Judaism, Nazis and Gun Control

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Armed Females of America

Judaism, Nazis and Gun Control

By Nicki Fellenzer

I’ve been meaning to write on this topic for a while now, but something else always seems to fall into my lap. But because I got yet another email from yet another ignorant, sub-fascist slime bag asserting that Jews fall into two categories: “Zionists or Marxists†and that the cuddly Nazis were woefully misunderstood and didn’t really support gun control, I figured it was time to address the subject of the Jewish faith and firearms.

First, let me say this: ANYONE WHO WANTS TO DISARM YOU IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHETHER THEY USE DOCTORED STATISTICS, COMMUNIST RHETORIC OR RELIGIOUS DOGMA TO MAKE YOU VULNERABLE TO ARMED THUGS OR GOVERNMENT TYRANTS. THE TOOL DOESN’T MATTER. THE CRIME DOES. The crime is civilian disarmament, and the nature of said crime does not change with the tools used to perpetuate it, whether they be perversion of Judaic law or the socialist “common good†mantra.

Is that clear enough for you Jew-phobes out there?

Good.

Now, let me get the following out in the open. I was born Jewish. It is my heritage, and I have the utmost respect for it. I do not follow the Jewish faith. My spiritual path has taken me in another direction. However…

…when I read ignorant rants about how Nazis didn’t support gun control – that it’s some kind of Jew-perpetuated propaganda to make Nazis seem like bad guys – I literally want to take a large piece of wood and use the head that spewed such nonsense for batting practice.

According to Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO) research:


"Until 1943-44, the German government published its laws and regulations in the 'Reichsgesetzblatt,' roughly the equivalent of the U.S. Federal Register. Carefully shelved by law librarians, the 1938 issues of this German government publication had gathered a lot of dust. In the 'Reichsgesetzblatt' issue for the week of March 21, 1938, was the official text of the Weapons Law (March 18, 1938). It gave Hitler's Nazi party a stranglehold on the Germans, many of whom did not support the Nazis. We found that the Nazis did not invent "gun control" in Germany. The Nazis inherited gun control and then perfected it: they invented handgun control."
The Nazi Weapons Act of 1938 among other things:

1. Classified guns for “sporting purposesâ€;
2. Required that all citizens who wished to purchase firearms had to register with Nazi officials and have a background check performed;
3. Exempted Nazis from gun control;
4. Gave them unrestricted power to decide what kind of firearms private citizens could or could not possess;
5. Gave the Nazis the power to decide what kinds of ammunition would be subject to bureaucratic control;
6. And set a minimum age for firearms purchase.
But heck, the Nazi love for gun control is well documented, and anyone who attempts to paint them as anything other than a band of tyrannical, sadistic monsters needs a good wire brush cleaning between the ears. I’m not here to talk about the Nazis.

I’m here to talk about Jews.

The communications I receive from neo-fascist dregs is nothing short of absurd in their attempts to paint Jews as the root of all evil in this nation. So let’s get a few things straight:

Do many Jews support gun control? Yes, many do. For a reason why they do, when their disarmed brethren perished in Nazi death camps, I turned to a friend of mine – Jack Feldman, professor of psychology at George Institute of Technology, supporter of freedom, libertarian, firearms enthusiast and Jew. “Jews are called on to care for others who are troubled, suffering, etc. and to stand up for the oppressed,†Jack told me. “It’s a mitzvah. Democrats and socialists (traditional proponents of gun control) have taken that role, in appearance if not reality. …A lot of us have yet to get the message about the Left, and [continue to] cling to these fallacies.â€

Do some Jewish organizations and rabbis equate Judaism with gun control? Yes, they do, and they’re wrong. For instance, Rabbi Chaim Steinmetz claims:

In the Talmud there are specific regulations that resemble gun control. There is a law against owning a dangerous dog (Bava Kamma 79a). One who owns a dangerous dog must keep it tied in metal chains at all times (CM 409:3). Even if the dog is defanged or trained not to harm people, it must be chained because it may frighten strangers, and as a result may cause stress related injuries such as miscarriage and heart attacks (Shabbat 63b). …These sources demonstrate that halacha would require any gun to be carefully locked at all times, with allowances made in cases where the gun is actively being used for security. Those who are more stringent would avoid guns completely. …
The comparison is patently disingenuous, as well as foolish. A dog is a live creature, capable of acting on its own volition. A gun is an inanimate object that cannot frighten strangers, bark at them or take any action at all unless handled by a live being. A firearm is incapable of independent action. And therefore, keeping your firearms locked up will do nothing but restrict access to your tool of self defense.

And locking up your tools of self-defense, while rendering yourself vulnerable to armed thugs is quite contrary to Judaic law. As a matter of fact, another article JPFO article entitled, “Jews and Gun Control: Fear of Freedom or Freedom from Fear†confirms my assertion:

The Talmud repeatedly mandates self-defense against an attacker. For example, in Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin -- which deals with Legal Judgments – the Rabbis explain Exodus 22:1, which states, "If a burglar is caught in the act of breaking in, and is struck and killed, it is not considered an act of murder." …
On this text, the Rabbis base a general proposition: "If someone comes to kill you, arise quickly and kill him." …

Individual cases differ, and specific regulations are set, explaining when killing another is justified, but the basic message remains the same: you have a duty to defend your life against those who seek to endanger it.

I recently spoke with Rabbi Isaac Leizerowski, who, upon having conferred with his colleagues, agreed that the right to self defense is MANDATED (his emphasis, not mine) by Jewish law. The directive to defend your life is written in the Talmud, the 70-volume Code of Jewish Law, in at least three places. And while individual cases of firearms use are subject to law, and Jews are absolutely prohibited from committing murder (willfully taking an innocent life), Rabbi Leizerowski agrees that the gun is the most effective tool of self defense on the market today, and that the right to keep and bear (own and carry) firearms should not be controlled by governments.

Judaic law, much like Christian writings acknowledges and asserts that life is sacred. Ergo that sacred life must be protected. The most effective way that can be done in today’s society is by use of firearms in self-defense. Jews acknowledge this and understand this, as do many others.

The desire to disarm you isn’t endemic to Judaism. It isn’t endemic to Democrats. There are Christians, Republicans, Buddhists and socialists who cling to gun control and disarmament as a means to either subjugate you or vainly try to protect you from yourself. It is prevalent in those who seek power over you, those who want to guarantee your physical weakness, because they’re too inadequate to convince you of their righteousness and those misguided enough to believe that laws and governments are more capable of protecting you than you are.
 
thanks for the great thread!

I'm saving it in my favorites because I am allways looking for more ammo to use against the libs here in SF.
Thanks again.
 
Keller, without naming any specific religion, I might point out that many of the people who support gun control are not practitioners of religion in the traditional sense. Rather they are new age agnostics who assume religious trappings but hold only to the form of their grandparents' faith without its function.

Calling one specific name I will mention the "Baptist" Bill Clinton.
 
This has been something that has puzzled me for years. The Jews have been persecuted as much or more than any group in history and, at least here in America are probably the most statist group I can think of. I can't understand why it is so hard for them to realise that govt persecution in all it's forms is one of the biggest threats that they face. It's not like it's never happened before.

I'm still not sure I understand why most Jews are so in favor of gun control if the Talmud is so specific on self-defense. I would appreciate it if this point could be explained in more detail by someone who understands it.

I've wondered if part of the reason was the Jewish leadership buying into the whole professional victim thing? I'm not sure if there's any truth to it even if I thought it up.
 
Memories, light the corners of my mind. Misty water color memories, of the way we were. Scattered pictures, of the smiles we left behind. Smiles we gave to one another for the way we were.
Can it be that it was all so simple then? Or has time written every line? If we had the chance to do it all again, tell me, Would we? Could we?
 
I'm Jewish, and I could never understand how so many of my co-religionists are so liberal. After many years of observation, thinking about this and discussing it with like-minded Jews, I've come to the conclusion that most liberal Jews are secular humanists who are partly or wholely ignorant of history. Either they are not religious at all, or they're very weakly religious. Of course, this is a generalization and not always true. However, these people (and non-Jewish liberals and anti-gun types) tend to be quite self-absorbed, giving little (or no) importance to either the past or traditions (and, thus, knowing less about history because it simply doesn't interest them). This results in a tremendous inability to put things into perspective - they focus on the here and now, the latest study, etc. They miss out on the timeless wisdom of past ages, wisdom earned at high cost by our literal or figurative ancestors, and on the lessons of history.

With regard to Jews as such, my opinion is that there is a remnant of the old religious teachings that is passed down through the generations, even if it isn't recognized as such. Such basic teachings as giving charity to the poor and/or helpless, not doing harm to others, etc. have been handed down, but they are twisted by a lack of knowledge about the underlying religious law into a liberal, wishy-washy morality that fits in well with Socialism and its associated ideologies. A perfect example of this is the 6th Commandment. Those uneducated in Jewish law (including most secular Jews) think that it says, "Thou shalt not kill." In fact, it says, "Thou shalt not murder." Any simpleton can understand the difference between a justifiable killing and murder, and the laws of every jurisdiction in the US (and most, if not all, countries) treat such acts very differently. Further, many Jews don't understand (or even know/believe) that the most precious gift that you have from G-d is your very life - and that you are not only permitted to defend it, but you're obligated to do so. This is the type of ignorance that we are dealing with - and people suffering from this type of ignorance who are of a basically good moral character tend to fall back into the blissninnie school of moral reasoning and belief - which naturally makes them anti-gun, because they think that guns are only made for killing which (in their belief) is always BAD. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, I don't subscribe to this viewpoint. While I am far from being very religious, I know enough about my heritage to know that Jewish law stands in opposition to Evil, and I know enough about history to understand that Evil wins if it is not opposed. Sometimes that opposition requires actual physical resistance, and sometimes that resistance is most effective if it is backed up by various weapons including guns. I've seen too many films, read too many books and heard from too many people about the effects of gun control on all peoples (including Jews) to ever permit myself to be disarmed. I've yet to see a film in which the people being unloaded from cattle cars at Auschwitz are carrying guns, or in which the ashes of those cremated at the death factories contain guns or knives. Simple lesson: only disarmed people can be led to the slaughter like sheep. My wife's uncle survived 4 of Herr Hitler's concentration camps (unlike his entire family) including Birkenau (attached to Auschwitz), and he has LOTS of guns. Given that his knowledge was gained at such horrific cost, I'd be a fool to do otherwise.

I think that the author of the lead article in this thread would be pleasantly surprised at how many Jews think like I do. Anyone interested in finding out the facts should speak to Jews who live away from the larger coastal cities and Chicago - down South, at least, many Jews are armed (even my rabbi).
 
I am also Jewish, my great grandfather and grandfather (father's family) were Rabbis before it was strictly a paid profession like it is now.

I am the first real firearm enthusiast in my family, my father, in his younger days was a sport hunter, but my mother who was against hunting and firearms (her father was a kosher butcher and animals are not to be killed for sport or in a cruel manner), nonetheless my father encouraged my interest in shooting sports.

I personnaly believe that it is every Jew's duty to protect their own lives and those of their friends and loved ones, partly becuase of Talmudic law, but mainly because I am a student of history and recent Jewish history.
Every Jew should own and be proficient with firearms. That is what the phrase "Never Again" means to me.

The reason that firearm ownership is not as high in the Jewish community as it should be, is both a historic and geographic reason. Jews in my family were from Northern Russia, Lithuania, and Hungary. All of those countries had laws against Jews owning firearms, in some cases punnishable by death.

Jews in my family associate gun ownership with the government, the army, and repression under which they and their parents and grand parents lived.

They fled Europe around the time of the WWI and before. They came to America and settled in Urban areas where they could have the support of other Urban Jews who came before them. The result is that there is no ownership of guns as a tradition in the family. The only reason my father was interested in hunting was because his family moved out to the country and he became friends with non-jewish neighbors who hunted and he liked it.

I am working hard to change that tradition.
 
Not a jew, but knowing the debt my religion owes to Judaism I studied it.

I think, based on my knowledge, that Sam Adams has put his finger on it as well as anybody yet:
a remnant of the old religious teachings that is passed down through the generations, even if it isn't recognized as such. Such basic teachings as giving charity to the poor and/or helpless, not doing harm to others, etc. have been handed down, but they are twisted by a lack of knowledge about the underlying religious law into a liberal, wishy-washy morality that fits in well with Socialism and its associated ideologies.
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IOW, once vital belief has hardened into mere TRADITION without the underlying knowledge.

Is it any wonder that the book of proverbs (IIRC) states "without knowledge a people perish?" A perfect example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. :uhoh:
 
Many jews may be antigun as they come from a tradition where guns are owned primarily by police or criminals. They don't have a tradition of personal ownership. Thus, having a gun is seen as worthy by the police in good countries, bad in fascist countries and certainly bad by criminals.
The gun, then, has nothing to recommend it for the individual.

Next, unfortunately, a fringe of the gun community in the USA is racist and antisemitic. If this scum has guns, then this is an item we certainly don't need. As owning guns is seen a marker of fascism racists, it makes sense that they be banned.

One can argue that a rational analysis suggests gun ownership is actually good for freedom and defense against bigots. However, the surface appearance of the gun culture bad aspects does not appeal to many Jews, given their recent cultural experiences.
 
Sam Adams has the right of it I believe. As most people here know, I'm Jewish and find myself perplexed with most of my Hebrew brethren. My Synagogue has signs posted on every door banning concealed carry, yet for every High Holy Day, they hire the Raleigh PD to come and guard their doors.:confused: My wife's law partner is the President of the Synagogue and is an avid anti. He almost coronaried when he found out my wife packs at the office, but he's also made no effort to ban it at the workplace.

I am a rather militant Jew who takes very seriously those two words, "Never Again".
 
Almost makes me want to become a Christian. I live in the most concentrated Jewish community in the nation, maybe the world. The North Carolina Jewish population is probably like a rodeo compared to what I deal with. Blast away. I probably deserve it.
On a side (positive) note, my wife was out with several of her friends the other day all of whom are Jewish and were intensely supporting President Bush. I was very, very surprised to hear that.
Maybe it's me.
 
JEwish defence

Two words- Warsaw Ghetto- they were going to die so they fought back and made the attackers pay heavily. correct attitude dont you think?
 
The example of the Warsaw Ghetto has always puzzled me. I would think that all adult Jews would know the story of the defense and fall and would understand that quietly going along with your killers like the leaders did would be worse than useless. Isn't this history lesson taught at all in the Jewish community?

I understand the problem of growing up in a community without any role models to teach the practical application but I still have a problem with passively accepting death and oppression.
 
I, too, think that Sam Adams nailed it.

I am a Jew who was secular/leftist for the first half of my life. When both Robert Kennedy and ML King were murdered in '68, that somehow prompted feelings that I should own a gun.

During a shopping trip to Fedco Dept Stores (sort of an early Sam's Club) in Los Angeles I added a Ruger 10/22 to my cart (only $68 new, then, IIRC) and headed across the huge, barnlike store toward the line of cash registers.

Never made it. Half-way there I felt a deep guilt in my gut, turned back and returned the rifle to it's rack. Just couldn't do it!

It wasn't until the middle 80's that I had moved far enough out of my early programming to actually buy my first gun (a Marlin 1894c 357 mag at a police auction -- wish I still had it!). Never looked back since.

As has been said above: of what use us chanting, "never again" if I don't take personal responsibility for protection of my self and loved ones? And when the chips are down, how else to protect freedom and liberty if not with guns?


Although "very Jewish" culturally, psychologically, ethnically, I was really quite ignorant of my religious heritage. This changed when my daughter was born and I felt my ignorance crippling me in passing her heritage on to her.

I am not Orthodox, nor even really a believer. But I HAVE learned what Judaism has given to the world and why we Jews have survived two millenia without a country and in the face of almost universal hatred.

And I have learned what has made the Jews such an unusual people who rise like cream in any society that removes its boot from our necks, even temporarily.

That reason is our clinging stubbornly to Torah and belief in G-d. The values absorbed from Torah have made us what we are. Those who understand Judaism say that it isn't a religion at all -- it's a way of life.


As a secularist for so long, don't think this was easy to accept. I would tell people that I had to eat my hat. Two hats, really. First I had to stop pxssing on tradition and admit that without it, civilized society is not possible. Then it got worse: which tradition? Religious tradition!


Took me years to come to terms with this. But my daughter is everything to me. When I wanted to give up, I reminded myself that I owed it to her to teach her who she is. And, without doing anything to deserve it, I had inherited great wealth in the form of my religion. There is a Chassidic saying: "...if you drop gold and books, first pick up the books"!.


Here's the kicker: I came across a study in Moment Magazine (certainly not an orthodox journal!) on Jewish continuity.

The author went back 100 years and studied 200 Jews in each of 5 groups: secular Jews, reform Jews, Conservative Jews (actually not conservative at all, but very liberal. They considered themselves conservative only by comparison to the liberties that the Reform took with the religion), Orthodox Jews and Chassidim.

He traced their descendents to the present (around 1994) to see how many of each group were still Jewish. The results shook me and confirmed me in the direction I was taking.

(Doing this from memory) of the 200 secular Jews, only 2-3 descendents were still Jewish 100 years later. Of the reform, about 4-5 remained. Of the Conservative, 10-12. But of the Orthodox 800 were still Jewish. And of the Chassidim 200 had grown to 5000!

What more is there to say?


Those who study Orthodox Judaism know that Jewish values truly revere life (L'Chaim -- to life!"), but also acknowledges the necessity for killing, war, revenge (revenge is G-d's but it is we who must implement it), etc. As mentioned above, in Hebrew, there is NO commandment: You shall not kill. What it really says is: You shall not commit murder." As different morally as day and night

Modern, liberal, "enlighted" Jews are actually abysmally ignorant of Judaism as Sam Adams so aptly pointed out. As he says, they do maintain (a few of) the traditions (watered down) without understanding the laws of G-d that underly them.

And without this understanding and the committment it engenders, they and their children and their children's children fall away from Judaism and fade into the general population. Nothing wrong with the general population -- but why give up such a glorious heritage that has sustained us (and western civilization) for nearly 4000 years? How could we drop the ball now, after so long? I chose not to do that.

There is hope, though. More and more Jews are moving to the right, politically and religiously. We are slowly awakening. Those who don't will most likely disappear.


No way I will ever give up my guns. If we lose the 2nd, though, I may find that I've misplace them.


And my daughter, now almost 16, attends, I am proud to say, an ultra-Orthodox Yeshiva for girls and gets top grades in both her secular and her religious studies. Which also gives some vindication to the 6 years of home-schooling my ex-wife and I did with her (yes, I AM boasting!).


And once in a while she goes shooting with me. May she learn well and may she teach it to her children.



matis
 
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To all who responded to my post:

Thanks for your kind words and for your thoughts. Understanding the psychosis/neurosis of anti-gun Jews is a tough task, one that no individual can successfully undertake alone - there's a lot to analyze!

I would have to particularly agree with those who raised the subject of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (the secular anniversary of which is 4/19) that this proud moment amidst the horror of the Shoah should serve as a beacon to all thinking Jews, as well as anyone from any ethnic/racial/religious group who abhors tyranny. Unfortunately, many Jews are either ignorant of it or they have pushed this "inconvenient" fact to the back of their closed minds.

I would also strongly agree that "Never Again!" is a rather meaningless statement without the means to back it up. For a nation like Israel, this means having a very effective armed forces and nuclear weapons that can be delivered to any point of value to its enemies, actual or potential. For individual Jews, it means having an effective means of self-defense and the ability to proficiently use that means and, most important of all, the WILL to use that means if necessary. Being armed to the teeth means little if you're afraid to use those arms - just ask the French in the Maginot Line what they did for most of WW2.
 
Being armed to the teeth means little if you're afraid to use those arms - just ask the French in the Maginot Line what they did for most of WW2.
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Here is part of the problem. One of the big factors in the French loss that year was the fact the Germans were strafing civilians in the Low Countries, driving them onto the roads so as to clog up French response. So they were able to make an end run around the Maginot line.

If the French had done likewise they could have won, and probably with fewer total civilian casualties than resulted by their inaction. The French weren't afraid to use the arms against the Germans, they were afraid that if they did they would hurt civilians.

Point being I think there may be a lot of people are hoplophobes because they are afraid to act assertively for fear of hurting some innocent person. Again this is a factor present in many religions both theist and non theist.
 
I thought the French lost to the Germans because in 1940 the Germans unexpectedly attack through the Ardennes forest catching the French totally by surprise. IIRC, the Ardennes attack was originally Hitler's idea.

PBS here locally had a nine segment history of the Jews. It was narrated by Abba Eban, the Israeli statesman and ambassador. The program mentions that at times, especially for Jews in Europe, there was a general fatalism. They figure that while some Jews may perish or be driven off, it would eventually stop, some Jews would survive, and things would return to normal. Actually offering resistance was not considered an option.

Something else in the program may have answered two interesting things about European Jews.

First, in the 15th century, the Polish aristocracy wanted to upgrade the output of their peasant farms and farmers. They contracted Jews for this purpose, leasing all the holdings and contents thereof to the Jews. This even included giving the Jews the power of life and death over the Polish citizens. I can image this went over like a lead ballon to the Christian Poles. Probably the seed for much anti-semitism in that part of the world.

When the Poles invaded the Ukraine, they did the same thing there. This created great hatred by the Ukrainians, especially the Cossacks, who went raiding into Poland, sacking great cities and killing many Jews and Poles.

At one time the Grand Duchy of Poland controled most of Eastern Europe.

Second, dispite the above described events, the Jews flourished in Poland, and before WWII, Poland had the largest Jewish population in the world. Ten percent of then Polands 30 million people were Jews.
 
The program mentions that at times, especially for Jews in Europe, there was a general fatalism. They figure that while some Jews may perish or be driven off, it would eventually stop, some Jews would survive, and things would return to normal. Actually offering resistance was not considered an option.
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This is almost certainly why there was little resistance to Hitler among most Jews, because of the history of Europe over the past 20 or 30 generations. Something along the lines of "let them vent for a while, they'll eventually get tired and stop, and most of us will survive." However, it doesn't explain (or excuse) passively standing around to get shot or gassed, let alone digging your own grave. The latter is something that I'll NEVER do, not unless the grave is a foxhole and I'm buried along with a lot of hot brass.
 
moa, I'd recomend watching disk 2 of Frank Capra's classic movie "Why We Fight WWII".

I thought the same thing, the cut through in the Ardennes, et cetera, until I saw the movie and found the Ardennes was just the end game move after all the other complicated setup moves had been done. Luring French troops out to the north then choking them off with a gazillion civilians on the roads was the only way he could have ever pulled this off.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...ref=sr_1_8/103-0503881-4624627?v=glance&s=dvd

This also brings to mind the fact that Hitler was a master of deceit; Bill Clinton was second rate compared to him. He duped everyone, not just the Jews.
 
I would have to particularly agree with those who raised the subject of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (the secular anniversary of which is 4/19) that this proud moment amidst the horror of the Shoah should serve as a beacon to all thinking Jews, as well as anyone from any ethnic/racial/religious group who abhors tyranny. Unfortunately, many Jews are either ignorant of it or they have pushed this "inconvenient" fact to the back of their closed minds.
Click to expand...

Highland Park, IL, a Chicago suburb with a large Jewish population, has an anti-handgun ordinance. When the city council was holding hearings on this, a survivor of the Holocaust testified that if they had had guns, especially at the beginning, the course of the Uprising as well as the Holocaust would have been different. He told about the Uprising and how long they were able to hold the Nazis at bay with the meager number of guns they had. He strongly urged the council not to pass the ordinance.
A local rabbi ridiculed this survivor's pleas. The rabbi's position was that if there had been more guns in the Warsaw Ghetto, the Nazi's would have just increased the severity of their response.
Obviously the rabbi's position can be taken to task on many levels, but the thing that bothers me the most is that the rabbi believed that his speculation about what the Nazi's would have done trumped what actually happened as related by someone who was there.
This is the same kind of distorted reasoning that leads the anti-handgun people to advise women to carry a whistle in order to prevent rape, call 911 when confronted by an imminent threat or just do what the criminal wants in order to avoid being hurt. No argument based upon facts can overcome the strongly held beliefs of those who choose to ignore reality.
 
I spoke with the local Orthodox Rabbi about an hour ago and ranted about my concerns. He said, "You're gonna love it here."
 
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