Jews against guns

[sfhogman]

Also, here:
http://www.gunownersalliance.com/AskTheRabbi.htm

 

[arthurcw]

It seems like most religious groups have equated being holy and non violent with being helpless and unable to defend one’s self

I can’t for the life of me see a religious reason to hate guns. “Thou shalt not kill,” ends when someone tries to kill you or harm your family.

What I really don’t understand is that, given how “lovely” the world has treated the Jews (not just in the 20th century) it would seem to me that they would be the first group to say, “From my cold dead hands.”

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

I'd label myself a lapsed pagan,if anything,and I am VERY pro gun and could not care less what religion anyone else is.You are either pro 2nd Amendment or against and who what or where you worship is irrelevent.

 

[Str8Shooter]

This is an outstanding article on the subject: http://www.jpfo.org/alert20010903.htm

Here's another paradox I keep wondering about: I would assume that most American Jews feel at least some amount of attachment or kinship to the nation of Israel, yet so many vote for the liberal politicians who would most like to withdraw U.S. support from that nation.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

What I really don’t understand is that, given how “lovely” the world has treated the Jews (not just in the 20th century) it would seem to me that they would be the first group to say, “From my cold dead hands.”

So it would seem to a reasonable man. But the traditional Jewish response is just the opposite. Here is how Raul Hilberg put it: "I had to examine the Jewish tradition of trusting God, princes, laws and contracts [...] Ultimately I had to ponder the Jewish calculation that the persecutor would not destroy what he could economically exploit. It was precisely this Jewish strategy that dictated accommodation and precluded resistance." But the gentile world still expects its Jews to vest their trust in God, princes, laws and contracts. This remains so even in America, the society historically and politically unexcelled in its scope and degree of tolerance and accommodation of dissent and diversity.

 

[squinn14]

Doesn't the state of Israel have one of the highest rates of civilian gun ownership in the world?

 

[Michael Zeleny]

Doesn't the state of Israel have one of the highest rates of civilian gun ownership in the world?

Israel makes it very hard for civilians to have guns.

 

[SniperStraz]

First off: James T Thomas, I know this isn’t the place, but Philistine and “Palestinian” are two very different things. PM me if you need more info.

Cosmoline: As an observant religious Jew I can tell you with utmost confidence that killing an animal for any reason other than to eat it, for survival, or because it is a threat to you or those around you it is against Jewish law.

Moving on: I don’t know if this means anything to you guys, but I would dare to say that there are more guns in my synagogue on Saturday than most churches on Sunday. This is not to say that I think there are enough Jews with guns by any means. More Jews with guns would be great, but we Jews do take pretty good care of ourselves for the most part. That isn’t just in GA either. But there’s always that Jewish politician who has to make a bunch of noise for no reason. There are all kinds of Jews, but I think that most Jews that say “I don’t need a gun” probably have a .38 in their closet somewhere.
My .02

 

[Durruti]

Here's another paradox I keep wondering about: I would assume that most American Jews feel at least some amount of attachment or kinship to the nation of Israel, yet so many vote for the liberal politicians who would most like to withdraw U.S. support from that nation.

Is there much of a movement among liberal politicians to remove support for Israel? I haven't seen anything like that. Israel has gotten pretty solid support from both parties for decades.

 

[PILMAN]

Is there much of a movement among liberal politicians to remove support for Israel? I haven't seen anything like that. Israel has gotten pretty solid support from both parties for decades.

Most of the liberal Jews are the ones who "expose" Israel to make her look bad. Basically they are anti-zionist and claim Israel occupys Palestinian land (which really isn't recognized as land owned by anyone) and it really baffles me to be honest with you that any Jew would be against a Jewish state.

Also on posession of a firearm, it's very difficult to get a firearm however if you are a settler in the territorys then you can own a handgun, if you are a reservist you can own a handgun or a rifle.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Think of the fact that before we tried toget educations to make ourselves valuable to the gentiles, we herded goats, sheep, cows. We were a pastoral people who had much control over how, when and why our livestock would die. While hunting and killing animals in a modern fashion may be very humane and safe, and we may properly bleed the animals, and whatnot, well, it isn't kashrut.

Myself I only went hunting once, brought up the topic with my rabbi who told me why he didn't so much care either way about my owning guns, but did say that hunting isn't strictly kosher, and explained it using the Torah, and I haven't hunted since.

Granted, I am Reform, and it wasn't exactly a glaring "this is wrong." But I asked if it was kosher, and he explained to me that it isn't and explained the opinion, so I took it.

That being said, I have never owned guns for the purpose of hunting per se, so it wasn't exactly a big loss for me.

 

[kd7nqb]

I asked the same opposite question. I see groups like JPFO and I assumed it was kinda the tin foil hat croud all over again, I still support them becasue the overall mission is a postive one.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

That being said, I have never owned guns for the purpose of hunting per se, so it wasn't exactly a big loss for me.

The loss belongs to the entire nation. The Jews came to liberal capitalism from ancient subservience and mediaeval segregation, untempered by any vestiges of aristocratic values. Within their spectrum, hunting is an expression of man's dominion over nature. Repudiating it is all of a piece with our passive legacy of submission.

 

[woerm]

Pilman,

naa,

One shot, one kill,

that's why I use a .308/30-06

So far nothing in the sights has a much as wiggled after the arrivial of the messenger.

the rabbinic charge, ie the Talmud, not the Torah per se, IIRC translates something like 'be humane'.


however I am so *not* a rabbi, the above is tranlated from one of guys I used to hunt with.

r

 

[Cosmoline]

Cosmoline: As an observant religious Jew I can tell you with utmost confidence that killing an animal for any reason other than to eat it, for survival, or because it is a threat to you or those around you it is against Jewish law.

How is it observant Jews make a living in the fur trade, then? Does survival include economic survival? Maybe you can specify what prohibition it violates.

 

[SniperStraz]

It violates a prohibition with origins in a law that states that the taking of a limb from a living creature and eating it is unlawful. (Eyver Min Ha'Chai) Also from the learnings that Esau used to enjoy hunting not only for food but just for the kill making him a Rasha or evil man.

 

[Cosmoline]

But the prohibition against taking the limb of a living creature, which is one of the Noahide laws, does not as I understand it prohibit hunting. It prohibits the pagan practice of butchering still-living animals. Put another way, there is no prohibition I know of prohibiting non-Jews from hunting. Hunting for entertainment purposes is clearly forbidden, but other than the dietary issues what is there that prohibits hunting for food or commerce? Thus, if a Noahide hunts for food and the full dietary laws do not apply to him, since he is not a Jew, is he doing something forbidden? Or, put another way, if a Jew shoots a fur bearing animal to make a coat for trade, is he violating the law?

 

[SniperStraz]

The extent of my knowledge pretty much ends here. As far as I know it is forbidden for Jews to hunt for any reason other than to save their own lives or the lives of those around them. If you are truely interested I would be happy to speak with my rabbi about it and get better sources to better answer your questions.

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm probably straying too far from firearms. I've discussed this with several Jews and it's an interesting topic. It seems to be difficult to divorce cultural traditions from religious edicts when it comes to hunting. It's the same in some ways for the Sikhs.

 

[vito]

Pretty much every angle of this has been covered, but I thought of adding one item. The commandmant usually expressed as "thou shalt not kill" is really a mis-translation of the original Aramaic. A clearer translation is "thou shalt not murder". Killing in self defense is not murder and thus not a violation of the commandmant.

That said, I must admit that in my entire extended family of Jewish relatives, to my knowledge I am the only one who owns and uses firearms. I am looked at as the oddity of the family, that they assume is a result of my having served over 20 years in the military. Of course, virtually all of this extended family lives in highly urbanized areas, where gun control is the accepted politically correct position.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Why do Jews seem to be, generally speaking, antigun? Probably has something to do with the fact that Jews are usually not people who work close to the land, where guns seem quite natural tools. For various historical reasons, Jews are not usually farmers or ranchers of any sort, and have few if any ancestors who were, so the gun culture is just not in them. Their experience of guns is from those they observed possessed by either cops or robbers. If they are not a cop, they don't feel they need, or should have, a gun. Therefore, if YOU are not a cop, YOU don't need one either, and shouldn't have one. I think it's pretty close to being that simple.

You get some odd contradictions, though. Growing up, my parents, who are not Jewish, had a couple of best friends who were, i.e., another couple they hung out with a lot, and vacationed with a lot, and the husband did all our braces when we were kids, and my father was their doctor. Well, they were about as far to the left as you get in voting patterns, and my folks would occasionally discuss it with them, and sometimes they'd be persuaded to the conservative position, but it never seemed to effect their voting patterns. Marvin once confessed that they all get their voting instructions at Temple meetings, and it's always to vote for the most leftist candidate, i.e., the Democrat. It's phrased to them as a moral imperative, so they feel guilty not doing it, even if they don't necessarily agree.

Well, anyway. Even though this guy and his wife always voted for the most leftist candidate, he had a huge collection of unregistered classic handguns (both revolvers and autos) hidden in the walls of his house. He was very definitely in favor of banning all civilian owned handguns, mind you, but he wanted to keep his, and this is in New York State, where the law looks at unregistered handguns in exactly the same way as bags of cocaine. Anyway, one day, when I was an adult and a known expert in all things firearms (at least to non-firearm people), he brought his whole collection to me to evaluate their value on the market. I told him that because they are not registered, in New York State they were only worth what he could get for them selling to crooks on the street, which is not much. He decided to put them all back in his walls and forget about selling them. But isn't that a weird contradiction?

 

[Keith Wheeler]

Damn so i'm violating torah by hunting?

Well, there's always Reform...

On Israel:

Yes, it is very hard to own a gun in Israel. Carrying one is a different matter. I'm not sure how things are now, but there was a time when those who lived in "at risk" areas could be issued a state-owned weapon for defense. And if you are one of those folks who does get approval to have your own, you can open carry most anywhere.

On <insert religion here> being against firearms:

I bet if you go look at the official platforms of most major religions, they will come out in favor of gun control. Well, except for the Mormons I'd guess.

Something folks need to understand: most American Jews are "Reform" (please no Jewish in-fighting here). The official viewpoint of the URJ is a combination of the commandment to "be a light to the nations" and classical progressive American socially liberal "do good". Some excellent ideas, IMHO -- feed the hungry, freedom for all -- mixed in with some insane feel good non-sense "ban guns to make the world a safer place" sort of thing. Reform is primarily an American and European phenomena, it's different in Israel. Most Israelis view firearms as mere tools, something to be used when needed. A friend of mine was relating a story of having worked on a kibbutz, and that none of the Israeli born folks had any interest in taking care of the weapons locker -- it was just a dirty chore.

Most Conservative and Orthodox Jews don't have the issues with firearms ownership that Reform (officially) do; however the Ultra-Orthodox are often disconnected from such discussions. If it ain't Torah, it don't matter to them.

Something I've noticed in Reform congregations: 1) Many of the older men own firearms, and 2) a lot of the younger people are interested in learning to shoot. Of course a lot of the younger people are interested in learning Hebrew and other traditional things that Reform pushed aside in the early years of its existence. The majority of our young people visit Israel; they come back full of repsect and admiration for the M4 carrying IDF men and women. The older gents, particularly here in the south, grew up shooting. There's a group of fellows here who go to the range every now and then and call themselves "Guns 'n' Moses".

It seems to be difficult to divorce cultural traditions from religious edicts when it comes to hunting.

Yep, it's the connection of cultural norms and religious teachings, and with Judaism you've got centuries of tradition and interpretation. The problem is that kashrut (the collection of kosher law/tradition) requires animals to be slaughtered in a certain way, and these traditions are based on the desire to slaughter as humanely as possible, and to remove all blood. Forget the ritual and technique involved; when hunting you can't guarantee a "humane" kill. Of course again you have a wide range of practice when dealing with Judaism, from those who don't care about being kosher, to people who say "it's a kosher animal, it's ok shechita or not", to those who will not touch meat unless a shochet, under the supervision of a rabbi, handled the slaughter. (Note: I'm not saying hunting is wrong or inhumane, just explaining the traditional Jewish viewpoint on hunting.)

Edited to add:

How is it observant Jews make a living in the fur trade, then? Does survival include economic survival? Maybe you can specify what prohibition it violates.

An issue that has caused both internal and external tensions with regards to Judaism over the centuries. If someone else does the killing, is it ok for me to trade in such items? Torah/Talmud says I shouldn't hunt, but it doesn't say I can't buy and sell materials resulting from Goyim who do. Some would claim hypocritical; others would use this as an example of how Jews realize that the law applies to them only, and not others. It gets complicated, and downright silly sometimes. There's a story of a Jewish gangster who refused to kill somebody on Saturday because it was wrong for him to "work on Shabbat".

 

[svtruth]

Excellent thread

but we still don't understand the basic question, "why would any group, collectively or individually, with a history of violent persecution forego personal means of defense?"

 

[Master Blaster]

Most Gun control advocates in Congress and the Senate are Christians.

There are at least 10 times as many non Jews who push gun control as there are Jews in total.

Kindly dont tar my religion with gun control, of the Jews I know most own Guns.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

of the Jews I know most own Guns.

Come to think of it, that's my experience too, but all the Jews I know (one of whom is an ex Marine, an Ex cop, and currently an FBI Special Agent) also vote for candidates who would outlaw civilian ownership of firearms. There seems to be a disconnect there.