Judging Gun Rights: Are They Inalienable?

[RancidSumo]

Again, let them come, documented or not.

As long as they speak English and don't fly the Mexican flag above the American flag I am fine with it.

 

[bladecp]

Nope, sorry...BLOCK them at the border and SCREEN them. That would prevent the repeat felons from getting back into the US time and time again. We don't have the jail space/resources to prosecute them so we deport them (if at all) and they keep coming back. At least the immigrants that came through Ellis Island had to go through some sort of a process unlike these feral dogs from the south that think they can do whatever they want. Peaceful or not, illegals come here and won't learn English, won't assimilate, don't pay taxes, don't learn how to drive, no insurance (car/medical/etc), use our emergency rooms as clinics for NON-life threatening things, waste/bog down our school resources with children not willing to learn, speak English and causing our own to be held back. Yeah, the list goes on and on... Let's welcome all of those illegals.

 

[R127]

Too large a border with the current la migra/border patrol manpower available to do so currently. Manned checks at roads do not and have not worked for a long time. Los esses y cholos aren't coming over in car trunks anymore.

Yes. Our standing peacetime armies have been an unmitigated failure in defending our borders, sovereignty and constitution which is why this country has a second ammendment designed to provide the adequate manpower for the task at hand at a price we can afford.

 

[bladecp]

I agree with you, but the citizens' hands are tied. Ask the Minute Men how well it's working out for them and what they were allowed to do.

 

[R127]

I know it. A change is coming no matter what is done by us or our government. Either we can get our act together and adapt with the times so we have some input on what that change looks like or it can hit us like a ton of bricks. I'm affraid we have just missed our last chance to get back to the basics of a free and lawful society though. Obama/Hillary pretty much have the presidency tied up and after they take the Whitehouse America can never be the same again. McCain is going to fail utterly but even if he didn't his positions are not significantly different than those of the previous two. We'll be third world in a couple generations. That isn't all bad though because the federal government losing its power will allow a new, probably smaller united states to reform under constitutional principles. Maybe the lesson will be remembered? Hey, it only worked for the Swiss for the past few hundred years right?

 

[RPCVYemen]

Where did this "living document" crap originate?

Uh. In the Constitution, as confirmed by Marbury v. Madison.

The Supreme Court has the Constitutional power to interpret the Constitution darn near any way they want. Different theories of interpretation have been in vogue at different times - but note that the Constitution does not in itself limit the Court to any one method of interpretation.

The checks on this power is the right of the people to modify the Constitution with amendments if they feel that the Supreme Court has gotten it wrong, the power of the President to nominate Justices, and the power of the Congress to approve the nomination.

Mike

 

[sacp81170a]

The checks on this power is the right of the people to modify the Constitution with amendments if they feel that the Supreme Court has gotten it wrong, the power of the President to nominate Justices, and the power of the Congress to approve the nomination.

There's also Congress' power to determine the cases SCOTUS is allowed to hear:

"In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make."

So, except in certain specific instances, Congress has the power to determine the appellate jurisdiction of the Federal Courts. Interesting, eh? Congress could remove, say, the issue of abortion from the jurisdiction of the Federal Courts with a single rider to a spending bill. Puts a new perspective on things, don't it?

 

[Ithaca37]

Well I have a hard time seeing myself actually going to "war" with the government but I know that I definetly wouldn't give them any of my guns.

Funny how many people say this. Where do you draw the line? Does it take them coming to your door? Because that will most likely never happen, they aren't so stupid as to attempt that on a national scale. So that begs the question: short of coming to your door to round up your guns, where do you draw the line and say it has gone too far? This really goes for any government infringement not just the second amendment.

In fact the framers weren't concerned even about individual self-defense, but were taking care of the citizens against an oppressive government.

It should be noted that it was not the framers who fought for the 2nd amendment, it was anti-federalists like Patrick Henry who fought for not only the 2A, but the whole bill of rights because in the framers never thought it necessary to safeguard the people.

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

R127 said:

Either we can get our act together and adapt with the times so we have some input on what that change looks like or it can hit us like a ton of bricks.
---------------------------------

Actually, it will be a "Soft" ton of bricks - laid upon us one-by-one so that the effect is to smother us - not to knock us back to sensibility. By the time this "incremental change" is complete, it will have become a "fait accompli", and the point to have stopped it will have long passed.

 

[GhostlyKarliion]

ignorance = dumb on purpose

A jackass thought it up

(sorry, I had to, and no, I'm not cussing)

"The Constitution belongs to the living and not to the dead." - Thomas Jefferson

This effectively means you only get the right so far as you wish to fight for it: in the political arena, in argumentation, courts, battlefields, et cetera.

Yeah, it was some 'jackass' alright.

Funny, Thomas Jefferson said that the constitution belonged to the living and not the dead, so was he referring to the people that it belonged to (i.e. the constitution belongs to) or was he referring to weather those people were living or dead (i.e. the living and not the dead). Intresting how he never said that the constitution was open to being rewritten on the whim of any jackass who should decide they didn't like it

But in the original meaning of what was said yes, it means that the constitution was created with the knowledge that one day it may have to be fought over again. The constitution was written in much haste, it was more that a rough draft, but far from comprehensive.
The first amendment was added to define the right of free speech.
The second was added to define the right of a person to keep and use weaponry.
The third was added to define the right of homeowners to decide whether or not their house could be used for government purposes.
The fourth was added to define the right of people to own their possessions and decide when they should be examined and by whom.
Etc...

Gun Rights? Rights of Life and Liberty sure, but gun rights?

Right to self-defense, but the right to bear arms? So people had gun rights before there were guns?

If if was the framers of the Constitution wouldn't have had to include it. I support the 2nd Amendment and RKBA but it's more than foolish to think the right to own/carry a gun is a god given right.

We have the right to own guns for the same reason that we have the right to chop down a tree or eat a grape growing from a vine or carry a stick.

If I decide to carry a sword then that is my right, if I decide to carry a gun that is my right, it is my right because I have the right to make a choice about what I do and do not do. I was endowed by my creator with rights that are inalienable, among them are life and liberty, I have the right to live and I have to right to choose how I live. That includes my right to defend my life, it’s about the choice of your person to decide what you do or do not do, isn’t that what all this is about anyway, your choice?

 

[trinydex]

we have a sticker in the bathroom at work. it's on the mirror, it says you're looking at the person primarily responsible for your safety.

 

[R127]

Actually, it will be a "Soft" ton of bricks - laid upon us one-by-one so that the effect is to smother us - not to knock us back to sensibility. By the time this "incremental change" is complete, it will have become a "fait accompli", and the point to have stopped it will have long passed.

To a large degree I agree with you. For instance people in America still tend to think of themselves as "free" yet we have realitically lost most of our freedoms now and only some of them can still be exercised in the form of a tightly regulated privilege, such as travel or keeping and bearing arms.

The thing is not everything is subtle. This is not an economics board and most people do not keep tabs on this sort of thing anyway but just a head's up, the USDX has broken 73 and is heading for the 50's, maybe even the 40's longterm. The DIJA has broken 12000 in the middle of a highly inflationary period. In English that translates to "real bad." This isn't random, it is an effect of ignoring certain aspects of constitutional law and this same exact pattern has been played out by every other country that has made the same mistakes. These events will bring about a sharp, rapid change in our society. Since we are already trending toward paranoid security state and socialism you can expect those efforts to be redoubled with a bad effect on gun rights. At the same time widespread hardship will precipitate a general increase in crime. The government will also be weakened and this will mean territory lost to other concerns such as gangs looking to fill local voids in power. The second ammendment will be the strongest civilizing influence available under those circumstances but as I said I don't think it will survive the next four to eight years in recognizable form.