I'm not arguing bullet to bore fit either. I'm arguing bullet to freebore fit, which does affect OAL. If the freebore is short, the ogjive will hit the rifling sooner than if the freebore were longer. But in his frustration, the OP is considering sizing the bullet smaller, and this is absolutely the wrong thing to do.
It has to be oversized lead, right?
- Thread starter bangbig
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I'm not arguing bullet to bore fit either. I'm arguing bullet to freebore fit, which does affect OAL. If the freebore is short, the ogjive will hit the rifling sooner than if the freebore were longer. But in his frustration, the OP is considering sizing the bullet smaller, and this is absolutely the wrong thing to do.
When loaded to 1.150 min COL per Lee's reloading manual they don't chamber in my:
Browning HP
FN FNX
Taurus 709
but they will chamber in my S&W 909.
I tried seating to 1.120 as a non firing test round and it would chamber in the FNX but still not in the BHP and 709.
And FWIW I never said that they would not go through the bores, I said that "they wouldn't work" in my pistols. I think it may have more to do with the shape of the bullet vs. chamber than the 1 thousandth oversize. Since I don't want to make pistol specific ammo and I don't yet feel comfortable in going "off the books" to brew up new loadings, I switched back to Berry's plated bullets for my 9mm and will use the .357 sized Smallball in some other application. YMMV
Browning HP
FN FNX
Taurus 709
but they will chamber in my S&W 909.
I tried seating to 1.120 as a non firing test round and it would chamber in the FNX but still not in the BHP and 709.
And FWIW I never said that they would not go through the bores, I said that "they wouldn't work" in my pistols. I think it may have more to do with the shape of the bullet vs. chamber than the 1 thousandth oversize. Since I don't want to make pistol specific ammo and I don't yet feel comfortable in going "off the books" to brew up new loadings, I switched back to Berry's plated bullets for my 9mm and will use the .357 sized Smallball in some other application. YMMV
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MBC replied to an email sent off this morning! Seem to think the bullet is the issue as well. Fired off a couple more questions/comments and we'll go from there. Seems like they are willing to make me happy regardless.
Regarding bullet to free-bore, I thought varying oal's would confirm that, no?
Also, I do not want a round that will only fit a specific firearm. If it doesn't fit ALL 9mm's/max case gauge, that is all that matters to me. I want ammo that will fire in the Kahr in question as well as the wife's Glock, or any other that may come along.
Maybe this is not possible with this particular bullet style???
Regarding bullet to free-bore, I thought varying oal's would confirm that, no?
Also, I do not want a round that will only fit a specific firearm. If it doesn't fit ALL 9mm's/max case gauge, that is all that matters to me. I want ammo that will fire in the Kahr in question as well as the wife's Glock, or any other that may come along.
Maybe this is not possible with this particular bullet style???
LiveLife
Member
Yes, great company.bangbig said:
I also load for multiple pistols (family/friends/neighbors who may join me to the range) and need to ensure the finished rounds will feed/chamber in their pistols. Lone Wolf barrels have just about the tightest chambers I know (Yes, even tighter than KKM) and will allow .377" taper crimp round to fall in the chamber freely and 1.080"-1.100" OAL will feed/chamber reliably from the magazine in most pistols.
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Not possible with 9mm lead bullets. With them you need a perfect fit otherwise they'll lead up the barrel. Bullet to freebore fit is not necessarily confirmed by varying the OAL, as the bullet nose may hit the top of the lands before the shank ever makes it into the freebore.
I use Missouri's Cowboy #2 at 1.040" OAL in my 9, and it is snug in the freebore and touching the rifling. I think maybe that is what you need. Lee 357-125-RF .358" bullets have been successfully used in the CZ in that OAL range. And they are alot more unforgiving of short freebores. Good accuracy and no leading.
Lost Sheep
Member
I am still suspecting that these bullets are bulging the cases (either at the mouth or further down the case) enough to impede chambering.
I have looked through the thread and still do not see where that has been ruled out with certainty. The O.P.'s post #17 notwithstanding. Thick casing walls, oversized bullets or an undersized chamber or a combination of those factors, I think, could be the source.
My first thought (see post #2) is to measure the diameter of a freshly fired case (which would be the closest approximation to a chamber cast as I can think of without actually doing a chamber cast) and compare to a loaded round.
Lost Sheep
p.s. If the OAL or ogive is suspected, I suggest painting the nose of the bullet, chambering/extracting the round and inspecting the paint for marks from anything impeding chambering. White-out should work.
I have looked through the thread and still do not see where that has been ruled out with certainty. The O.P.'s post #17 notwithstanding. Thick casing walls, oversized bullets or an undersized chamber or a combination of those factors, I think, could be the source.
My first thought (see post #2) is to measure the diameter of a freshly fired case (which would be the closest approximation to a chamber cast as I can think of without actually doing a chamber cast) and compare to a loaded round.
Lost Sheep
p.s. If the OAL or ogive is suspected, I suggest painting the nose of the bullet, chambering/extracting the round and inspecting the paint for marks from anything impeding chambering. White-out should work.
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Great idea!!!!! I painted a loaded round with a sharpie, bullet and brass. The "stopping point" is the case. Prolly about where the bottom of the bullet would be or just above. Flared brass more, same. Flared brass less to the point where I struggled to get a bullet to stay put to seat, same.
So, Id have to say these bullets are expanding the brass to the point where they will not go in a max cartridge gauge which is apparently REAL CLOSE to what the chamber is.
Ok, guess I'll see if MBC has some that are at .356. These are def .357 wiped clean of lube. Still can't believe .001 makes that much diff?!
Mystery solved?
So, Id have to say these bullets are expanding the brass to the point where they will not go in a max cartridge gauge which is apparently REAL CLOSE to what the chamber is.
Ok, guess I'll see if MBC has some that are at .356. These are def .357 wiped clean of lube. Still can't believe .001 makes that much diff?!
Mystery solved?
LiveLife
Member
bangbig, for my tight chambered Sig 1911 and Lone Wolf barrels, .001" will make all the difference whether they will fully chamber or not.
Looks like you may have gotten a box of .357" sized bullets. Let us know how the .356" sized bullets work out for your pistol/barrel.
Looks like you may have gotten a box of .357" sized bullets. Let us know how the .356" sized bullets work out for your pistol/barrel.
James2
Member
Hmmmm, lots of good ideas.
Sometimes a too tight crimp can bulge the case a bit. Also shaved lead can be a problem. Use enough bell to allow the bullet to seat with no shaving, and set the crimp to just take out the belling.
If these things are right, the bullet diameter and brass thickness are the other things to look at. My Lyman manual suggests cast bullets at .356.
Sometimes a too tight crimp can bulge the case a bit. Also shaved lead can be a problem. Use enough bell to allow the bullet to seat with no shaving, and set the crimp to just take out the belling.
If these things are right, the bullet diameter and brass thickness are the other things to look at. My Lyman manual suggests cast bullets at .356.
But I want it to fit the case gauge as I want these loads to fit in ALL guns. So why would it matter what my chamber is if any load that fits the gauge fits my chamber?
Because if you use a lead bullet sized small enough to pass your case gauge, it will severely lead your CZ.
It is not possible to create a load using a lead bullet that will pass your case gauge and fit in all 9mm's and won't lead in any of them. If you want to shoot lead, you have to make the load gun specific. Otherwise use plated .355" bullets.
It is not possible to create a load using a lead bullet that will pass your case gauge and fit in all 9mm's and won't lead in any of them. If you want to shoot lead, you have to make the load gun specific. Otherwise use plated .355" bullets.
LiveLife
Member
Bangbig, I load for multiple pistols and use the smallest barrel/chamber as my working "gauge".
I typically use Lone Wolf barrels as my chamber "gauge" for 9mm/40S&W as they have tighter chamber than most factory barrels and Sig 1911 barrel for 45ACP.
Missouri 125 gr RN sized at .356" with. 377" taper crimp at 1.080" - 1.100" OAL have worked well in various pistols, even in Lone Wolf barrels.
I typically use Lone Wolf barrels as my chamber "gauge" for 9mm/40S&W as they have tighter chamber than most factory barrels and Sig 1911 barrel for 45ACP.
Missouri 125 gr RN sized at .356" with. 377" taper crimp at 1.080" - 1.100" OAL have worked well in various pistols, even in Lone Wolf barrels.
Lost Sheep
Member
Is this a case where the Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die) might be of use?
The FCD has a feature (aside from providing a convenient crimp) that sizes the finished cartridge, supposedly guaranteeing the round will chamber in any SAAMI-spec chamber.
That is the sole purpose of the Post-Sizing function.
Now, I will admit that this post-sizing (especially with lead bullets) sometimes creates new problems (reducing neck tension, allowing setback while cycling through the action and reducing lead bullet diameter, which may set you up for leading of the barrel). But aside from those things (which MAY OR MAY NOT occur), it seems to me that the FCD might cure the chambering hesitation.
Lost Sheep
Edit: Yes, pay attention to bds' post #44. I am well aware of the dangers of insufficient neck tension and sending undersized bullets down the bore and did not emphasize them. I have not found them to be common, but I believe they are real.
But if the bore is the right size for these bullets AFTER them being compressed by the FCD's post-sizing, AND bullet setback does not become a problem the FCD would be a more convenient solution than re-sizing all these .357" bullets, you think? It would not be as good a solution as having bought properly sized bullets in the first place, but if it works, it works.
On the other hand, we still have not ruled out that the chamber itself could be undersized and a gunsmith's attention to the GUN would solve the RELOADING problem.
I am just brainstorming here.
The FCD has a feature (aside from providing a convenient crimp) that sizes the finished cartridge, supposedly guaranteeing the round will chamber in any SAAMI-spec chamber.
That is the sole purpose of the Post-Sizing function.
Now, I will admit that this post-sizing (especially with lead bullets) sometimes creates new problems (reducing neck tension, allowing setback while cycling through the action and reducing lead bullet diameter, which may set you up for leading of the barrel). But aside from those things (which MAY OR MAY NOT occur), it seems to me that the FCD might cure the chambering hesitation.
Lost Sheep
Edit: Yes, pay attention to bds' post #44. I am well aware of the dangers of insufficient neck tension and sending undersized bullets down the bore and did not emphasize them. I have not found them to be common, but I believe they are real.
But if the bore is the right size for these bullets AFTER them being compressed by the FCD's post-sizing, AND bullet setback does not become a problem the FCD would be a more convenient solution than re-sizing all these .357" bullets, you think? It would not be as good a solution as having bought properly sized bullets in the first place, but if it works, it works.
On the other hand, we still have not ruled out that the chamber itself could be undersized and a gunsmith's attention to the GUN would solve the RELOADING problem.
I am just brainstorming here.
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LiveLife
Member
Lost Sheep, only if FCD's carbide sizer ring has been enlarged for .356" lead bullet (I think Lee Precision provides this service for $15).
Trouble is that Lee Precision meant for the carbide sizer ring to work with .355" diameter jacketed bullets.
Running the finished rounds with larger sized (.357") bullets through the FCD will certainly post-size the lead bullet diameter (how many time have you read "bullet fit to barrel is king?") and although the finished rounds may feed reliably into the chamber, you will definitely decrease the bullet-to-barrel fit (which will increase leading) and neck tension, especially with thinner and work hardened cases, that will result in bullet setback when the bullet bumps the feed ramp.
For me, best way to check neck tension and bullet set back is to measure the OAL before and after feeding/chambering from the magazine and manually releasing the slide. If you see decrease in OAL by several thousandths, you have bullet set back that may increase chamber pressure, especially if you are near max load data.
Trouble is that Lee Precision meant for the carbide sizer ring to work with .355" diameter jacketed bullets.
Running the finished rounds with larger sized (.357") bullets through the FCD will certainly post-size the lead bullet diameter (how many time have you read "bullet fit to barrel is king?") and although the finished rounds may feed reliably into the chamber, you will definitely decrease the bullet-to-barrel fit (which will increase leading) and neck tension, especially with thinner and work hardened cases, that will result in bullet setback when the bullet bumps the feed ramp.
For me, best way to check neck tension and bullet set back is to measure the OAL before and after feeding/chambering from the magazine and manually releasing the slide. If you see decrease in OAL by several thousandths, you have bullet set back that may increase chamber pressure, especially if you are near max load data.
LiveLife
Member
Yes, I stand corrected - almost.
For the 9mm "tapered case", FCD's carbide sizer ring won't touch the "case mouth" with both .356" and .357" sized lead bullets (had to take out my 9mm FCD to check), but the FCD's carbide sizer ring just starts to touch the "case neck" at the base of the seated bullets.
Having said that, use of 9mm FCD still won't resolve OP's chambering problem as the FCD will simply reduce the lower most portion of the seated bullet and not the case mouth portion (which I think is preventing the finished rounds to fully chamber).
I still think the OP has a tight chambered barrel and received a box of .357" sized bullets and if that's the case, .356" sized bullets with .377" taper crimp should allow the finished rounds to fully chamber.
I guess we'll find out in time.
For the 9mm "tapered case", FCD's carbide sizer ring won't touch the "case mouth" with both .356" and .357" sized lead bullets (had to take out my 9mm FCD to check), but the FCD's carbide sizer ring just starts to touch the "case neck" at the base of the seated bullets.
Having said that, use of 9mm FCD still won't resolve OP's chambering problem as the FCD will simply reduce the lower most portion of the seated bullet and not the case mouth portion (which I think is preventing the finished rounds to fully chamber).
I still think the OP has a tight chambered barrel and received a box of .357" sized bullets and if that's the case, .356" sized bullets with .377" taper crimp should allow the finished rounds to fully chamber.
I guess we'll find out in time.
I disagree.
From what I gather, his chamber is not tight. His freebore is short, but not tight. He is unnecessarily concerned with his case gauge. He should figure out his freebore diameter, use the right size bullet, seat short enough to chamber in all his 9s, and test the stuff.
From what I gather, his chamber is not tight. His freebore is short, but not tight. He is unnecessarily concerned with his case gauge. He should figure out his freebore diameter, use the right size bullet, seat short enough to chamber in all his 9s, and test the stuff.
Lost Sheep
Member
It will if the bullet bulges the case mouth enough to make over SAAMI specs.Yes, I stand corrected - almost.
For the 9mm "tapered case", FCD's carbide sizer ring won't touch the "case mouth" with both .356" and .357" sized lead bullets (had to take out my 9mm FCD to check), but the FCD's carbide sizer ring just starts to touch the "case neck" at the base of the seated bullets.
That is assuming the FCD was properly made. Assuming the chamber is not too small. Assuming the ogive of the bullet is not hitting the rifling.
This could happen if the brass is thick-walled (in addition to the .357" bullets). It SHOULDN'T; the taper crimp should squish the case mouth to chamber fit, but just below the mouth, it might not be enough. I just do not have enough information to make a blanket statement.
I tend to agree that it is the case mouth causing the problem, but the FCD is SUPPOSED to take care of that, isn't it?
That does seem most likely.
Lost Sheep
LiveLife
Member
Lost Sheep, I think so.
At this point, all we have that is essentially factual is that the OP bought some .357" sized 9mm lead bullets.
I gave OP the consideration that the taper crimp used on the case, OAL used and the accuracy of the calipers and micrometer are good. Only thing I would have suggested for the OP to check is crushing of the case during seating and bulging the case, but that may not be the case here as OP indicated sufficient flare was used to seat the bullet.
That leaves the tightness of the chamber in question.
If the OP's problem disappears with .356" sized bullets, all of our guessing/discussions would be moot.
Instead of any further analysis, I am going to wait on the OP to report back.
At this point, all we have that is essentially factual is that the OP bought some .357" sized 9mm lead bullets.
I gave OP the consideration that the taper crimp used on the case, OAL used and the accuracy of the calipers and micrometer are good. Only thing I would have suggested for the OP to check is crushing of the case during seating and bulging the case, but that may not be the case here as OP indicated sufficient flare was used to seat the bullet.
That leaves the tightness of the chamber in question.
If the OP's problem disappears with .356" sized bullets, all of our guessing/discussions would be moot.
Instead of any further analysis, I am going to wait on the OP to report back.
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