Is the blood by my window from a person or animal?

[ccw007]

I tried posting this on the 1911 forum but they closed it saying it was not on topic. I still disagree with that because it is directly related to my personal safety and defense, but it is their forum.

I believe this happened Thursday when I was not home. I was outside Saturday getting ready to move some of the items to my building that are in the picture when I discovered several drops of blood. The trail went over to my window. Now there is a door right in front of the small pool of blood that had the window broken out years ago by my ex wife. I put in a Plexiglas window so it could not happen again. I also left some glass in the windows edge behind the plastic molding. There is a single piece of glass by the several drops of blood. Also this area of my house is very dark starting at 6:00 PM, which that will change today. The several drops of blood are in a place that the view is blocked from the road unlike the window. Also I have a 140 lb Great Dane that was in the house when I believed this happened. My theory is he started barking while his hand was by the glass and that is when he cut himself, or maybe he did it when we pulled up?

I reported this to the police and he also said that that pattern looks interesting, but since there was no blood on the house he started to think an animal may got hit by a car and did not start bleeding until it got here. I am about 200’ off of the road. However, I have a wood sided house and blood would not show up very well on it either. He also said it could have been a person. I knew they would not be able to do anything, but I wanted this documented.

Please look at this and tell me if you think this was an animal or person? I would love to get some LEO's input that look at this stuff everyday. Personally I am going to be on high alert. I am more worried about my wife than anything and adding light should help he see this area when she pulls in at night. Any other ideas are welcome too.

 

[JamisJockey]

I doubt you'll ever know.
My bet...animal.

 

[griz]

That's strange. One thing that's hard to tell from the pics, does it seem to start right at the window (several drops) and then head away? The scuffed drops are interesting too, unless you did it accidently before seeing them.

 

[ccw007]

It could have been an animal but my gut feeling is it is not. Just because not many pet animals roam free here and I am not near any woods. The glass on the gound makes me think it is not an animal either.

"does it seem to start right at the window (several drops) and then head away?"

There is a single drop by the window but I think the attempt was made that the door. He cuts himself then walks to the window and then walks back to the door out of view. The storage room blocks the view from the road. I think that the blood got smeared when he walked back. The blood was dry when I found it. So I am sure it was not from me.

 

[carebear]

A motion light sounds like a good idea if her car will turn it on when she pulls in. Otherwise just a light sensored one to go on when it's dark. I believe they have models out which will put out a lower level light at dusk then kick on the halogens if movement occurs, if you want to go all out.

Is the plexi really secure, so it can't be removed quietly/quickly? And is the door really secure (exterior type, good double cylinder deadbolt if within reach of glass)?

If so, you are probably ok. After all, a good cut (not to mention a big 'woofing" type dog) is a good negative association for your house to have for a prowler.

 

[Zundfolge]

Collect some samples and take them to your local highschool biology teacher ... they should be able to identify human blood under a microscope. You'll get your answer, and maybe the kids in his class will learn something.

 

[griz]

I guess the only thing the trail tells you is the bleeder wasn't easily detered. The fact that he was willing to hang around while dripping blood is disturbing. I like what Zundfolge said. Don't forget the gloves.

 

[Firethorn]

Collect some samples and take them to your local highschool biology teacher ... they should be able to identify human blood under a microscope. You'll get your answer, and maybe the kids in his class will learn something.

I don't think you can tell bloods apart with a microscope. What you need is a DNA type test. There may be some RH factor equivalent, but given that you're dealing with non-fresh blood of limited quantities, you'd be best off going with a professional lab. Might take some research to find one that'll take non-police samples.

 

[ccw007]

I had a motion detector there that quit working a few years ago. I replaced that today.

The Plexiglas is in there solid and the dead bolt needs a key to open inside and out. I also have an alarm system that we are going to start using 100% of the time. So I think we are pretty safe inside the house.

"I guess the only thing the trail tells you is the bleeder wasn't easily deterred. The fact that he was willing to hang around while dripping blood is disturbing."

Something my mother in law brought up about this too is that if this is a person he would have had to be watching the house more than likely. We are not home several hours on Thursday nights so if this was a person he may have been watching for a while now. This could be why there was no big rush to leave.

"Collect some samples and take them to your local high school biology teacher"

I had not thought about this that is a great idea. I was going to scrap some anyway just in case I need proof in the future. I am in school a night so I may check with the biology teacher next term to see if this is something they can do.

Thanks for the help and ideas

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Collect some samples and take them to your local highschool biology teacher ... they should be able to identify human blood under a microscope. You'll get your answer, and maybe the kids in his class will learn something.

Wow,that is outstanding! I did not know that high school biology teachers kept the materials on hand to identify human blood at the exlusion of other animals. And to think the police have to go to the trouble to send samples off to labs when all they needed was a trip to the local high school!

Okay, kidding aside, do not take blood samples to the local high school. If they are human blood, then you have a very definite biohazard of unknown origin and of unknown status. There are definite procedures for handling suspected human blood, and more than likely, your local high school does not have the resources to handle the blood safely. On top of that, there is no reason to risk exposure to the kids and and other faculty because of unsafe handling. Unsafe handling is inclusive of any handling that does not involve treating the blood as a biohazard or using biohazard protocols.

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cach...ions.pdf+human+blood+biohazard+handling&hl=en

 

[DT Guy]

Actually, DNS, animal blood and human blood are visibly different (to a trained eye) under a 'scope. The problem is that the blood has not been 'fixed', or preserved properly, and therefore the cells will have broken down-it will be impossible to tell from these dried samples if it were human, but fresh samples would be no problem.

I'll second the concerns about the biohazard, although the risk is probably small.

(My source for all this is my beloved bride, holder of the coveted "Specialist in Hematology" rating from the American Society of Clinical Pathologists. I married up )

Larry

 

[target4fun]

Looks pretty human to me soemthing about it just doesnt look like an animal that to me seems like a pretty good bet that its human with that aside it looks like you have taken the proper precatutions just make sure your guns are locked up when ur not at home also dont want them getting them even if they get past everything else thats the biggest consern is keeping the arms away from criminals, aside from that i can also think that the criminal could have not known he was cut ive cut my self with glass many times and never knew it until i realized teh wetness in my hand, this may have been the case and because of his adrenalne he could have never realized he was cut and maybe when he did he took off? That's my guess but even if it is a animal which i doubt it very much, i would reconsider security as you already have good job!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

DT Guy, human blood may be recognizable under a microscope to the trained eye, but I would highly doubt most high school teachers are hematologists and have the proper training to make the ID. I haven't found any articles that describe how to distinguish human from other animal blood via magnified visual examination. While it may be possible, most folks in forensics use other methods. What I do find are a series of tests involving different sorts of reactions such as a precipitin test.

Many folks may be able to identify the blood as human because it visually looks like human blood, but not at the exclusion of other blood types. It is not a simple matter of human versus animal as humans are animals.

As noted, the blood was not fixed. This is a regular problem when blood is found some time after the blood event occurred. A high school teacher isn't going to have the experience or facilities to identify the unfixed blood residue.

The notion of the biohazard risk as probably being small is not the proper way to address the issue. Even if small, there is no reason such a material should be introduced into an unsecured and improperly equipped facility, a high school, thereby putting faculty and students at risk.

 

[DT Guy]

DNS,

Wasn't suggesting he take it to a HS-just pointing out that originating species are discernable under a scope-my wife says that she was trained to tell dogs from, of all things, camels...

And you'll note that, although I described the risk as small, I still agreed the hazard existed. One can follow biohazard rules and asceptic technique but still have an informal opinion as to risk...


Larry

 

[Atticus]

"..but since there was no blood on the house he started to think an animal may got hit by a car and did not start bleeding until it got here."

Ah yes...the old delayed bleeding trick. Don't think so. What's your ex-wife doing these days? If it was an animal, I'd think there would be paw prints, since the blood would likely be from a cut foot. I'b bet someone cut their hand, stood for a moment (saying ouch) and then walked away. By that time the blood could not be contained on the hand and was dripping onto the concrete.

 

[ccw007]

What's your ex-wife doing these days?

To be honest I am not real sure. However, when I say my ex wife is crazy I mean it in the literal sense. We are to total different people. I actually have wondered if she could have been behind this. We divorced over 5 years ago. We were only married a year and I got out of that mess. She changed dramatically over night and got one he## of a mean temper. She still calls my parents and has even showed up over there uninvited of course. Back in August she called my parents and neighbor after getting out of drug rehab for I think the 2nd or 3rd time. When in rehab she was diagnosed as a sycophantic. She got a resisting arrest conviction a couple of years ago too. She also has had a couple of kids(two different dads). Her first kid the first dad has and there is a court order for her to stay away for them if I am not mistaking. She just had the 2nd one a couple of months ago. I found out all of this from her talking to the people at the store, my mom, and my neighbor. All of this stuff happened after we split. So yes it is possible she could have been in behind it because she did not know I left the glass in the door behind the molding. I must say hind sight is 20/20 At least the 2nd time I did it right and got a good one

 

[Double Naught Spy]

No DT, you did not say the blood should be taken to the local high school. Somebody else further up did. To that I responded that it was amazing if the local HS biology teacher could ID the blood since the police have to send it off to labs and what not.

I think it is great that your wife can tell dog from camel blood. I never suggested she or anyone else with the proper training and materials could not. My comments were specifically long the lines that the high school biology teacher probably could not.

I spoke with the folks at the USFWS Forensics Lab http://www.lab.fws.gov/ . The have a serology section that has the job of identifying animals as specifically as possible given blood samples provided. While they have the potential to ID many types of blood via visual identification under magnification, they most often prefer to use other tests that leave less room for interpretation, such as DNA or precipitin reactions.

 

[mfree]

Uh, I distinctly remember part of our college biology course was identifying blood cells according to a picture chart underneath IIRC a 400x scope.

They *do* look different.... but the fixing problem is valid too. You'll have a slide full of shriveled fragments...

 

[Nickotym]

I am guessing not animal. If an animal you would expect to see footprints or a tail dragged through the blood at more than one point. I also don't think the person knew they were cut. I don't think they ran off quickly either since the blood would have likely been teardrop shaped rather than circular. Keep an eye out and good luck.

 

[Ol' Badger]

I think Griz is right!

Some numb skull tried to jimmy the window and his $5 Walt-Mart special slipped and cut him.

 

[Azrael256]

it was amazing if the local HS biology teacher could ID the blood since the police have to send it off to labs and what not.

Depends on the HS. My HS bio teacher taught us to do a blast karyotype.

 

[Island Beretta]

..suggest you ask the local PD for help in checking on this.

 

[Zundfolge]

it was amazing if the local HS biology teacher could ID the blood since the police have to send it off to labs and what not.

Maybe the public schools in Wichita Kansas (where I went to school) are better then most (which I seriously doubt) but in High School Biology class, we had to sort unmarked slides of blood by species ... including Homo sapiens sapiens.

Hell a microscope set I got for Christmas in Junior High came with a couple boxes of slides of various animal bloods ... you can clearly tell the difference between cat, dog and chicken blood with a cheap microscope.

Although good points where brought up about proper preparation of the slides and I hadn't even thought of the biohazard issue.

 

[Curare]

Any visually definable cell structure in those samples has been obliterated.

Unless someone here volunteers their time to help you out locally, you'd pay a pretty penny to have someone come out, collect a sample and analyze it. That's about as likely as the mystery person coming back to meet your dog again.

 

[PaulBk]

Really isn't all that hard to tell...

whether human or animal. Or even what type of animal, if you know what you are looking for. Police send their samples to professional labs in order to identify and preserve potential *legal* evidence. Those samples must be treated differently as all i's must be dotted and t's crossed.

My 12 year old daughter did last year's science fair project on the difference between cow and chicken DNA using only a fairly inexpensive (less than $1,000) microscope, which we borrowed from the local high school. We had specific, step by step instructions on preparation and identification, and the blood samples were significantly larger than the trace amounts you have, but it *can* be done by amatuers or even students.

That said, I fully agree that handling unknown blood samples might be potentially dangerous and the ones that you have are already beyond amatuer examination.

-PB