Is USCCA getting a fair shake on YouTube?

[Mike P Wagner]

Thinking about beginning to carry - mostly to synagogue.

I am thinking about concealed carry insurance, and I see a number of videos on YouTube complain going about USCCA insurance covering being dropped/denied on a criminal conviction - even when the “conviction” is a plea bargain down to a relatively minor.

My understanding is that there is a pretty fundamental principal in US law that Insurance companies exclude “intentional acts” (and thus criminal acts).

I am not a lawyer and have ony a hazy idea about this, but if that is true, then it seems like any insurance company would excLuke coverage for any actions that lead to a conviction or a guilty plea.

Does anyone here understand these legal issues?

 

[AUhiker]

You are correct in the fact that it’s unlawful for insurance to cover a crime. Which ever insurance you’re looking at I would take a deep dive and read the contract thoroughly. There’s a bunch of loopholes where they don’t have to cover you if you violate one of the rules. That’s just how insurance works. Me personally I would recommend one of the companies that is Not insurance. I would recommend ACLDN or ccw safe. Both are solid reputable companies that have a good track record. I’m not an expert on law, but I try to my best to read and understand it. I highly recommend before buying any ccw coverage to listen to Andrew Branca at law of self defense. He has videos on YouTube, podcast, and a website that breaks down all the law you need to know for self defense. He even has a free book I would take advantage of. He’s the foremost leader/expert on self defense law and he goes in depth about all the ccw insurance companies.

 

[Doc Samson]

Thinking about beginning to carry - mostly to synagogue.

I am thinking about concealed carry insurance...

Does anyone here understand these legal issues?

Nice! Last time I attended my local about 3-4 years ago, I was pleasantly surprised to see a member OC'ing at the entry way as he greeted everyone. I was unpleasantly surprised that the service veered into politics and moral equivalency and haven't been back since.

Good advice from AUhiker as the terms and conditions of so many companies are confusing as heck...

 

[rust collector]

Insurance contracts are limited by the language of the policy and by state laws governing policy coverage. The recommendation above to read the policy was good advice, but even if the conduct isn't specifically excluded from coverage, the effect of state law may be to prohibit coverage. An example of the factors at work:
https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates...tting-insurance-coverage-for-intentional-acts

While insurance is an important part of asset protection, it is only a part of the puzzle. The objective of any insurance company is not to pay claims. It is to collect premiums. Prepaid legal plans are also designed to make money for plan administrators. Questions regarding coverage are likely to be answered by sales people or others with a pecuniary interest. Those verbal assurances fall before the language of the document and laws which are subject to change.

Review by your experienced attorney can clarify these issues and also establish a working relationship that helps avert problems as well as deal with them. You can also inquire if they work with a prepaid legal plan that might help with costs in the event they are needed. It's a bit like choosing your own physician rather than relying on whatever doc the HMO has available.

 

[Craig_AR]

A few details to know as you browse the mess on YouTube:
1. Not every post-event support program is actually insurance. You have to look at the details of each to know whether they are.
2. Each program updates and changes to their coverage and services. Do not rely on any other source on what their comparative tables show; go to the program's own web site to read their current details.
3. If a comparison reference you see includes NRA Carry Guard, it is so far out of date as to be totally worthless. Carry Guard was shut down four years ago.
4. The current ugliness on YT started about a year ago when AOR began their attack-the-competitors advertising program by making claims about other programs, some of which might be considered a bit misleading. So far I have seen that they have attacked USCCA, CCWSafe, and ACLDN. They may have others on their radar, too.
5. Go to the YT channel for each of the programs AOR has attacked to see their responses. In particular, the response from ACLDN told me a bit more background about the methods AOR is using in this process.
6. On a personal level, I consider, as pointed out above, that ACLDN and CCWSafe as the best programs for my needs.
7. I wrote off Marc Victor (owner of AOR) as giving meaningful advice for me years before he founded AOR. When he was still working with John Correia on Johns' Briefs episodes of Active Self Protection YT videos, in one video he gave the standard criminal defense lawyer advice to say nothing at all, instead of recognizing the value of Massad Ayoob's advice to say five time-critical things and then lawyer up. In another, he recommended carrrying with an empty chamber. There are valid reasons for both of those, but I disagree with them and wold not wnat to work with a lawyer who gives that advice.

 

[patmccoy]

The objective of any insurance company is not to pay claims. It is to collect premiums.

Like any business, the objective of insurance companies is to make a profit. Paying claims and other operating expenses less than the premiums collected, plus interest earned on those premiums, is how they make a profit (which is closely watched by state regulators to be sufficient to remain in business). But DO read the contract as the large print giveth, while the fine print taketh away.

 

[1KPerDay]

I will personally never consider USCCA because their ads are so frickin' annoying. Same with Burger King. Don't care how good (or not) it is. You're not getting any of my money.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

ACLDN isn't insurance nor a company.

ACLDN is a cooperative.

 

[JDeere]

Bottom line USCCA has a clause as an out not to cover you in whatever situation they deem inappropriate...Do your homework and read the fine print...

 

[Mike P Wagner]

Bottom line USCCA has a clause as an out not to cover you in whatever situation they deem inappropriate...Do your homework and read the fine print...

My question is whether or not they - or any other insurance reseller - have any choice in the matter. If their insurance company is prevented by law from insuring criminal acts, it seems hard to argue that they should do.

For example, I have heard before that you cannot buy insurance for injuries sustained while robbing a bank; life insurance doesn’t cover suicide, etc.

It sound as though the exclusion of “intentional acts” may be statutory, though I can’t tell if that is up to state regulators.

ACLDN - which sounds like a cooperative and may be less regulated - may be the way to go.

 

[AUhiker]

Uscca doesn’t directly pay for attorney fees out of their pockets. They have an insurance company they go through that provides the money. ACLDN is member funded. It has a pool that a certain percentage of membership fees goes into and they use that money to fund all fees. In other words ACLDN already has the month in hand. They just need to determine whether it was justifiable or not. I personally feel like that’s the best reliable way to go. No insurance company or underwriter to deal with. Not to mention uscca seeks recoupment fees if you take a plea deal. That’s a dealbreaker up front to me.

 

[Mike P Wagner]

Uscca doesn’t directly pay for attorney fees out of their pockets. They have an insurance company they go through that provides the money. ACLDN is member funded. It has a pool that a certain percentage of membership fees goes into and they use that money to fund all fees. In other words ACLDN already has the month in hand. They just need to determine whether it was justifiable or not. I personally feel like that’s the best reliable way to go. No insurance company or underwriter to deal with. Not to mention uscca seeks recoupment fees if you take a plea deal. That’s a dealbreaker up front to me.

This sounds like a better plan.

 

[Elkins45]

A few details to know as you browse the mess on YouTube:
1. Not every post-event support program is actually insurance. You have to look at the details of each to know whether they are.
2. Each program updates and changes to their coverage and services. Do not rely on any other source on what their comparative tables show; go to the program's own web site to read their current details.
3. If a comparison reference you see includes NRA Carry Guard, it is so far out of date as to be totally worthless. Carry Guard was shut down four years ago.
4. The current ugliness on YT started about a year ago when AOR began their attack-the-competitors advertising program by making claims about other programs, some of which might be considered a bit misleading. So far I have seen that they have attacked USCCA, CCWSafe, and ACLDN. They may have others on their radar, too.
5. Go to the YT channel for each of the programs AOR has attacked to see their responses. In particular, the response from ACLDN told me a bit more background about the methods AOR is using in this process.
6. On a personal level, I consider, as pointed out above, that ACLDN and CCWSafe as the best programs for my needs.
7. I wrote off Marc Victor (owner of AOR) as giving meaningful advice for me years before he founded AOR. When he was still working with John Correia on Johns' Briefs episodes of Active Self Protection YT videos, in one video he gave the standard criminal defense lawyer advice to say nothing at all, instead of recognizing the value of Massad Ayoob's advice to say five time-critical things and then lawyer up. In another, he recommended carrrying with an empty chamber. There are valid reasons for both of those, but I disagree with them and wold not wnat to work with a lawyer who gives that advice.

I’m sorry, what is AOR?

 

[CapnMac]

I’m sorry, what is AOR?

I'm reasonably sure that's Attorneys On Retainer. An Arizona based Law Firm, dba https://attorneysforfreedom.com/ (originally Marc J. Victor P.C.).

Their 'sales pitch' is rather than providing an "insurance" against costs incurred as a result of a shooting incident, they provide an actual, on-call, attorney who is specialized in "gun law."

 

[Craig_AR]

I’m sorry, what is AOR?

Oops yes I should have spelled out Attorneys on Retainer (AoR), Mark VIctor's company and the source of the series of videos attacking most all of the AoR competitors.

 

[CapnMac]

Now, whether or not the antics of one company versus another in videos on YT hardy seems to have little bearing on Firearms Law or Legislation.

Whether one policy or another is better is an individual decision, and only tangentially associated with Statutes.

So, I'm not seeing where "we" gain that much in debating this here in Legal. And one video claiming the sky is azure, and not blue as a competitor claims seems even less germane.

 

[rust collector]

There is no consensus on fair, video channels have nothing to do with fair, and this is an issue of whose product, if any, meets the needs of the consumer. Time to clear the channel.