Just Finished Reading 'Unintended Consequences'...

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Seems like a great book. I love the idea of a marginally abused tiny sgement of society brutally terrorizing and murdering federal agents using NFA weaponry, and shooting helpless captives. I think that speaks really well of the Gun owning society. If I could critique the book at all, I say it could have used just a little more women lezzing out.
I do wonder if some folks actually read the book? Did they realize it was fiction? Did they realize the Battle Star Glactica is not real?

It seems doubtful. It has been over a yr since I reread part of it (regarding a question about it) IIRC the "marginally abused tiny segement" were directly targeted to have their homes/businesses raided. Evidence planted, Charges so severe that they would not even have their own savings to pay for defense... Basicly when they found out anything it would be AFTER they are villified in media, all assets seized, friends/family/work told terrible things about them,etc. So the chances of "Justice" is zero. Kidnapping/imprisonment,theft of everything (including your good name) is marginal????
Sad part (to me) was folks who did NOT have anything to do with criminal activity and were killed. (but its as realistic as most stories/more then most)
I am AMAZED at the absolute HATE against the author/story. I have to wonder if some stuff was added BECAUSE the editor/book company asked/told him to. "we need more sex, more stuff with that gal who got abused/escape from mafia"

Folks must not read much. I pick up books at 2nd hand shop because I would go broke. The number of stories (by author who had other books I like) that STUNK.... It happens.
 
Did they realize the Battle Star Glactica is not real?
You LIE! :)

The first half of the book was quite good. It was a very well-done history of the firearms culture, as well as a chronicle of the steady and incremental erosion of our rights. He filled in gaps on a few things I didn't know too well, such as the history of the Bonus Army.

But when the story kicked in, it seemed a bit too vicious. The sexual elements were unnecessarily over-the-top, and some of the killings seemed gratuitous.

If you want me to sympathize with a man who kills anyone, even a politician, in cold blood, you need me to understand why that person deserves such a fate. The book did a poor job of that.

I'm glad to have read it, but towards page 700 or so, I couldn't help but think it should have been two different books: one on history, and one suspense novel.
 
To those who liked the book and it's message, a question. How much tyranny is enought to start killing people who's sole offence was voting in a way you didnt like?

At what point will anti-smoking laws get bad enough that I can "take action"?
 
Even if you are some sort of psychopath who 100% agrees with what Bowman does, how can you stomach Ross' awful writing?

"Little did Pyruvate know that those words would come back to him sooner than he expected...."
 
Even if you are some sort of psychopath who 100% agrees with what Bowman does, how can you stomach Ross' awful writing?

Could you tell us which books you have written so we can read quality work?
 
Could you tell us which books you have written so we can read quality work?

Logical fallacy. Simply because someone can't produce something better doesn't mean that there aren't better things out there. If I note that a house is shoddily built, but I'm not a carpenter, it doesn't diminish the correctness that the house is shoddy.

Has Mr Ross' book received any critical acclaim outside of the shooting community? I would be very surprised if it has, and I very much doubt that's simply for ideological reasons. It is definitely a "preaching to the choir" book, in that you'd have to pretty much agree with Ross to not be put-off by the premise and imagery, and to forgive its literary flaws.
 
Well it is a time for "change" This last week I have been defending the Current President (who I don't like but folks are not fair) A book that there are parts I do not like/see reason for. Some Political folks who I wish were NOT in office. etc. Just tying to be fair.
 
I'm in the "This book could use a good editor" camp. There are big chunks of the book that seem entirely unnecessary. For example when a young Henry stumbles across a rape and just starts killing everyone. I really don't see why this scene is included other than just to have some action early on in the book. I ended up skipping a few chapters of the "young Henry" section just because it was repeatedly stating in essence "HENRY LIKES GUNSSSSS" over and over until I was getting annoyed. Overall I think its pretty well-written, but there are definitely parts that could have been left on the cutting room floor.
 
I've read it, twice. I usually try to read a body of work twice before I form a definitive opinion on it, unless it's just plain crap that doesn't deserve a second chance.

I really wouldn't recommend this book to my "non-gunnie" friends.

There's too much in it that comes across as teenage angst, interspersed with technical gun minutiae that rambles beyond the point of what's required to describe the firearm being used. In fact, it occurs so often that it serves no other point that to allow the author a chance for gratuitous grandstanding. I guess that might make it appealing to a readership who likes that level of trivia, but to anyone actually looking for a good story, it serves to bog the novel down.

In a good story, one or two detailed excursions into highly technical matters usually serves to lend enough credibility to establish a character as an expert in his field. And a good author will find a way to reintroduce those details later in the story to help a character solve a problem, or illustrate how it gains him an edge in a crisis. The instances in UC too often just read like a gun magazine excerpt, serving no purpose to the story. All that was lacking from some descriptions was an MSRP.


The killings that occurred were described in great detail. A counterpoint might be that we witness murder every evening on television, and that would be true. But the graphic descriptions in the book are not paralleled in the same detail on evening television. I can get over that, but I'd still not give this book to a fence-sitter and expect them to walk away with the impression that gun owners are mainstream. Because the characters in this book just ain't. And the graphic descriptions seem to be there for no reason other than sensationalism. I fail to recall any of those graphic details being used later by anyone in the novel to aid in an investigation. In fact, I don't remember much in the way of investigative work that wasn't either incompetent or just happenstance.

Much like someone with Asperger syndrome or a sociopath would describe a brutal murder, the events are told, observed briefly for their uniqueness and novelty, and forgotten as easily as a dull Superbowl commercial. Unlike in good crime novels, the time in UC spent describing such horrors has no significance to the story itself.


And the character development, while rich in detail, just don't bring me to identify with them, or frankly even like them all that much.

Real characters have real flaws, ones we can actually identify with. Henry Bowman was the perfect man. Much in the way that Ayn Rand's characters are the perfect archetype of her ideology, so were these gunnies. I don't recall any of the hero characters in this novel really having to struggle for much of anything. And the struggle, combined with his humanity, is what often endears the reader to the hero. The ones here were either independently wealthy, or could bend others to their will by their sheer charisma, and really lacked nothing. Moreso they were able to adapt to the most outrageous of human tragedies and events with only a page's worth of "acceptance", and suffered nearly nothing in the way of agony afterwards.


Henry was so perfect that his economics paper - reprinted in entirety in the novel - was too sacred for his professor mark up during grading:

The first thing was that he [the professor] did not make a single mark on the entire paper, but instead put all of his comments on a separate sheet. The second thing was that he gave the paper a grade of A+.

Now of course this is fiction, and being fiction anything can occur. Jesus Christ himself could appear and pronounce this work one of his revelations, worthy to be included alongside the works of Joseph Smith and John Moses Browning. But to retain some grasp on reality, which this book tries to do, events that occur ought to be believable. Since when did anyone ever impress a college professor so much that the work was returned to the student as if it were a reference book, to mark it up with even complimentary interjections would serve to deface it?

And since it was included - complete with footnotes - we are presented with an opportunity to read what such a great college economics paper looks like. Bluntly, as a paper it just plain sucks. Over half the footnotes are nothing at all any professor would accept as resembling a footnote; others reference personal conversations and anecdotal evidence.

Now the material itself is quite interesting. And no doubt the reason John included it was to tell the reader facts about the economics of machinegun regulation in a way besides the usual literary devices like conversations. But events like these just serve to make the protagonist that much less believable. As someone who had to study economics, and knowing that John himself studied it, too . . . we both know better . . . major loss of credibility for me. Again illustrating the point - none of the heros had to struggle.


Another problem I have with the novel is it delves into historical events, but does little to present the complete reality of them. And like any work that ties itself so closely to history, people will accept it as truth. We know from talking to folks that have seen Oliver Stone's movie about JFK's assassination, they accept those facts as surely as if it were a documentary. There are "unintended consequences" when artists mirror history in fictional works. Only time will tell what the gun community eventually takes away from this work and believes as fact.


It had a lot of gun detail for guys that like reading gun magazines. And it sure had some interesting sex scenes. The work itself badly needs editing, and this comes from someone who regularly reads large bodies of works. The terrible use of foreshadowing gave me the impression of the football team who constantly attempt to get the class nerd to turn around and bend over so they can give him a weggie. It was obvious; eventually it got boring; and, just like the class nerd, I finally stopped looking and resigned myself to just get used to it.


I enjoyed the story for what it was. But a pinnacle work for gun owners? Nah, I can think of plenty more . . . with the added benefit of not feeling uncomfortable handing any of those over for the fencesitters to borrow.
 
I can think of plenty more . . . with the added benefit of not feeling uncomfortable handing any of those over for the fencesitters to borrow.

I'd no more give a fence sitter a copy of Unintended Consequences then I would give them a copy of The Turner Diaries.
 
If you recall, Henry didn't just dismember the bodies for the hell of it. He did it to destroy evidence that could/would link him to the killings. Makes sense to me, even if it is brutally disgusting, it had to be done to keep him from being caught.
 
Mr. Ross, in real life, didn't even have the backbone to boycott S&W after they made the deal with the devil - you think he'd ever actually shoot at someone that needed shootin? It's all just fiction.
 
I recall the storyline, and the reason quite well.


What I don't recall was any realism associated with it.

Henry was either a sociopath, somehow mentally detached, or completely unrealistic. I don't recall him even getting ill over any of it. The brutality of the killings was stark, even for people who are accustomed to such things. And Henry was completely a cool cat.

I only ever heard one living, true-life person actually describe doing such things as Henry Bowman did, and it have absolutely no effects on him - Richard "The Iceman" Kuklinski. Find out about him here - Richard Kuklinski, or read the book The Ice Man: Confessions of a Mafia Contract Killer by Philip Carlo. Good book by the way . . . Henry doesn't hold a candle to Richard.

But well-adjusted people don't do the sorts of things Henry did and not suffer tramau. So either Henry was as completely sociopathic as Richard Kuklinski, and we can make that argument, or the character is completely unbelievable. Even in fiction, good fiction, characters are believable. Ayn Rand's characters, as much as I like her ideas and concepts, are not believable, and her work suffers and is criticized for it.

Neither are Ross' characters. Yeah, we can say Henry needed to mutilate bodies to dispose of the evidence. But Kuklinski actually did it. Many, many times. He had it down to a science. Even he talks about putting cologne under his nose, because of the odors and stench that escapes the body, so he could perform the work. Kuklinski even admits to botching the "first few jobs" terribly.

But Henry could do it, first time out of the chute. Just like he could shoot naturally; write economics papers so perfect it astounds his professors into practically enshrining them; expertly pilot aircraft; and make women around him swoon. And because he was perfect, he encountered no problems doing it. No problems in the process. No problems to his psyche. I guess cutting up men and women is just like butchering a deer. Man, this guy is a cool cat.


This novel really wasn't written well at all. The subject matter isn't believable at all. The characters have no flaws, nor need they go through any real struggles for anything. I can only see its appeal to the gun community revolving around offering some neat gun minutiae, fantastical killings and revenge murders of the ATF + other assorted .gov types, and some hot sex.

Man, is this the best we can do? Or perhaps more appropriately, is this what we're willing to settle for?
 
I thought I would like to read UC but after reading this thread I think I will wait for the Quentin Tarantino movie version..............:eek: Thanks for your dissemination Frogman, I appreciate your frank description of the book.
 
The first half of the book with the history of the "gun culture" in the U.S. is a good read.

After that, well...
 
Honestly, the best thing I can recommend to a fencesitter is the movie "Tremors". Bert is a good representative of "gun nuts". A huge nerd who drones on and on about stuff no one cares about, but when things go wrong he is the first one to offer to help and will do what ever it takes to protect those he cares about.

Also, underground worms are the greatest threat to the American way of life sense communism and we need to get the word out.
 
I ordered it so I can read and see what the chatter is about. Just based on some of the descriptions I would be loathe to hand it so a fence sitter also.

Like the idea of Tremors as a gun friendly movie. :)
 
I thought I would like to read UC but after reading this thread I think I will wait for the Quentin Tarantino movie version..............

If you want some fun reads that give good fan service to gunfolks, Stephen Hunter wrote some good crime/suspense novels that have lots of fun gun details. No necessarily high art, but really enjoyable "beach reads". The movie Shooter was based on a Hunter novel, though the book didn't have all the action-film silliness that movie shoved in.

Out of the major "propaganda fiction" or whatever you want to call the politically-charged gun culture books, I have yet to read one that I'd feel slightly comfortable handing to a fencesitter as a representation of gun culture. Enemies, Foreign and Domestic was a semi-decent "beach read" though a bit cloying. It's sequel was ridiculously over-the-top in its villainous caricatures of homosexuals, leftist intellectuals, Muslims, and Hispanics. It can be fun to parody racist archetypes, it's liberating to feel free to have negative characters who happen to be gay/left/Muslim/Hispanic/etc., but to consistently have half your cast be minstrel-show equivalents gets pretty ridiculous. "Can you picture this character saying "orale ese", lisping, or smoking weed? If so, congrats, he's a villain and will probably be killed in some brutal manner." That said, I look forward to reading the final installment, which I expect to be similarly ludicrous, and which I devoutly hope is never held up as an example of gun culture.

Patriots Surviving the Coming Collapse/TEOTEWAKI, which I was reading back when it was still an online draft, is pretty simplistic and cloying, though at least more "edutainment" to a limited degree.

And as much as I hate to stir up controversy, I have to admit that I found The Turner Diaries somewhat offensive. I suppose I'm just a little thin-skinned like that. :what:
 
Carlos Cabeza said:
I thought I would like to read UC but after reading this thread I think I will wait for the Quentin Tarantino movie version

Hey now . . . don't assume my review is so damning its not worth reading. I didn't go that far.

It's an interesting tale. I just feel it's poorly told. And yes, I'm rather incredulous at what it takes to get our community to pronounce somthing THE BEST BOOK EVER.

Personally, I like Penn and Teller's Bullsh-t episode on gun control for fencesitters.

And gunnie novels - Stephen Hunter. Dirty White Boys is every bit as graphic as UC, but a much better written novel, and the violence actually has a point, and consequences.
 
I found The Turner Diaries to be more then somewhat offensive. I found the basic premise of Unintended Consequences to be similar. Someone gets upset at the government and when pushed too far goes on a killing rampage trying to start a revolution. With The Turner Diaries it was race and anti Semitic with Unintended Consequences it was gun laws.

I wouldn't recommend either book to a fence sitter, and I don't recommend The Turner Diaries to anyone unless they wish an insight into the white supremacist movement. Even then it is offensive.
 
I guess I must be an oddball.
I didn't find Unintended Consequences offensive ... I just thought of it as one author's conception of what ..."might" happen if one individual "snapped" after surviving a "home invasion" that turned out to be Government thugs.
Yes, it had some rather base writing. There are far better uses of foreshadowing in other literature, it probably isn't likely that Bowman could effectively dismember a body so efficiently the first time out.
He doesn't seem disturbed at having to kill ... neither does Jack Baur, but atleast he supposedly is used to it.
But, it's basically a fantasy.
I guess I'm the result of too much STAR TREK as I was growing up.

I wonder if anyone here has read R.A.R. Clouston's two part epic, Where Freedom Reigns?
In some ways that was MUCH better than Unintended Consequences. It doesn't depend upon one individual, and a couple accomplices or whatever to further the plot, and, interestingly, has a spiritual element I thought added depth to the story.
 
I'm glad I am not the only one that was somewhat put off by the content. I really enjoy buying and shooting guns, but I was thinking that if this book is being held up as a beacon in the 'gun culture' then maybe I am not so sure that I want to be a part of that.

I realize that gun owners are being unnecessarily weighed down by legislation, but I also believe that all other avenues to try and change this should be exhausted before people start ramping up for any kind of violence.
 
Phydeaux642,

In all fairness, remember when this was written. Shortly after the 1994 ban, and Waco was still very fresh in all our minds. In fact, it was all over the news. And despite Janet "I did it for the children" Reno claiming full responsibility, it was becoming apparent that no one was really going to do anything substantive to hold anyone accountable.

Gun owners were a mix of mad, scared, and full of trepidation to find out where this all was finally going to wind up.


Tommygunn,

I grew up Star Trekkie, too. Picard over Kirk for me, please. And I'm a huge Tolkien fan. So I understand the hero concept; even the unassailable, noble hero concept. But that label just doesn't fit Henry Bowman. He's perfect in all regards. Even his alcoholism . . . . isn't. He went on an extended college bender, and I'm not sure his grades even suffered.

The most glaring aspect of Henry's character which is so NOT PERFECT is his vacant, sociopathic behavior when it comes to killing and murder. If it weren't for the fact that his character was just so - socially vacant - he'd be class President, Quarterback, chess club champion . . . actually he could quite literally achieve nearly anything he set his mind to for a week, I guess.

Except be realistic.


The only way to approach this book IS to conclude it's fantastical. But it's got such a duality to it. It SO wants to be a history book, first grounded in reality, complete with highly detailed references to laws and historic events. As we approach modern day it moves into allegorical and not-quite-subtle references to current political figures; then suddenly it SO wants to be a work of unbelievable fiction. And that's the rub. The reader is asked to make such a leap from one to the other that it's just too much of a chasm to clear.


I guess in his novel Ross is exploring where the "line in the sand" lies. Interestingly enough, in 2001 the same small publishing house released a collection of essays by Jeff Synder. Assembled into a tiny book entitled Nation of Cowards is an article written during the same time period - nearly the same year of the release of UC. Snyder wrote what would become the last chapter of the book - The Line in the Sand.

Its well worth reading; the whole book is all of about 170 pages. And using both John Locke's Second Treatise on Government and our own American Revolution as background, the article clearly denounces behavior such as Henry Bowman's as immoral and quite the opposite of freedom, all without ever specifically naming the other publication Unintended Consequences.

This one I'll lend out to the fencesitters, along with Penn and Teller's episode of Gun Control is Bullsh-t. If those brief works won't persuade them, nothing will.

And if I had nothing more than these two works to represent me, my views as a gun owner, and the gun culture I understand and identify with . . . . I'd say I couldn't be any better represented.
 
Wow, tough crowd for UC.

I thought the interesting thing brought up in the book is just how effective a few committed people can be (the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising portion of the book). John Ross takes the fictional story line some other places but it does go to show why "they" want to take our guns. Look at what happened to the Germans when they went after a small handful of people in Warsaw who truly had their backs to the wall. Those were people who didn't have any guns that they couldn't steal or get with their bare hands, and who'd had no training or experience with guns at all! People who won't be pushed any more CAN accomplish a lot, even though the liberals will tell you that you "have no chance" if the .gov sends the National Guard after you. They may well get you but it can be unbearably expensive for them. (Especially if the National Guard is lukewarm at best about being used against the populace)
 
Look at what happened to the Germans when they went after a small handful of people in Warsaw who truly had their backs to the wall. Those were people who didn't have any guns that they couldn't steal or get with their bare hands, and who'd had no training or experience with guns at all!

Last I checked the Germans won and the survivors who weren't executed on the spot went to the concentration camps. Shows what a small group of determined people can accomplish when they don't have popular support.

They may well get you but it can be unbearably expensive for them.

It wasn't unbearably expensive for the Germans. They stayed in Poland until the Red Army threw them out.
 
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