blackhawk2000
member
Yes and no. No I wouldn't use it to force a round into the chamber. Yes I would use it, after I checked the chamber to insure a round stripped off the mag, and it didn't have enough spring pressure to fully close the bolt.
Is the AR forward assist necessary
- Thread starter Gene_WI
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Snipe315
Member
I won't own an AR15 without one
Used my FA in Somolia Africa to chamber a round that wouldn't because of some sand jamming it (there was lots of that over there) when some skinnies didn't like us passing thru their hood (there were lots of them over there too).
I will never own an AR15 without one.
"Nuff said".
Used my FA in Somolia Africa to chamber a round that wouldn't because of some sand jamming it (there was lots of that over there) when some skinnies didn't like us passing thru their hood (there were lots of them over there too).
I will never own an AR15 without one.
"Nuff said".
My only experience is from an M-16 class I took. The instructor told us to never use it to fix a malfunction.
He told us the only plausible use for it was if you were in a situation where you needed to chamber a round very quietly, you could ease the bolt into position and then use the FA to make sure it was in battery.
He told us the only plausible use for it was if you were in a situation where you needed to chamber a round very quietly, you could ease the bolt into position and then use the FA to make sure it was in battery.
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10-Ring
Member
I haven't needed to use mine & don't know anyone who has..but I do know at least one guy that made his decision an this upper receiver based on having one or not
IMO, the average civilian that only shoots an AR at the range doesn't really need the forward assist. I had to use the FA on several occasions while in the Army. When you are rolling in the sand/mud it is needed. I was taught to never force a round into the chamber but to assist it. I have served in just about every type of environment from jungle, to desert, to the arctic.
86thecat
Member
Have been told the forward assist is to make sure the bolt locks when chambering a round quietly, but have found a good slap on a bad round will jam things up nicely.
Dionysusigma
Member
What unit were you in?Snipe315: Used my FA in Somolia Africa to chamber a round that wouldn't because of some sand jamming it (there was lots of that over there) when some skinnies didn't like us passing thru their hood (there were lots of them over there too).
I will never own an AR15 without one.
"Nuff said".
Oohrah
Member
Bob K, you nailed it +1. To the blank shooter, the system already
pukes the gases back into the action. When you restrict the gas flow
with a blank device and a cartridge with really nasty burning powder, the
residue builds up very rapidly. With the Garands we use for Military
Honors funerals, it's piston system allow many blank firings before a
noticable effect happens. They are cleaned after every clip or second
clip as we are in a damp environment. Nothing attracts rust and corrosion
better than powder residue. That forward assist was an add on when
it was found out in the early part of Nam, that action will fail to feed and
extract in damp and dirty. It was not a cure all, as there were other design
problems. It did help alot.
pukes the gases back into the action. When you restrict the gas flow
with a blank device and a cartridge with really nasty burning powder, the
residue builds up very rapidly. With the Garands we use for Military
Honors funerals, it's piston system allow many blank firings before a
noticable effect happens. They are cleaned after every clip or second
clip as we are in a damp environment. Nothing attracts rust and corrosion
better than powder residue. That forward assist was an add on when
it was found out in the early part of Nam, that action will fail to feed and
extract in damp and dirty. It was not a cure all, as there were other design
problems. It did help alot.
RockyMtnTactical
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I see no drawback to it, and I use it quite often actually, for quietly chambering rounds...
Titan6
member
I use it all the time to advance the round into the chamber. Almost never at the range. You don't often need it on a range rifle although it would not really be a good idea not to have one.
I have never had a rifle explode on me even though I have used it more times than I can count and fired maybe 10,000 rounds out of various type ARs.
The recharging the weapon nonsense makes the critical error in assuming that:
A- The round will be successfully extracted
and
B- The next round will seat properly
We already covered A with double feeds (but also bolt overrides). What about B? I have seen guys cycle their weapon and pull the trigger to a ''click'' three or four times in a row without even thinking about the forward assist. Those could be critical seconds wasted.
I have never had a rifle explode on me even though I have used it more times than I can count and fired maybe 10,000 rounds out of various type ARs.
The recharging the weapon nonsense makes the critical error in assuming that:
A- The round will be successfully extracted
and
B- The next round will seat properly
We already covered A with double feeds (but also bolt overrides). What about B? I have seen guys cycle their weapon and pull the trigger to a ''click'' three or four times in a row without even thinking about the forward assist. Those could be critical seconds wasted.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Who taught your class?
You could argue I think that the US Army is the largest user of this design, and the SPORTS immediate action drill includes "TAP" as part of the series.
SLAP the magazine up
PULL the charging handle
OBSERVE for ejection of live round or empty brass
RELEASE charging handle
TAP the forward assist
SQUUZE the trigger.
If you took an M16 class and that was not taught, I'd really love to hear the reasons why.
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Titan6
member
Buzz- Everyone on my team is issued a pistol but not everyone is issued a pistol. Everyone I know gets in a fight with a carbine. Seconds are a lot longer than you might think. Try cycling, aiming, and pulling trigger three or four times while someone else shoots an AK next to you. I bet they can empty a magazine in the same amount of time.
I like a forward assist and use it to seat the bolt on an empty chamber.
I was taught to not allow a bolt to slam shut on an empty chamber of any weapon so I ease the bolt/carrier assembly down under control and full seat with the forward assist.
I do the same thing with M1 and M14 rifles by whacking the back of the op rod handle to fully seat the bolt after easing it down too.
I was taught to not allow a bolt to slam shut on an empty chamber of any weapon so I ease the bolt/carrier assembly down under control and full seat with the forward assist.
I do the same thing with M1 and M14 rifles by whacking the back of the op rod handle to fully seat the bolt after easing it down too.
Beat to death already, I know, but I shoot a few AR-15s and do NOT use the FA, ever. . . .
IMHO, I'd not miss it if it was gone, nor would I use it if it was there. First thing I do is just eject the problem and get on with shooting. I've got a few AR-15s that have gone 3k rounds of Wolf between cleanings and they chamber fine unless I get a bad round, and if I do, I **really** want it out of there. A rifle used for social work would not start out excessively fouled, as with blanks, either.
I was in the Army in the '70's (and shot a few blanks too) and they did teach the use of the FA in failure drills, but, that was LONG ago.
For chamber checking, a method often taught in this current century to determine a round fed up is to do a "crossover check", which can be done in full darkness. The top round in the mag will be on one side or the other *before* loading, and then, it will be on the other side *after* loading the chamber, it will have "crossed over". You run your finger over the top of the new mag, noting the position of the top round, insert it, let the bolt go, pull the mag and feel again, if the round crossed over, it fed.
I guess one can take one's chances, either open the bolt and chance it not going back into battery, or perform a crossover check and chance the mag didn't seat fully when you put it back.
Myself, I'll let the bolt go home full speed, do a crossover check and KNOW my first round is chambered under a normal cycle and ready to rock, and I also know the mag will seat easily with one round gone home and feeling the mag catch flush on the left side will determine the mag is latched in and therefore fully seated. All this can be done in full darkness and about as quietly as opening the bolt, and all this is done after letting the bolt slam into battery anyway.
IMHO, I'd not miss it if it was gone, nor would I use it if it was there. First thing I do is just eject the problem and get on with shooting. I've got a few AR-15s that have gone 3k rounds of Wolf between cleanings and they chamber fine unless I get a bad round, and if I do, I **really** want it out of there. A rifle used for social work would not start out excessively fouled, as with blanks, either.
I was in the Army in the '70's (and shot a few blanks too) and they did teach the use of the FA in failure drills, but, that was LONG ago.
For chamber checking, a method often taught in this current century to determine a round fed up is to do a "crossover check", which can be done in full darkness. The top round in the mag will be on one side or the other *before* loading, and then, it will be on the other side *after* loading the chamber, it will have "crossed over". You run your finger over the top of the new mag, noting the position of the top round, insert it, let the bolt go, pull the mag and feel again, if the round crossed over, it fed.
I guess one can take one's chances, either open the bolt and chance it not going back into battery, or perform a crossover check and chance the mag didn't seat fully when you put it back.
Myself, I'll let the bolt go home full speed, do a crossover check and KNOW my first round is chambered under a normal cycle and ready to rock, and I also know the mag will seat easily with one round gone home and feeling the mag catch flush on the left side will determine the mag is latched in and therefore fully seated. All this can be done in full darkness and about as quietly as opening the bolt, and all this is done after letting the bolt slam into battery anyway.
Don't Tread On Me
Member
Various schools of thought on that one.
I tend to stick to the "better to have an not need, than to need and not have" mentality.
I've never needed it. Then there are those that believe it is a liability. That is, if a round doesn't chamber, by slapping the foward assist you are only creating a worse failure by jamming the case in there.
I suppose it depends on the type of stoppage. If the case isn't chambering because it is too big or out of spec, like say a case that wasn't resized properly...the last thing you want to do is smash it in as you'll only get it out with a wooden dowel and a hammer. If it didn't chamber because maybe there's grime on the cartridge and chamber and it was the top round on a full magazine and it only needs a tiny bit to chamber. You can probably give it a tap to close the bolt.
I suppose that's the key difference. Not chambering or feeding, and just needing a touch to close the bolt.
If you look at other platforms that use a charging handle directly fixed to the carrier, like say the AK-47...if the round doesn't fully chamber, would you smack the charging handle forward? I doubt it. You'd pull back on it and hopefull it would eject if the extractor had a grip on it. If not, now you are going to be tilting the rifle while pulling the handle and/or removing the magazine to clear that round and possibly a second round.
You can tell on an AR. It's different. On an unloaded rifle, NOT chambering a round:
When the bolt and carrier are spotless clean and oiled till they're wet. And you open and slowly close the bolt via charging handle, you will notice that it will go into battery MUCH easier, faster and smoother. When the rifle is dry of lube and full of fouling and grit from firing many rounds, the bolt doesn't lock up and go into battery as easily, quickly or smoothly as you guide it closed via charging handle. If it is dry enough and fouled enough, you can even get it to stop right before it locks up. However, if it is clean and lubed or fouled but lubed, no matter how slow you go you can't get it to stop before locking into battery.
The AR doesn't have the mass that rifles like the AK do in their carrier. The top round on a full 30 round magazine can be pretty stiff and hitting the bolt release on that you WILL notice a slower chambering than hitting it on a mag with only 10rds. It is very noticible.
I tend to stick to the "better to have an not need, than to need and not have" mentality.
I've never needed it. Then there are those that believe it is a liability. That is, if a round doesn't chamber, by slapping the foward assist you are only creating a worse failure by jamming the case in there.
I suppose it depends on the type of stoppage. If the case isn't chambering because it is too big or out of spec, like say a case that wasn't resized properly...the last thing you want to do is smash it in as you'll only get it out with a wooden dowel and a hammer. If it didn't chamber because maybe there's grime on the cartridge and chamber and it was the top round on a full magazine and it only needs a tiny bit to chamber. You can probably give it a tap to close the bolt.
I suppose that's the key difference. Not chambering or feeding, and just needing a touch to close the bolt.
If you look at other platforms that use a charging handle directly fixed to the carrier, like say the AK-47...if the round doesn't fully chamber, would you smack the charging handle forward? I doubt it. You'd pull back on it and hopefull it would eject if the extractor had a grip on it. If not, now you are going to be tilting the rifle while pulling the handle and/or removing the magazine to clear that round and possibly a second round.
You can tell on an AR. It's different. On an unloaded rifle, NOT chambering a round:
When the bolt and carrier are spotless clean and oiled till they're wet. And you open and slowly close the bolt via charging handle, you will notice that it will go into battery MUCH easier, faster and smoother. When the rifle is dry of lube and full of fouling and grit from firing many rounds, the bolt doesn't lock up and go into battery as easily, quickly or smoothly as you guide it closed via charging handle. If it is dry enough and fouled enough, you can even get it to stop right before it locks up. However, if it is clean and lubed or fouled but lubed, no matter how slow you go you can't get it to stop before locking into battery.
The AR doesn't have the mass that rifles like the AK do in their carrier. The top round on a full 30 round magazine can be pretty stiff and hitting the bolt release on that you WILL notice a slower chambering than hitting it on a mag with only 10rds. It is very noticible.
The pink AR is truely trick.
I hope there isn't a pink tactical vest that accompanies it!
I am mainly a target shooter and hunter so I do tend to treat my rifles like Swiss watches.
I don't dream of the day that Armageddon arrives.
Most of my rifles have 5.56 Match chambers and fitted barrel extensions and bolts so they don't drop into place when you ease the charging handle down no matter how wet I get it.
I also use grease over oil most of the time unless I am shooting a Match that calls for fast, furious, and lots of shooting.
Hosing the gun with CLP works best for those games.
I hope there isn't a pink tactical vest that accompanies it!
I am mainly a target shooter and hunter so I do tend to treat my rifles like Swiss watches.
I don't dream of the day that Armageddon arrives.
Most of my rifles have 5.56 Match chambers and fitted barrel extensions and bolts so they don't drop into place when you ease the charging handle down no matter how wet I get it.
I also use grease over oil most of the time unless I am shooting a Match that calls for fast, furious, and lots of shooting.
Hosing the gun with CLP works best for those games.
There are lots of ingenious ways to try to make something foolproof, but the way I think makes most sense is to lock the bolt back, insert magazine, and release the bolt, allowing the recoil spring to seat the cartridge.
This easing the bolt back and forth and farting around with the forward assist is uncalled for. If I want the gun unloaded, I will have it unloaded. Not a magazine in the gun and I'm waiting to see a target before I rack it. Then I need to do it quietly? What happens when the gun goes "bang?" That's not very quiet.
I have used my FA at the range. The gun got dirty and I used cheap Wolf lacquered-case ammo. Once I cleaned it, the sticking stopped.
I've never needed the FA when the gun was reasonably clean and the cases were brass.
If I never plan to use my AR in a SHTF situation, I won't need a forward assist.
Since SHTF is my main reason for owning mine, I'll stick with it.
I've never needed the FA when the gun was reasonably clean and the cases were brass.
If I never plan to use my AR in a SHTF situation, I won't need a forward assist.
Since SHTF is my main reason for owning mine, I'll stick with it.
Gene_WI
Member
Thank you for the thoughtful discussion.
I will go with a C7 upper (A1 carry handle, and A2 assist and brass deflector).
However I have another question. Are there any FA related malfunctions that people have had. Can the parts fail, and jam the bolt etc...
I will go with a C7 upper (A1 carry handle, and A2 assist and brass deflector).
However I have another question. Are there any FA related malfunctions that people have had. Can the parts fail, and jam the bolt etc...
TexasRifleman,
The class was at Front Sight. Their sequence for a failure to fire was to push up then pull down on the magazine, then rack while flipping the gun to its right side so the ejection port is facing down to help loose bullets/brass fall out. If that results in a double feed, then it was lock the bolt back, eject the magazine, finger check up through the magazine well for chambered rounds, if there is one in there, flip the gun on its side and rack three times, pushing the charging handle firmly each time to maximize the extractor's chances of grabbing the case, insert a new magazine and rack again to chamber a round.
I don't know why they don't subscribe to the US Army's drill. In the class we are using their M-16s and I think their experience is that newbies tend to get into trouble when they start messing with the forward assist, and I'm sure they don't want to risk any more damage to their guns than necessary as they spend a lot more on them than the Army does.
I came across this article after I took the class and was surprised that the US Military was trained to clear malfunctions differently than I was at the Front Sight class, but it gave me the impression that Front Sight's method may in fact be more effective. In any case it couldn't be much worse than the two incidents here:
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219forafmcnt/
blackhawk2000
member
I smack the charging handle on my AK all the time, after I chamber check and it doesn't fully go into battery. I would rather look into the chamber to verify the round is in, than check the mag to see if the round fed. Maybe I'm a little OCD, but I would be constantly thinking I forgot what side the round was on, or somehow the round was floating around in the gun somewhere besides the chamber.
blackhawk2000
member
JKimball, this is how I was taught too. And as always transition to your pistol, if they are within 25 yds.
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