Is "Totalitarian..." diatribe getting people killed?

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thepenismightier

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Here's an interesting article discussing our frightening tradition of April shooting sprees: http://www.slate.com/id/2216248/pagenum/2

Keep in mind, the article comes from Slate, an online periodical (now owned by the Washington Post) that presents a cautious (though by no means extreme) liberal bias.

Here's the excerpt that seems to most succinctly concern us (italics mine):
The extreme hysteria that surrounds discussions of gun control leads to absurd arguments about causation. Nobody claims that Glenn Beck is responsible for killing people. Nobody thinks guns are inherently evil. But how can there be an honest national debate over gun violence if we cannot even acknowledge the connections between people who admonish us to become "armed and dangerous" [referring to Michele Bachmann] and a citizen's decision to arm himself and kill [referring to Poplawski]? Our annual April shooting sprees have many complicated causes, and no single factor is fully to blame. But it's willful blindness to fail to see any connections between the rising number of guns in America, the decline in gun regulation, and the screaming nightly predictions about the rise of an apocalyptic totalitarian police state. Until we can recognize that these connections exist, there will be more killings in the coming weeks and years.
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Granted, this article is opinion, as is this post...and I'm willing to bet nobody here's going to agree with either. But I have to say I agree that the very public ranting from people like Beck and Bachmann are doing nothing to help the pro-gun cause, or public safety. It's only slightly hyperbolic to say this is like screaming "Fire" in a movie theater because you think you smell a whiff of smoke. Maybe you'll be proven right, but if you're wrong people just got stampeded for nothing.
 
But I have to say I agree that the very public ranting from people like Beck and Bachmann are doing nothing to help the pro-gun cause,
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Then don't listen to them. That's why radios and TVs have those funny knobs on em, you can change the channel or turn em off.

It's interesting that you seem to think that an Opinion peice from the left is okey dokey, but those on the right with an opinions should keep their mouth shut to not offend the leftists.

No thanks
 
But how can there be an honest national debate over gun violence if we cannot even acknowledge the connections between people who admonish us to become "armed and dangerous" [referring to Michele Bachmann] and a citizen's decision to arm himself and kill [referring to Poplawski]?
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I reject the assumption of a connection in its entirety. An elected official using a metaphor concerning the cap and trade policy and one crazy person out of 300 million people have no significant connection.
 
The shooter was on nazi forums. I doubt it came from any conservative media as much as those nazi forums. I believe he also had mental problems and was dishonorably discharged from the military, and couldn't own guns.

Most of these other shootings were some pathetic psycho wanting his own pathetic form of revenge or a felon fleeing from the cops. (Who also couldn't own guns)

For the others, I'd blame the news media rather than the conservative media, because they encourage copycat behavior.

Lax gun laws are not to blame, because most of these were either by people who couldn't own guns or were in victim disarmament zones.

Even if more gun laws could have stopped a few of these, the resulting increase in crime would more than make up for it.

According to dr. Gary Kleck, guns are used about 2.5 million times a year for defense. I do believe this is an exaggeration, however, if even 0.5% of that number occurs, then guns are used more often for self-defense than for murder. If they are used 1% of Kleck's number, that's more uses of guns for self-defense than there are total murders.

About 90% of all murders are by convicted felons who can't buy guns.

Finally, guns have stopped shootings in the past. In MS, a school shooting was happening, an one of the school employees had a firearm in his car because he couldn't take it in to the school.He stopped the school shooting. More lives could have been saved if he didn't have to keep it in his car.
 
Dravur...I'm not saying right wing commentators should keep their mouths shut, and I certainly don't care if they offend leftists.

I'm saying there's a difference between the rhetoric of the opinion piece I quoted ("can we possibly admit that there might be a connection?"), and that of many right-wing pundits ("the government IS coming to take your guns").

At the least, I think such pundits' claims are a tad Chicken Little-ish. At worst, they're frighteningly inflammatory...if they are indeed helping to inspire people to take up and/or use their arms. And I think it's possible they might be doing just that.

Now Poplawski was a nut, for sure. There was a lot of other stuff going on there. But even regular folks are saying similar stuff and acting on it in more subtle ways. I had an unnerving experience down at the Probate Court yesterday with just such a person. I'll post about it separately and link when I get it up.
 
"At worst, they're frighteningly inflammatory..."

...at best they could be correct. There are certainly a goodly number of public figures and elected officials who have said they would like to disarm the civilian population of the U.S.

There were nuts in the world long before the invention of the telegraph, telephone or mass media. We simply cannot walk on eggshells all of the time for fear of upsetting someone.

John
 
From the SLATE article. "Nobody thinks guns are inherently evil."
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Absolute nonsense!

When I lived in Los Angeles, I knew, and debated quite a few people, especially in "show business" who truly thought that firearms were "evil."

These were very emotional people who had no intention whatsoever of allowing any facts to cloud the issue. They were deathly afraid of firearms and attached an "evil quality" to those inanimate pieces of steel and wood.

L.W.
 
thepenismightier quotes:

But how can there be an honest national debate over gun violence if we cannot even acknowledge the connections between people who admonish us to become "armed and dangerous" [referring to Michele Bachmann] and a citizen's decision to arm himself and kill [referring to Poplawski]?
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I think we cannot acknowledge the connection because there is NO connection!
 
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But it's willful blindness to fail to see any connections between the rising number of guns in America, the decline in gun regulation, and the screaming nightly predictions about the rise of an apocalyptic totalitarian police state.
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The question I have is WHY are their nightly predictions about the rise of an apocalyptic totalitarian police state? I do actually think that the connection to THAT particular issue should be investigated. However I doubt very much the MSM will have the Cojone's to investigate that one.
 
thepenismightier: "At the least, I think such pundits' claims are a tad Chicken Little-ish. At worst, they're frighteningly inflammatory...if they are indeed helping to inspire people to take up and/or use their arms. And I think it's possible they might be doing just that."

If only. They are not taking up and using their arms (in implicitly lawful and/or peaceful manner). They are criminally misusing their arms against innocent persons. Your concerns might carry more weight had the criminals shot up an ATF office. Though in that case we would be having an entirely different debate. In that case some of us would shake our heads at the murderers, some would bemoan the pretext given the antis for a crackdown, and some would joyously announce that the revolution was on.
 
I blame the right wing media. Ever since Nov. 5th, 2008, I hear the same propaganda about the US turning into a socialist, communist state, in addition to some that are just foaming at the mouth that an African American, a liberal to boot, got elected president.
 
sernv99: "... in addition to some that are just foaming at the mouth that an African American, a liberal to boot, got elected president."

Who ever said Curious George was American?
 
I think the stress of tax season is to blame. Even the teenagers feel their parents stress, it's all Tim Geithner's fault.
 
I will acknowledge the connection when someone proves a statistically reliable connection between the increase in gun ownership and any increase in violent crime.

BTW, any recorded increase in gun ownership will not account for illegal gun ownership, which accounts for most of the gun violence in the country. Therefore increases and decreases in legal gun ownership are almost 100% mutually exclusive of increases and decreases in gun violence.

Perhaps some FACTS are in order...From the DOJ:

According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

>>a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
>> a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
>> family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
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In 1993 the firearm crime rate (Victims per 1,000 residents) was 5.9 In 2005 the rate had decreased to 2.0 (a low of 1.4 was recorded in 2004).
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It appears that the very premise of the suggestion that we just "acknowledge the connections" between increased gun ownership and increased gun violence" is false because gun violence appears to have DECREASED. OOPS!!
 
BTW - Your brilliant reasoning doesn't account for the German shooting spree that took place earlier this month...or are they reading American "right wing media" propoganda too?
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Even if there are shootings which aren't related to the propaganda doesn't discredit the idea of a connection between the propaganda and shootings. The occurrence of non-alcohol related auto accidents doesn't mean drunk driving accidents don't happen.

I don't think Beck and the others cause people to go off the deep end any more than gangsta rap causes inner city black youths to build lives of crime.
 
I've listened to most all the talking heads over the years.

Do I believe, support, or follow any of them like some religious zealot? NO.
No one is right 100% of the time.

I can tell you this by flipping channels all the time though.
The most bias (with an agenda) and full of BS media outlets are indeed
the networks that USED to have an monopoly on the media content
NBC, CBS and ABC.
The cable networks such as MSNBC and CCN are even worse.
These people simply make stuff up and it is THEM who sets the 'talking points'.
NOT people like Glen Beck or Fox news.

Glen Beck speaks the truth and if you don't believe it
simply do your own research.
You will find what he says is CORRECT.
(most of the time)
Glen beck and others like him are being attacked by
the true extremist of this FREE country, because they SEE that the American public is waking UP
to the TRUTH.

Extremist from what ever group want to tell the rest of us what to do,
how to think and NOW, they want to try to turn all the BS they have spewed around
on those who are telling it like it is.

Here's a novel idea for the extremists.
How about YOU GUYS all move to the left coast
(or buy yourself some island of paradise somewhere)
and become an independent nation.
You can then put up gun free zone signs at all your borders you want.
You can kill all your unwanted babies at will.
You can tax the hell out of your citizens and live in your utopian socialist nation for ever more.

JUST LEAVE THE REST OF US ALONE ALREADY.


We are WELL overdue for a revolution in this country
and it IS truly time to take out the criminals
who have infiltrated our government.

The things I see happening today and being perpetrated by our
elected officials is treason.
These people were all sworn to defend the constitution.
NOT re-write it.
I'm all for 'tea bagging' some of these politicians and take that as you may.

Oh and the premise: Is "Totalitarian..." diatribe getting people killed? is a ridiculous notion.
Although I have to admit, the 'people' are arming up for 'some' reason.

In closing... It's high TIME our politicians do what WE say NOT what they want to do.
 
Fox News has been a good blast of fresh air, always getting into stuff that otherwise wont have been noticed.

Half the stuff I hear from them I take with a grain of salt. Just a little common sense mind you but not too much.

Let's say for a moment that Fox News says that we should have a one page tax code. 15% for all, payable and due at the cash register and once a year once the annual payroll IRS forms arrive.

There will always be someone somewhere else in the media world that will take a totally oppositie view and declare our tax system as it stands is a fair one but only needs tweaks and adjustments.

I have been watching news in various forms all my life and learned that the only news that matter related to tornadoes, hurricanes, nor'easters and local or regional problems like Three Mile Island as once happened.

Everything else is just filler because the commericals that pay the bills need airing every 7 minutes and there will always be a willing audience to sit there and soak in this.. this... saturated solution that has been reused many times over the years.

Let's say that Glenn Beck or someone else says... there are now 4 million new gun owners this year with more buying every day.

Let us see where the crime rate goes from here for the rest of the year yes?

Regarding Mr Obama, his Citizenship has never been proven sufficiently clearly to our family over the normal media outlets so we tolerate him now until the next election. We have gone through many Presidents and a few iffy ones temporarly derailing this great ship of state wont hurt too much.

I hope.
 
The author seems willing... even anxious... to condemn those he sees as radically pro-gun. Yet he remains strangely silent about fiery and insulting rhetoric coming from the other side.

Hmmmm... Biased? Cooooould be!

Anyone who suggests there is need to even DISCUSS more gun control favors gun control and all of their attempts to portray themselves as unbiased, reasonable moderators of a necessary debate reveal them as the liars and scum they really are.
 
Leanwolf noted (post 7):

These were very emotional people who had no intention whatsoever of allowing any facts to cloud the issue. They were deathly afraid of firearms and attached an "evil quality" to those inanimate pieces of steel and wood.
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And they call us paranoid? I have seen this raw purely emotional phenomenon first hand, from real live individuals, and repeatedly, time and time again.

I think the concern about the direction America seems to be going, and not only with respect to firearms ownership, is a valid result of observation and assessment of continuously emerging facts. Facts.

I am impressed by the parallels drawn by bababooey32 (post 15). These are factual quotes (except I believe the original quote from Marx was closer to "religion is the opium of the masses," IIRC.)

So don't call me hysterical or irrationally paranoid. I've seen the "pяogяessive pяogяession" first hand over many, many decades --I still remember buying my first gun without a serial number, sans any paperwork at all, before GCA 68*.

And I bought my first two boxes of .22LR ammo in a hardware store in upstate New York when I was 8-9 years old, without the clerk batting an eyelash.

Oh, wait a minute. I lied about the paperwork on the gun. I got a receipt.

And things were safer then.

And better.

Terry, 230RN, Living Historian

__________
*
GCA 68 - Gun Control Act of 1968
 
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SaxonPig

I was thinking along the same lines but
wanted to try and be somewhat high road.

The truth of the matter is folks.
If it walks like a duck.. well you know the rest.
 
Over the past thirty years, I've somehow gone from being a "Moderate" to being a "Right-wing extremist" without changing my views on a single issue. Hmmm...
 
+1 irishsquid.

I'm a bit younger (in my 20's), but according to other people in recent years, I've somehow gone from Libertarian to "right wing nut/extremist" because of my unwavering stance on firearms and the constitution.
 
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