shoot to qualify" range mentioned in the first paragraph is a whole 'nother story...)

 

[TheLaxPlayer]

Personally I'd rather have it there just in case it's needed one day, but if I was just shooting at the range I wouldn't use it for the reasons previously stated. Now if somebody was shooting at me, it might be a different story.

 

[Gene_WI]

kBob, thank you for a very good write up.

I have a follow up question. If you have a failure to chamber mid mag, do you use the forward assist? Have you ever seen a case head separation in an AR?

 

[rcmodel]

My position was that using one on a round that will not chamber may just drive it into the chamber so tightly that you can neither get it fully locked to shoot it, or extract it unfired with the charge handle.

That leaves the bolt carrier sticking back into the buffer tube far enough that you can't even get the rifle opened up to work on it from the bottom without a stock wrench to remove the buffer tube.

IMHO: The only time the forward assist should be used is after a mag change or chamber-check to insure the bolt is fully locked.

Immediate action drill on a round that won't chamber by itself should be to eject it and try another round.

Not drive it into the chamber so tightly you can't get it back out without an armorers tool kit.


rcmodel

 

[BoogerB]

Yes, I use it with the wallyworld remington specials. for some reason they hate to chamber on the first magazine with over 25 loaded.

Upper is a stag "m4" but obviously without the feed ramps.... yet

Higher quality ammo, even reloads all work just fine. Just that damn remmy 42grn junk.

 

[buzz_knox]

Eugene Stoner only included it at the Army's direction and over his objections. His reasoning was that if a round wouldn't chamber, the likely cause was debris in the chamber, on the round or bad ammunition. In any event, ramming said debris or bad ammo into the chamber would just be compounding the problem.

Most instructors I've had agreed that the forward assist was best utilized by keeping one's mitts off it. It relies on a couple of roller pins that will break if heavily used, turning the rifle into an unwieldy club.

 

[trueblue1776]

I've used my fwd assist on my AR-15 a handful of times. If it is your home defense gun why not add a cheap safety feature? if you never use it, it still cost you only a couple of bucks.

I've never had a separation on my reloads, I wouldn't build an AR without a fwd assist.

 

[BigG]

It the AR forward assist necessary

Not to me. I have shot quite a bit with an AR-15 and never needed it. It is better to eject something that doesn't chamber than to try to cram it in. JMTC

 

[HorseSoldier]

I have never needed the forward assist to get a sticky live round into the chamber on an AR/M16/M4, and would agree with earlier posters who suggested this can only make the problem worse.

However, I use the forward assist every time I'm on the range when doing a deliberate load and verifying the bolt did strip a round out of the mag and chamber it. Due to the importance of being able to do this drill when it might really matter, I'd consider the FA on an AR to be essential. If you're only looking for a range gun with zero possibility of ever using it defensively (and no intention of doing any kind of tactical competition with it, as well), I'd think it's not so important.

 

[buzz_knox]

However, I use the forward assist every time I'm on the range when doing a deliberate load and verifying the bolt did strip a round out of the mag and chamber it. Due to the importance of being able to do this drill when it might really matter, I'd consider the FA on an AR to be essential.

Why would this insure a round has been chambered, rather than showing that the bolt closed on an empty chamber?

A better solution might be to note the position of the top round in the mag, load the weapon and then check the top round. That'll verify that a round has been chambered, and is the method taught by Rogers and Awerbuck.

 

[possum]

In the military it was very necessary for shooting blanks. About 10 rounds in the rifle would become a bolt action with a required forward assist.

ain't that the truth

 

[rino451]

However, I use the forward assist every time I'm on the range when doing a deliberate load and verifying the bolt did strip a round out of the mag and chamber it. Due to the importance of being able to do this drill when it might really matter, I'd consider the FA on an AR to be essential.

Why would this insure a round has been chambered, rather than showing that the bolt closed on an empty chamber?

A better solution might be to note the position of the top round in the mag, load the weapon and then check the top round. That'll verify that a round has been chambered, and is the method taught by Rogers and Awerbuck.

He means that he chamber checks and then uses the FA to make sure the bolts has again gone into battery.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Yeah, what rino451 said.

 

[buzz_knox]

Now I understand. When I do a chamber check, I just push on the bolt itself just before closing the dust cover.