Jews against guns

Status
Not open for further replies.
AirForceShooter...

I'd just like you to know that your story brought a tear to my eyes.

I'd go so far as to say that no salute you've ever rendered, nor ever will render, was more deserved.

Resistance is not futile... even when it fails.

--Shannon
 
To bad there are no million gun owner marches. If there was a demonstration of that size maybe the average person would realize that there really are millions of law abiding gun owners.

Unfortunately we all have real jobs and have to be at those real jobs otherwise the economy would grind to halt or at least suffer a serious blow for that day.



Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing for the powers that be (and want to be) to see once.
 
We have a resident Million Mommer who's Jewish, drives a Prius and is running for a local office here. She happened to park in the street one house over a few days ago to knock on doors. I saw her, wished her well and started asking her about her car since I'm selling mine and I drive a lot. We were having a really nice conversation and I said that it would be really cool driving a Prius with my NRA stickers all over it. She immediately said that she'll drive hers into mine if she sees it. We both laughed and I wished her well again.
The point is that, and I'm Jewish myself (not that it matters), don't assault the liberal point of view of many American Jews. Just assault their position on guns. Keep that issue seperate. You can be as liberal as you wish, but do not mess with my most important rights. More than half will understand that especially if you're respectful of their views on other things.
 
I think its a matter of the Urban nature of the majority of Jews. New Jersey and New York, Baltimore, Atlanta, have the largest Jewish populations, big city dwellers tend to be Democrats and anti Firearm.

Of couse I could blame it on the Catholics as well.

Nancy Pelosi catholic,
Teddy Kennedy catholic,
Joe Biden, catholic,
Carolyn McCarthey catholic,
John Kerry catholic,
Barak Obama catholic,
Rudy Gulliani catholic,

Need I go on??
 
I think that's about the closest you're going to come to that issue. The largest numbers of Jews are found living in urban areas. Urban areas are the last bastions of gun control, and gun control is tied up with other issues that a lot of Jews care about.
Ergo, a lot of Jews favor gun control whether you and I think it's in their best interest or not.

You and I may not see it this way, but I think the average Jew would tell you that nobody is trying to disarm Jews specifically. If they thought their government was trying to single them out and disarm them (but not necessarily everyone else) then we'd see a lot more Oleg Volks. As it is, I think most figure it would be fine to be disarmed as long as everyone else is disarmed too--which is basically the default anti-gun position in America anyway.
 
I quite reading the "educated" posts after about the fith one. I just want to say that I will never understand how any member of any group that has been persecuted such as the Jews or endured what Blacks (aka Negroes) have endured here or anywhere else would EVER submit to disarmament. People don't change, some hold grudges for things done centuries ago (look at the middle east today!).

I do not subscribe to the idea that political ideas are held by all in any given "ethnic" group. E.g. not all Jews are for "gun"-control and not all Blacks are for reparations.
 
Last edited:
There is the perception of jewish anti-gun politicians in leadership roles. chuckie and dianne.

There is the urban jew without a clew.

There is the antigun jewish newspaper editor.

There is the vocal jewish activist.

Maybe the mind has a tendency to selectively remember these things.

Now, who is the plaintiff's attorney spearheading Parker vs. D.C.?

Who was one of the judges in the D.C. District Court that wrote the surprisingly well-written and thought-out opinion in Parker vs. D.C.?

:neener: :evil:
 
There are Jews against guns. There are Jews for guns.
There are Jews against guns for hunting but for guns for self defense.
Perhaps there are even Jews who can rationalise humane hunting
as being kosher if the kill is clean without terrorizing the animal
(which is my goy reading of kosher dietary law).

There are Christians against guns. There are Christians for guns.
There are Christians for guns for hunting but against guns for self defense.
And I could go on.

Every religious/ethnic group (and secular humanist multiculturist is an
religious/ethnic group too) has individuals who have taken every possible
position pro and anti gun.

Generalizations about religious/ethnic groups only go so far, then
they go wrong.
 
I was debating a fellow Jew about gun control and they sent me this

Gun Control: A Jewish Look
by Rabbi Chaim Steinmetz *
On March 24th, in Jonesboro, Arkansas, two junior high school students armed with rifles murdered four of their schoolmates and one of their teachers. These horrible murders reignited the ongoing international debate about gun control. In Canada, the Canadian parliament has passed several major pieces of legislation requiring gun control. In 1995, it passed Bill C-68 requiring all guns and rifles to be included in a national gun registry. This followed previous laws which prohibited machine guns, and required the training and screening of all owners of firearms. To opponents of gun control laws, these laws are a nuisance for law abiding gun owners, and have little effect on violent crime. Proponents of these laws point to extensive academic research that these laws save lives and increase safety. What does Jewish law (halacha) have to say about this issue?

In Judaism, safety is a religious concern. The Bible requires that a roof be properly gated, in order to prevent people from falling off of it (Deuteronomy 22:8). This commandment is understood by the Talmud as a general directive to remove any safety hazard (Bava Kamma 15b; Shulchan Aruch CM 427:8). Contemporary rabbinic authorities include in this commandment an employer's responsibility to ensure occupational safety (Piskei Uziel 47) and an injunction against reckless driving (Minchat Yitzchak 8:148). Someone who refuses to remove a safety hazard can be punished by excommunication (YD 334:7). In general, safety regulations are treated with far greater stringency than any other section of halacha (YD 116:7). Clearly, any Jewish view of gun control would place high value on safety.

In the Talmud there are specific regulations that resemble gun control. There is a law against owning a dangerous dog (Bava Kamma 79a). One who owns a dangerous dog must keep it tied in metal chains at all times (CM 409:3). Even if the dog is defanged or trained not to harm people, it must be chained because it may frighten strangers, and as a result may cause stress related injuries such as miscarriage and heart attacks (Shabbat 63b). One of the more pious Rabbis, Rabbi Pinchas Ben Yair, was so stringent about this law that he refused to own mules, because they can occasionally cause injury (Hullin 7b; Terumat Hadeshen 2:105). However, there were instances where allowances were made. In border communities, where there is a threat of marauders, owners of dangerous dogs may unchain them at night for protection. Some say that any dangerous city is similar to a border community (CM 409:3).These sources demonstrate that halacha would require any gun to be carefully locked at all times, with allowances made in cases where the gun is actively being used for security. Those who are more stringent would avoid guns completely. (It should also be noted that many authorities prohibit hunting for sport; Rama OH 316:2, Darchei Teshuva YD 117:44)

There is a second halacha that is relevant to this issue. The Talmud prohibits someone from selling offensive weapons to idol worshippers and suspected criminals (Avodah Zarah 15b; YD 151:5-6). The rule against selling to idol worshippers is based on an assumption that the idol worshippers will use them against Jews; however, if the Jews are allied with the idol worshippers, it is permitted to sell them arms. It is likewise prohibited to sell such weapons to anyone suspected of reselling them to criminals. This halacha requires that the buyers of firearms be carefully screened, and resembles in many ways laws requiring a national registry of gun and rifle owners.

Although halacha is extremely concerned about safety, it does not prohibit the ownership of guns. However, recognizing that a gun is a dangerous object, halacha (like many current gun control laws) requires that owners and vendors of guns take all possible precautions to prevent their guns from causing any harm.

Reprinted with permission of Rabbi Chaim Steinmetz

Footnotes
*) Rabbi Chaim Steinmetz is the spiritual leader of Tifereth Beth David Jerusalem in Montreal, Quebec. He writes a column on Jewish Law for the Canadian Jewish News, and writes a column and hosts an internet Jewish study group for the Microsoft Network. He is a member of the executive board of the Rabbinical Council of America, the Vice President of the Montreal Board of Jewish Ministers, and a member of the board of directors of the Jewish Educational Council of Montreal and Hillel-Jewish Students Center of Montreal. He recieved his ordination from Yeshiva University, where he was a fellow of the Gruss Kollel Elyon. He has a M.A. in Jewish Philosophy from the Bernard Revel Graduate School, and a M.A. in Education from Adelphi University.


I sent them the link how religious scripture demands you keep your sword by your side and "if someone comes to kill you, kill them first". *Sigh*
 
It's about a cult of victimhood. Many leaders in our communitys cannot survive without a platform of victims. When ethnic leaders cries out against anything which could protect his people from past atrocities, it's only to secure his place. Why else would Jewish, Black, Gay, Women, etc. protest against guns. Nowadays it seems almost chic to be a victim. Its good to remember your peoples past, but don't wear it on your sleave everyday as a symbol of why you cannot suceed. Community leaders should instead encourage their people to empower themselves and no longer be victims.

Many people cite religous reasons to hate/ban guns. They also tend to twist scripture to reenforce that. The biggest twist is the changing of one word in the ten commandments. From "Thou shall not murder." to "Thou shall not kill." There is a big difference between murder and kill.
 
What is true for Judaism(s) is true for other religions, also

The Lutheran church sued the State of Minnesota when our first 'shall issue' law was passed about 5 years ago. Russia should have imported MN Lutherans back in the 1980's because if they had done this, the Soviet would have never fallen - these MN Lutherans are true believers when it comes to Karl Marx.

To answer your question - don't ask why Judaism(s) seem to favor a state monopoly on force; but rather ask why all religions favor this.

I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said something along the lines that in every age and every place, the clergy will always side with the tryant. Here they oppose Bush but that's only so they can install somebody like Chavez. If you belong to an 'old world' denomination you know what I mean - you are continually bombarded with 'socially conscious' messages from the pulpit, all of which depend upon creating a government 'strong enough to make people do the right thing'.
 
As a religious Jew (Orthodox) and a gun owner and FFL holder, let me see if I can help explain why some of my brethren are the way they are.

When secular Judaism started to take hold, many looked to other belief systems to replace the sense of community they lost when they stopped going to synagogue. To this end, many became socialists, communists and Liberals.

When they joined these groups they started to treat everything from their new organization as the unvarnished truth, without questioning it....

As time went on, and secularism continued to grow, most people assumed that Judaism equaled liberalism, even though there are no real connection between them.

Now that the demographics are turning, and the secular Jews are slowly breeding themselves out of existence (less than zero population growth and high rates of intermarriage), and orthodox Jews are gaining in population (no intermarriage and 6-8 kids on average, with less than 2% becoming secular), we will see the trend shortly reverse itself.

Oh, and while Feinstein considers herself Jewish, her mother was not.... although she herself married a Jew, and Barbara Boxer married a non-Jew, but was born Jewish...

I am a member of the JPFO... as is my wife and both of our immediate families....
 
I was raised in an Orthodox Jewish community. In my experience in that community, more people were politically conservative than liberal, for reasons of morality, but quite a few were liberals.

Gun control was mostly a non-issue. It was just not a gun culture. Hunting is, as posters noted early in the thread, against Jewish law and not really terribly respected in Jewish culture.

The quote Pilman posted does demonstrate how Jewish legal thought tends to operate--by applying older situations to new ones. I think we can all spot the breakdown in that logic as applied to guns--a dog can attack without human agency. A gun can't.

I remember my parents were a little torn on a AWB when it first rolled around. They thought it was probably not a great idea for all the usual reasons--2nd am., easy to get around, demonizing particular models instead of actual criminals--but they also couldn't comprehend why anyone would want the guns they saw pictured in the NYT.

Definitely the hoocaust plays into this a little. Ime, Jews tend to get nervous when the gov't starts randomly choosing constitutional provisions to ignore.

But they were very supportive of non-Jews going deer-hunting. They rcognizd the need for herd management, and saw that as a proper function of non-Jews. But, most kinds of straight recreation lik shooting and gun hobbies are frowned upong in the most Orthodox communities. But everyone was cool with Israeli settlers carrying, or young Hassidim in Brooklyn carrying to protect the community.

My brother's Orthodox father-in-law is teaching rudimentary shotgunning to his teenage son because he thinks he needs an outlet of some kind, and shooting is a fairly harmless one.

I guess what I'm getting at is that while among the Orthodox there isn't strong support for rtkba, there isn't strong opportion either, and there is a recognition that there are appropriate situations where guns ar desirable, but that this is not a major part of the culture.

Last time I stopped by my parents house, I happened to have my Benelli in the trunk of my car. My brother and sister-in-law wanted to see it, and were fairly impressed by it. My parents were also interested. It was not a "guns are evil, how dare you" situation at all, more a "hm, kinda' neat, don't know much about it, but I'm fascinated, even though I would *nver* distract from my mission by becoming a serious hobbyist." I think my guns shock them far less than almost anything else about my life. :eek:
 
Why are Catholics so Against Guns???

Leading Gun baners in congress:

Nancy Pelosi CATHOLIC
Teddy Kennedy Catholic
Joe Biden Catholic
John Kerry Catholic
Carolyn McCarthy Catholic

There are many more

In fact there are more Catholics that hate Guns than there are Jews in the entire world.

I sure its really Catholics that Hate guns not Jews.
 
Last edited:
I don't think attacking Catholicism is a good way to approach this thread. Lots of people on it have discussed the perception of anti-gun Jewry and given intelligent, well thought out responses.

Please don't attack my Church, my Pope, or my faith in making your point. No one is attacking yours, and I don't find anti-Catholic rhetoric any more acceptable than anti-Jewish rhetoric.
 
Originally posted by Prince Yamamoto: There's 100 Million some Muslim radicals who want to wipe Americans off the face of the earth, if they get over here, I can guarantee you will be the first ones lined up against the wall and shot. Still feel safe without a gun?
Funny... I say something similar.

I usually say that there are about 100 million Christians right here in this country who are hoping that the next 9/11 or first atomic weapon will bring back their god Jesus and give them an excuse to kill Muslims, Jews, Gays, aethists, etc.
 
From the Holy SEE

The Holy See notes another recent gain in the new momentum given to the small arms issue. Small arms cause the violent death, injury and psychological trauma of hundreds of thousands of people each year. These simple and comparably inexpensive weapons of death find their way into areas of conflict and instability and, shockingly, even into the hands of children, who are locked into a culture of violence. Casualties often occur in the context of religious, ethnic, political and national conflicts. These conflicts are the cause of millions of refugees and internally displaced persons. The weaponization of society fuels cycles of violence, despair and ultimately state collapse. Thus, the establishment of the U.N. Group of Governmental Experts on Small Arms, alongside the work of the Vienna Commission on Crime Prevention and Criminal Justice, are a positive step forward.

At the recent meeting, which took place in Oslo, government officials agreed that governments have primary responsibility to reduce the flow and accumulation of small arms. A study of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace noted the anomaly by which certain States have stringent controls on the international transfer of heavy arms, but few if any regarding the sale of small arms and hand guns. The supplying of small arms must be regulated at its source, at the same time as efforts are being made to lessen the demand and to choke off access to illicit supplies.
Straight from the Pope's mouth:

http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/3798.php?index=3798&po_date=22.10.1998 &lang=ge
 
It does seem to boggle the mind.
As a "group", people of Jewish faith have endured an awful lot of persecution throughout history.

Then again, a little over 200 years ago we started our own country and a lot of privately owned weapons were used to get rid of our colonizers.

And about 50 years ago, Great Britian had to basically beg us for every gun we could possibly send them in case the Germans decided to cross the channel.

I guess people in general just seem to forget way too easily.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top