ITTS Gunskul!

[BerettaNut92]

Just finished up a 3-day intermediate handgun course with ITTS.

Moving hostage targets w/ instructor screwing with us...check
Working around a car prone...check
Exiting a vehicle and engaging BG's....check
Engaging targets w/ vehicle as cover...check (yeeow, those things get hot)
Working up a trail with shoots, no shoots, lotsa brush and rattlesnakes with instructor critiquing our tactics and movement (and Benelli for the snakes)...check
104 degrees all three days (it's the dry heat)...check
Sadistic instructors screwing with us by setting up different malfunctions...check
Shooting at a laterally moving target at 25 yards....check

Lots of work on steel targets. Course was intermediate level but very demanding. Scott 'There's-No-Crying-In-Gunfighting-You-@*$@&!%-Cupcakes!' Reitz is an excellent instructor. $350 or so for the whole weekend (Fri-Sun) well worth the time and a very good value. For $150-ish a day for all the steel, cars, moving targets, trail, hostage targets, it's a damn bargain. If you are in the lower half of California, ITTS is a must-visit for true Disciples of Tacticality.

 

[El Tejon]

Must get there! Lone and I talked about a trip this weekend.

See you out there, brasshoppper.

 

[BerettaNut92]

Amen brother Fumblefingers!

 

[atek3]

I too attended the ITTS class w/ skunk. 375 for 3 days was a good deal. However, unlike Mr. The Skunk, I had to fly down from berkeley, CA. So I had to add airfare, hotel, and car rental. But it was still well worth it. Up here in the bay area, our training school only has static paper targets. Not so at ITTS. Heavy emphasis on steel, poppers, and moving targets. A welcome change in my routine. Another big change was the LEO to non-LEO ratio. This class was maybe 70% LEO so it was interesting seeing people shoot guns not of their own choosing. Minor Correction, on day 3 it was 108
Probably the only thing that kept me alive that weekend was a Camelbak Stealth I kept refilling with ice.
Scott was definatly a competant instructor. Very serious about his students surviving gunfights. He constantly reminded us that we were training for gunfights, not fun. One Caveat though, Scott is probably a lil 'hardcore' for most new students. Brett who I think teaches or co-teaches their new shooter classes was much more 'user-friendly'. One old fellow had a lot of ingrained bad habits, Scott was pretty 'rough' with him. I'm certainly glad I wasn't in the old man's shoes. The stress having Mr. SWAT stand over you was enough for me to blow easy shots. I think that was intended, however, as a real gun fight would be A LOT more stressful. Oh ya, If you are going to the class with bad habits. Bring 4 or 5 cases of Corona, you'll understand if you attend
This isn't a critique of ITTS or its instructor's, just an observation. I've noticed an awful lot of 'trash-talking' about gun instructors by other gun instructors.
I've heard people called, 'frauds', 'fakes', 'cooper-clones', 'incompetant'. If someone is a fraud, then thats fine, let it be known. However, most of the name calling I've heard has been COMPLETELY unsubstantiated.

atek3

PS It was pretty cool meeting skunkabilly in person. He's a nice guy.

 

[shooten]

Sounds great. Is there a web page? How far from San Diego? Could be interesting.

thanks,

Scott

 

[BerettaNut92]

>> Minor Correction, on day 3 it was 108

Was it really? LOL I thought it was just in my head.

>> Probably the only thing that kept me alive that weekend was a Camelbak Stealth I kept refilling with ice.

Yeah, don't forget whose Crisis Response Vehicle you filched 2 liters of water from, buddy!!!

>> PS It was pretty cool meeting skunkabilly in person. He's a nice guy.

Awww shucks....

shooten:
www.intltactical.com

 

[DaveH2]

If you can't take the heat at ITTS, don't go.

Scott has a distinctive style of teaching which produces results, and if you are in an intermediate class, you should be squared away. Period.

We are lucky that he has chosen to provide his expertise and training to non-LEO.

Brett is great!

 

[Quartus]

Uh, about that website? Do they have one?

 

[kcrowder]

Folks, Scott is really a nice little pussycat. I've had classes and private lessons with Scott, had I made the same mistakes over and over, he might have had a few choice words for me. Pay attention, do what they tell you to do, and you will get much better.

 

[atek3]

hahah 'squared away'
that was a real ITTS phrase
I was 'squared away' and was spared a LOT of beratement
I was just issuing a warning for people who stink.

atek3

 

[DaveH2]

Atek3: How often have you trained with ITTS and or Scott? I would say that if the Intermediate Handgun class has been your only experience, one 3 day class is not enough of a statistical sampling, but that's just me. I have personally seen Scott handle some inexperienced shooters, some that have NEVER shot a gun before, and he was not as you described. Did you take a basic class with ITTS with Scott as the primary instructor?

In your post, you were noting some observations. Specifically, what was your observation, the trash talking or the hard time that the "old fellow" was given? It is unclear in your post.

 

[Fred]

Ditto to what DaveH2 said.

I've spent 21 days training @ ITTS and my experience has been very positive. I'm heading out there in about an hour for a five day tactical class.

I'll post a review next week.

HTH

 

[atek3]

Atek3: How often have you trained with ITTS and or Scott? I would say that if the Intermediate Handgun class has been your only experience, one 3 day class is not enough of a statistical sampling, but that's just me. I have personally seen Scott handle some inexperienced shooters, some that have NEVER shot a gun before, and he was not as you described. Did you take a basic class with ITTS with Scott as the primary instructor?

In your post, you were noting some observations. Specifically, what was your observation, the trash talking or the hard time that the "old fellow" was given? It is unclear in your post.

You're probably right, 3 days isn't enough to understand every thing about that school. I'm just giving the impressions that I picked up from 3 days of class. I think scott may have been frustrated with the shooter. New shooters are just that... New, they don't have 30 years of bad habits to undo. This old fellow was in an intermediate level class, but clearly didn't have the skills necessary to shoot safely and accurately. Scott tried to get him 'squared away', but brett scott and he had a conference and he didn't come back for IIB and IIC. He was going to get private instruction. There was stone cold new shooter in the class who was given some coaching on thursday to get him ready, and while scott did have a few choice words with him when he left his finger inside the trigger guard, he wasn't mean about it. Haven't taken any basic classes with them.
The observation re: trashtalking was just that I've noticed pretty much every gun instructor I've been to has interesting and not so flattering things to say about other gun instructors, if you want more details PM me.

Hope that clarifies stuff a little,
atek3

 

[BerettaNut92]

To be fair, I don't think Scott was any rougher on him than anyone else. He does the Lee Ermey thing to everyone, including those can keep up, but screw up. Why? Probably so each little bad habit or slip doesn't become reinforced. That's why I'm paying $100+ a day, so someone can hit me over the head if I screw up.

I'm surprised they had a new shooter in the class. I consider myself a quick learner (when languages aren't involved, at least) and found the class quite a challenge keeping up. Scott had some 'choice words', but does for everybody (and that's why we love him)

I think he made the right decision to have the guy do some privates. My last class with another skul, a guy next to me with an M1A wasn't entirely 'switched on', and I was pretty nervous...I don't like getting shot.

 

[Denny Hansen]

In full agreement with Brother Erick and have never heard anyone who I have trained under bad-mouth another instructor in front of the class. However, there are some (mostly late-comers) who attempt to cover their own faults by attempting to make others look bad. Caveat Emptor.

Denny

 

[El Tejon]

Those who have to criticize others are those whose minds are void.

 

[Mute]

Don't confuse an instructor's teaching style with his true personality. As to criticizing other instructors, I would generally stay away from any who would do such a thing. I've been to a few different firearms instructors, and while they've had disagreements on methodology and philosophy with other instructors, they've never insulted or talked down the other instructors.

 

[BerettaNut92]

The observation re: trashtalking was just that I've noticed pretty much every gun instructor I've been to has interesting and not so flattering things to say about other gun instructors, if you want more details PM me.

Atek, was this all from the other weekend? I just remember hearing him saying that so and so instructor (I don't even know who they were talking about) wasn't with LAPD SWAT like some bio had indicated.

 

[atek3]

He and one of the cops there were talking about two instructors, one who says he went to vietnam and was a ranger, they said he'd never been. The other was convicted of felony fraud but essentially tried to hide that fact. It was all from that weekend.

atek3

 

[DaveH2]

Certain people have misrepresented or at least not corrected some information in their resumes in the firearms training industry. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon in today's society for that to happen, whether in academia, professional sports, or firearms/martial arts training, etc.

Those who are charlatans deserve to be pointed out as such. People's lives depend on it. If the information provided by the training is not sound, good guys end up dead. Now I wasn't there, but if the comments were as represented by the listener, I don't see it as bad mouthing in the traditional sense. If you present some information as to your background, you should be able to back it up.

Caveat Emptor (as Mr. Hansen said).

 

[Brett McQueen]

Badmouthing other instructors

Recently someone emailed me regarding this thread. I try to stay out of these discussions because I don't see the need to comment on what people say about ITTS one way or another as long as it is not incorrect or misleading, although I have let those go too. It can be a never-ending dialogue, and frankly neither I nor Scott have the time or the inclination to get into a verbal contest with others. But I really feel compelled to comment on a few things that were brought up by atek3.

First of all, I'd like to set the record straight that ITTS is not only for "high-speed" shooters. While its' true that many of our students are advanced level shooters, we also welcome brand new shooters with open arms. Bill Kelly and I teach all the basic handgun class. Scott taught a few basic classes in the last year because I could not, but this was the exception, not the rule. It might actually surprise some of you to see him being very low-key and patient with beginners!!! When we started out 14 years ago, he and I team-taught all the basic classes together and Scott was extremely patient.

In regard to the "older" man in the intermediate class, he is a schoolteacher who has been shooting for 30 plus years, and who also teaches shooting somewhere. He called me and insisted that he was up to snuff for the intermediate level class. Being the pushover that I am, I let him sign up. Mea culpa! He apparently hadn't learned to keep his finger off the trigger when not on target and Scott was frustrated with him because he posed a threat to everyone's safety. No misshap occured, but he was violating one of the basic safety rules. Those of you who have trained with us know that we pride ourselves on the fact that we have never had an accident on our range and safety is strictly enforced. As trainers, it is our responsiblity to guarantee that you will be safe on our range at all times and if that means that we have to ask someone to leave the range, we make no apologies. I don't think that any of you would want it any other way. The man in question also concurred when I spoke to him after the class and he was not at all upset with Scott and respected the fact that we would not compromise on safety. He plans on pursuing the training with us on a one-on-one basis.

Now touching on a REALLY sensitive issue.....bad-mouthing other instructors. Guys who are or have been on the L.A.P.D. SWAT team have sacrificed a great deal (and so have their families) to make it a highly-respected SWAT unit. Those who misrepresent themselves as L.A.P.D. SWAT or trainers for L.A.P.D. SWAT denegrade the unit's reputation and devalue the men who have put their lives on the line. This is a question of pride and ethics. So when you ask Scott about instructors who he feels have been less than honest, it is a touchy subject for him as it would be for any of the guys who have been on SWAT. As many of you know, Scott does not strive to be politically correct!! He tells it like he sees it. But he will give you an honest answer. You can count on it.

Another issue is that we do expert witness testimony in shooting cases and we know what happens in court. We try to impart this knowledge to our students at every turn. Should one of you get into a shooting, there is a strong possiblity that your training and instructors' credentials will be brought into question. Misrepresentations by you or your instructor would be brought out in a court of law. In any court case, the weakest link is going to be exploited to its fullest. It's not enough to say, "I didn't know". It is incumbent upon you to know who is giving you training and to check out their credentials. (Those of you who attended our 5 day course know what I'm talking about. You heard it firsthand from the legal experts.) It is not enough to learn how to shoot proficiently. You must also learn how to avoid a bad shooting. If you ask us who we recommend as instructors, or want to use our classes as a forum for advertising your favorite instructor, we will tell you what we think. Please...don't bring it up if you don't want to hear the response!

Brett McQueen
Director, ITTS

 

[BerettaNut92]

Scott does not strive to be politically correct!!

 

[tetleyb]

As stated in another post, I was at this training class also. I am the other "police officer" accused of "trash talking," etc. I do believe, alot of this was taken out of context and "overheard." However, the facts of the conversations were not heard and many things have been said here, which were never said.

Brett McQueen said it perfectly: If your involved in a shooting, your instructors and your training can be called into court. You should know your instructors background, etc.

I DID NOT bring up any instructors backgrounds, etc in that class. It was other persons in the class that did. I am also an "expert witness" in use of force, firearms related, and I gave Scott my opinion on what I know. I won't go into any further details here. However, if you want to talk with me, I will explain more in a PM.

As to the class itself: It was quite good. I've attended NUMEROUS training courses around the world. I would definately rank ITTS WAY up in the training level. Scott teaches basics, bascis, and more basics. There is no magic to shooting; except mastering those basics.

I will be taking another one of his classes very soon.

 

[kcrowder]

I'm watching the end of a DVD with my nephew last night, "A Man Apart", it sucked, and right at the end guess whose face pops into view. Mr. ITTS somehow pulls a M4 out of his pants and helps get the bad guy, good job Scott, but don't quit your day job.

 

[BerettaNut92]

What's 'A Man Apart'? Scott Reitz is in it?