Is there a thread going on the ATF vs the Honey Badger Pistol Brace by Q LLC?

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Rule3

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I searched the forum and can not find one if there is. Maybe I am going blind? Only thing I found was under NRA actions thread,

If there is please let me know and delete this thread.

Seems ATF has now suspended it's cease and desist order. There seems to be no given reason why the Honey Badger was singled out? Perhaps they did not get the design "approved" first by ATF or could be much deeper than that!

Both letters can be found here.

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/10/at...nsion-of-honey-badger-decision/#axzz6axRHvhuU
 
Not in Legal. There was one locked in General a few days back because yada, yada, yada ATF ... repeat

Thanks! Yes the thread went down the tubes with political and "opinions". I think the best explanation is in the video with the owner of SB Tactical who invented the braces and supplies them to many other manufacturers (Sig and the Honey Badger , Q LLC


https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/atf-moving-the-goalposts.876012/page-2

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/10/06/honey-badger-pistol-2/

Essentially there is NO industry standard for the braces and the ATF picks and choices. The owner explains it better than I can in the interview, No doubt there is politics involved as well

 
The issue (to me) is that there is no explanation of WHY they determined it was a SBR??
There are millions of braces out there, heck even a giant like SIG gets their braces from SB tactical. As mentioned in the interview there seems to be no industry "standard" to follow.
I still think it is an issue with Q LLC not submitting the design for "approval" or they have a pad on the end of the brace?

The ATF has now handed it off to the Dept of Justice
 
The issue (to me) is that there is no explanation of WHY they determined it was a SBR??
There are millions of braces out there, heck even a giant like SIG gets their braces from SB tactical. As mentioned in the interview there seems to be no industry "standard" to follow.
I still think it is an issue with Q LLC not submitting the design for "approval" or they have a pad on the end of the brace?

The ATF has now handed it off to the Dept of Justice
As I understand it, the ATF uses a 'holistic' approach to determining if a firearm with an arm brace is an SBR or a pistol.

One of those soft, unwritten criteria in determining the difference between the two is by measuring the length of pull. If it exceeds an unpublished figure (thought to be 13.25") then the firearm is considered to be an SBR, simply because the arm brace is thus too long to use as a brace on your forearm.

The Honey Badger has its arm brace attached to extendable arms that supposedly was able to exceed this mythical length of pull maximum, thus was deemed an SBR. However, others feel that the ATF mis-measured the length of pull by measuring on a diagonal instead of parallel to the barrel, and the actual length of pull of the Honey Badger at full extension was under 13.25".

The Justice Department is reviewing the ATF's actions, and directed the temporary suspension of the Cease and Desist letter to Q.

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length-of-pull-scaled.jpg
 
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This could likely be solved with a simple regulation that if something has a forward grip of any type, including a heat shroud around the barrel and a detachable magazine, the gun is not a pistol. Make exceptions for single shot items so as not to ruin the T/C pistols, but it seems like a lot more solid footing for a ruling. And grandfather all of the current crop of braced pistols in by allowing free registration of SBRs for a limted period of 2 years or so.
Doing this might also remove some of the ammunition restrictions on things like 5.45x39, making 7N6 importable again.
 
This could likely be solved with a simple regulation that if something has a forward grip of any type, including a heat shroud around the barrel and a detachable magazine, the gun is not a pistol. Make exceptions for single shot items so as not to ruin the T/C pistols, but it seems like a lot more solid footing for a ruling. And grandfather all of the current crop of braced pistols in by allowing free registration of SBRs for a limted period of 2 years or so.
Doing this might also remove some of the ammunition restrictions on things like 5.45x39, making 7N6 importable again.
or in real life, they get the ban, backlog the amnesty until %95 of people can't register, cash in on their enormous earmark that got the bill passed, do not legalize anything and start pushing for further regulation before the dust settles on the 'compromise'... you can't hand a wild pig a
food and expect it to stop when you run out. It will eat you. The compromise never stops, and rights always erode, never return. It took a series of high profile lies and political luck to get the AWB rid of. Remember Bush repeatedly said he would review.
 
This could likely be solved with a simple regulation that if something has a forward grip of any type, including a heat shroud around the barrel and a detachable magazine, the gun is not a pistol. Make exceptions for single shot items so as not to ruin the T/C pistols, but it seems like a lot more solid footing for a ruling. And grandfather all of the current crop of braced pistols in by allowing free registration of SBRs for a limted period of 2 years or so.
Doing this might also remove some of the ammunition restrictions on things like 5.45x39, making 7N6 importable again.

It could also easily be solved by repealing the NFA. Clearly, if rifle caliber pistols are A-OK, then there is no logical reason to so heavily regulate short barreled rifles.
 
It could also easily be solved by repealing the NFA. Clearly, if rifle caliber pistols are A-OK, then there is no logical reason to so heavily regulate short barreled rifles.
The rifle caliber pistols are skirting the letter of the law. I seriously doubt you'll get a repeal of the NFA, but some careful legislation can remove this problem with pistol braces vs. SBRs and avoid criminalizing people who haven't done anything wrong.
 
The rifle caliber pistols are skirting the letter of the law. I seriously doubt you'll get a repeal of the NFA, but some careful legislation can remove this problem with pistol braces vs. SBRs and avoid criminalizing people who haven't done anything wrong.
but remember, everytime your fire a pistol with one hand, or touch a shotgun over 410,privately sell a firearm, or even tune your own car made after 1965 without being a licensed mechanic your also "skirting the law". Just skirting it in a way thats been done so long people are used to it,.
 
but remember, everytime your fire a pistol with one hand, or touch a shotgun over 410,privately sell a firearm, or even tune your own car made after 1965 without being a licensed mechanic your also "skirting the law". Just skirting it in a way thats been done so long people are used to it,.
Somehow I don't think all of those are actually true.

The point I was getting at is that with an actual law determining what a pistol is vs. what we have now would go a long way to avoiding enforcement actions like this one where the law is not clear.
We also end up hurting ourselves worse because of things like ammo bans. 5.45x39 has effectively died out because there is very little cheap surplus coming in.
 
Somehow I don't think all of those are actually true.

The point I was getting at is that with an actual law determining what a pistol is vs. what we have now would go a long way to avoiding enforcement actions like this one where the law is not clear.
We also end up hurting ourselves worse because of things like ammo bans. 5.45x39 has effectively died out because there is very little cheap surplus coming in.
ok, but just as shouldering a brace is making it a SBR
18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(29) and 27 CFR § 478.11. The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having: a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); two handing a pistol makes it an AOW (if the idea is use, not intent at manufacturer)

Shotguns are destructive devices- just with a "sporting exception" that can be revoked.
The JD and ATF don't seem to have a definition of "engaged in the business of" and as we have seen recently, you only have to sell one firearm to the wrong person to be an illegal dealer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emissions_Standards_Act Looks like i got the date wrong, the law was 65, but took effect in 68.
My point is that if you go after people for intent of the law rather than word of the law, every adult in the US is committing a felony on a frequent basis. To your point, we already have the law. The law is clear. SBR's are SBR's, Pistols are pistols. If you bridge that gap we have a technology department at the ATF. Is simply unreasonable to expect federal legislative action for every new idea in a fast moving industry. The people in a position to make a ruling made a ruling based on what they had, knowing the legislator would not consider the issue. They have been given the responsibility for that very reason.
The actual issue is only confusing because to many people pushed the ATF like children, and made it a political flashpoint.
The Honey badger probably got banned because its a $2400 pistol that can be replicated for 1/2 the price, and this is a way to see if the Fudds will throw the very small market under the bus like they did the bumpstock crowd. If so, they'll start making more rulings, and eventually limit stock designs severely, maybe request legislative review. If not, things will probably stay the same.
As for the 5.45, import law is much simpler. If there was demand, lawyers would have fought it, or a US maker would take over. The 5.45 really died out because the 5.56 is everywhere, continuously produced and the most popular centerfire round in the US. Demand for the 5.45 was never that great to begin with. I don't think banning everything from the XP-100 to Heizer defense 223 is a great idea. Making model exceptions is a stupid idea, and always has been.
Millions of pistols have been made in 22lr. Thousands in 44-40, both rifle rounds. What happens when we decide a rifle round is anything for a rifle?
Rifle cal pistols have been around for decades. Never an issue. They didn't go after the .223, or .308, despite lots of pistols. They went after the 5.45 because the objectors were minimally influential, and we were made at Russia at the time.
 
ok, but just as shouldering a brace is making it a SBR
18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(29) and 27 CFR § 478.11. The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having: a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); two handing a pistol makes it an AOW (if the idea is use, not intent at manufacturer)

Shotguns are destructive devices- just with a "sporting exception" that can be revoked.
The JD and ATF don't seem to have a definition of "engaged in the business of" and as we have seen recently, you only have to sell one firearm to the wrong person to be an illegal dealer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emissions_Standards_Act Looks like i got the date wrong, the law was 65, but took effect in 68.
My point is that if you go after people for intent of the law rather than word of the law, every adult in the US is committing a felony on a frequent basis. To your point, we already have the law. The law is clear. SBR's are SBR's, Pistols are pistols. If you bridge that gap we have a technology department at the ATF. Is simply unreasonable to expect federal legislative action for every new idea in a fast moving industry. The people in a position to make a ruling made a ruling based on what they had, knowing the legislator would not consider the issue. They have been given the responsibility for that very reason.
The actual issue is only confusing because to many people pushed the ATF like children, and made it a political flashpoint.
The Honey badger probably got banned because its a $2400 pistol that can be replicated for 1/2 the price, and this is a way to see if the Fudds will throw the very small market under the bus like they did the bumpstock crowd. If so, they'll start making more rulings, and eventually limit stock designs severely, maybe request legislative review. If not, things will probably stay the same.
As for the 5.45, import law is much simpler. If there was demand, lawyers would have fought it, or a US maker would take over. The 5.45 really died out because the 5.56 is everywhere, continuously produced and the most popular centerfire round in the US. Demand for the 5.45 was never that great to begin with. I don't think banning everything from the XP-100 to Heizer defense 223 is a great idea. Making model exceptions is a stupid idea, and always has been.
Millions of pistols have been made in 22lr. Thousands in 44-40, both rifle rounds. What happens when we decide a rifle round is anything for a rifle?
Rifle cal pistols have been around for decades. Never an issue. They didn't go after the .223, or .308, despite lots of pistols. They went after the 5.45 because the objectors were minimally influential, and we were made at Russia at the time.
I don't hold any of my pistols with two hands. I hold them all with one hand and use the other hand to steady my firing hand. And shouldering a brace doesn't make it an SBR, nor is that what brought the cease and desist letter.

But the regulation I suggested doesn't hinge on intent, it differentiates based on features. Much the way the original AWB focused on features and was actually pretty effective at differentiating. You knew exactly what you could and could not put on a gun made after 1994. This would replicate that same language in making a disctinction between AR/AK/etc without stocks that people call pistols and actual pistols like your average semi-auto or revolver.

The destructive device thing is not up to the ATF, it's up to the attorney general and this is codified in law rather than being an ATF regulation.

5.45 got the short end of it because of people who insisted on pushing the pistol wording for what should have been SBRs. The ATF abided by the law in letting these 'pistols' come in and be sold but then also followed the rules by not allowing the import of armor piercing ammo like 7N6. If a foreign manufacturer made non-steel cored ammo, it would be allowed in and indeed, it is allowed in. You can go buy Wolf and Tula, both from Russia without a single problem. But the cheap surplus can't come in anymore because only a few countries make it and only one country really uses it in any great amount.
Basically, the "it's not a SBR, it's a pistol wink wink" guys ruined it for the rest of us.
 
Perhaps a new legal category of firearm would make this easier. That would clear things up if they clearly defined it, and then regulations on that particular type of firearm could be made to address the issues. Maybe make AR pistols And the like some classification similar to an AOW and apply the current laws (and interpretations) for handgrips, braces, etc.

No I don’t support this, it just seems a logical step to clear up the confusion.
 
Perhaps a new legal category of firearm would make this easier. That would clear things up if they clearly defined it, and then regulations on that particular type of firearm could be made to address the issues. Maybe make AR pistols And the like some classification similar to an AOW and apply the current laws (and interpretations) for handgrips, braces, etc.

[For purposes of expediency, I will refer below to firearms that are based off of the AR/AK platform, or based on a submachine gun platform such as the CZ Scorpion, that are currently classified as pistols as "rifle-caliber pistols". My designation would also include such firearms that are chambered in traditional pistol calibers such as 9mm, not just those chambered in rifle calibers.]

The ATF is currently in the process of redefining rifle-caliber 'pistols' as AOWs for purposes of importation by more strictly applying the legal definition of a pistol as being 'designed to be fired with one hand.' If, according to the ATF, the firearm is too front-heavy to shoot one handed, it is not a pistol. If it has no butt stock, it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and is not a rifle. Hence the definition AOW.

If successful, I'm sure the next step will be to apply the same pistol reinterpretation to domestically produced and currently-owned rifle-caliber pistols. What is unclear about the currently owned firearms is if they would then require a $5 AOW transfer tax stamp or a $200 AOW manufacturing stamp. Newly purchased rifle-caliber 'pistols' would presumably be subject to the $5 AOW transfer stamp, but also require the extended background check process that comes with obtaining a tax stamp.

A Biden administration has already made it clear that they wish to enact legislation to reclassify any semi-automatic firearm as an NFA item, as well as any magazine with a capacity of over 10 rounds also an NFA item, each requiring the $200 tax stamp. This would apply equally to rifles, pistols, and shotguns. https://joebiden.com/gunsafety/#

It doesn't take much imagination to envision a Biden ATF rescinding their rulings on arm braces, reclassifying them as butt stocks, much as they did with 'bump stocks.' That move alone would not require any legislative action.

If you could no longer have an arm brace on your 'pistol,' then I think the appeal of the rifle caliber pistol would greatly diminish. Reclassifying them as AOWs with new purchases requiring a $5 tax stamp and associated background check with fingerprints would further reduce the appeal.

Reclassifying all semi-autos under the NFA requiring a $200 tax stamp would effectively kill off any remaining appeal for a rifle caliber pistol, since for the same $200 tax stamp you could just get an SBR.

However, and this is something that I have not heard discussed elsewhere, is that if a Biden administration in conjunction with a friendly House and Senate could enact legislation to reclassify any semi-automatic firearm as an NFA item, there is no guarantee that the same legislation wouldn't readjust the $200 tax, originally set in 1934 dollars, into today's dollar (~$3,900), or higher, effectively killing off the civilian-owned semi-automatic firearm altogether without ever running afoul of Heller, McDonald, or any other SCOTUS ruling. (The government's ability to tax has been long established, and is why in 1934 the NFA taxed machine guns and silencers, instead of outright banning them.)
 
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When I first heard about the Honey Badger letter, I researched the pistol and searched for images of it online. It does appear to be a shoulder stock at first glance. Of more interest, is that in dozens of pictures of shooters with the firearm, only one picture actually showed someone using it as a forearm brace. Every other picture depicted the shooter shouldering the weapon. I believe the letter from the ATF allowing people to shoulder a brace was a practical wink and a nod to how pistol brace firearms were being used. However, knowing how federal agency employees think, somebody said this brace design went too far, and subsequently issued the letter.
 
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