Justice Department allows sale of 3D printed guns - End of gun control?

[LiveLife]

US Justice Department settled with Cody Wilson, founder of Defense Distributed who provided downloadable files of 3D printed gun - http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/07/20/this-marks-end-gun-control.html

Proliferation of "metal" 3D printers will only continue like this 1911 as manufacturers may prefer 3D printing over MIM process in the future (which can be of higher strength/quality than MIM gun parts currently used) - https://www.stratasysdirect.com/tec...sintering/3d-printed-1911-pistol-how-its-made

In the near future, we may end up ordering our gun parts online from 3D printed sources. As metal 3D printing becomes more common at lower price, enforcing "gun control" will be very difficult, if not impossible.

"Anyone with access to a metal 3D printer can make guns functionally and aesthetically indistinguishable from any gun that can be bought in a store. Such metal printers are available for less than $2,000.

How the government will stop people from obtaining these printers isn’t exactly obvious. Proposals to require background checks, mandatory serial numbers and even a registration process for printers are easily defeated. Even if printers are registered with the government, what is going to stop gangs from stealing them? And the designs for making your own printer have been available on the Internet for years.

3D printers make the already extremely difficult job of controlling access to guns practically impossible. The government is not going to be able to ban guns, and limits on the size of bullet magazines will be even more laughable than before. Many parts of a gun can be made on very inexpensive, plastic 3D printers or even from simple machine tools.

... It is understandable that governments want to regulate 3D printing, but gutting the First Amendment is too high a cost. This settlement may bring some awareness to the futility of gun control regulations that only disarm the law-abiding."

 

[Swifty Morgan]

This story is interesting, but why aren't leftists and other totalitarians equally concerned about CNC? With CNC (or even conventional machinery and some good drawings) you can make REAL guns, not just unreliable plastic gadgets that might blow up after two shots.

Maybe urban gun-grabbers aren't any more knowledgeable about tools than they are about guns. I have a mill and a lathe, and if my life depended on it, I could make my own firearms.

Metal 3D printing is suddenly becoming affordable, as in less than $2K. There may soon be wet jammies all over the coasts and in Chicago.

 

[LiveLife]

I think the full notion of "metal" 3D printing has not sunk into most people, which I believe is the future like what CNC did to manufacturing.

While images of "disposable" quality 3D printed objects may be in most people's minds, reality of "metal" 3D printing is high quality durable products like this.

 

[TTv2]

Few years ago I worked at a place that did 3D metal printing on Sintering Laser Machines (SLM's), the best way I can describe it is it's precision CNC controlled laser welding. The product being made was dental implants and I think given how guns have looser tolerances than teeth, I can see 3D printing as a viable option in the future. The only issue right now is it takes so damn long to print something. I'm sure the times will be reduced in the future.

Also, it's not always foolproof. If you have an area that doesn't get built up properly, it's like a bad casting. Maybe not a problem in the mag well area, but anywhere the brunt of the recoil is taken will not last long.

That's for stuff like frames, if the future is going to be fire control groups like the Sig P320, yeah, then 3D printing is the end of gun control. The next step for arms control will be biometric scanning of everything you buy. I wouldn't doubt in 20 years that every store you walk into will have a camera to scan your face and an AI will run your identity through known Prohibited Persons registries, so ammo won't be able to be bought... outside of the black market and the dark web.

The future is shaping up to be a scary dystopia, but I become instantly calm knowing that in said future I'll be able to marry a robot that looks like Ellen Page from X-Men: The Last Stand.

 

[AlexanderA]

I don't believe we're at the point where the technology is a viable option for the ordinary man on the street.

 

[labnoti]

You don't have to be at the point where it's viable. You just have to see the inevitability of it. But along with the inevitability of free access to unlimited gun parts, there can also be inescapable gun detection. While the 2nd Amendment has maintained the lawfulness of possession, we can also see the right of trespass being controlled in novel ways as the public marketplace has been usurped by corporate retailers and personal transport is on the verge of replacement by network control. So a person may find themselves in circumstances where their possession of uncontrolled firearms cannot be prevented, but where they cannot go anywhere or do anything meaningful while they are in possession of one.

What is conceivable, but neither viable nor inevitable, is the ability to possess some amount of innocuous matter that can near instantaneously be transformed ("printed" if you will) into some contraband, and just as instantaneously be transformed again into innocuous matter. Only with such an ability as that does mere possession become irrelevant and one's actions rather than their possessions become the most practical basis of their culpability.

 

[Ignition Override]

Does this new concept mean that many people who would be able to "print"/produce Tiny handgun components can correctly assemble them in the frame and slide?

Maybe YouTube instructions on frame component assembly will make it fairly easy?
If I were a desperate thug, and heard about this process--even with a free printer and a qualified operator-- the conclusion would be No Way. I would look on the black market, or break into cars until I found an intact handgun.

 

[Kano383]

Nanobarcodes, which are coded nanoparticles embedded in a product, and readable from 3 to 4 feet away by the appropriate scanner, already exist.

Your printing media will be coded, machines capable of printing firearms will embed their own serial number in anything they produce, traceability will actually be far more invasive than a mere serial number stamped on a frame...

Once every single part in a firearm will carry information about the exact location and time it was manufactured, from which batch of product sold where, when and to whom, by which machine, from which digital files created by who and downloaded by who, where and when, then you’ll find yourself in a world where criminals have to craft their guns out of a solid block of steel, the old fashioned way.

And citizens wary of gun control will look for custom smiths, and shun “production” pieces.

 

[edwardware]

". . . a metal 3D printer can make guns functionally and aesthetically indistinguishable from any gun that can be bought in a store. Such metal printers are available for less than $2,000."

No, and no. My employer uses several $1,000,000+ 3D Sintered Metal printers. The parts they produce are neither equivalent or indistinguishable from machined or stamped parts. Not even close.

Legally this is a victory, but it shouldn't have been a question to begin with.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

This is another way to build firearms and parts. No matter what people think of the process, it’s still a process that can produce an item that meets BATFE’s definition of a firearm. Again, what you think of the process itself doesn’t change the fact that it’s an actual process that produces an actual firearm.

We can already do this without this method-this is just another way to skin the cat. The same rules and regs apply to this as they would an AK build using a kit that came from somewhere else. Same rules and regs apply to someone who wants to build a firearm with a rubber band, a nail, some pipe fittings, and some wood for a handle. What you think about the viability of the process doesn’t matter. The builder can still create a firearm. The printer is just a different way to achieve it. And it’s another way to express our second amendment rights.

So why is everybody so worried about it?

 

[Wanderling]

This is another way to build firearms and parts. No matter what people think of the process, it’s still a process that can produce an item that meets BATFE’s definition of a firearm. Again, what you think of the process itself doesn’t change the fact that it’s an actual process that produces an actual firearm.

We can already do this without this method-this is just another way to skin the cat. The same rules and regs apply to this as they would an AK build using a kit that came from somewhere else. Same rules and regs apply to someone who wants to build a firearm with a rubber band, a nail, some pipe fittings, and some wood for a handle. What you think about the viability of the process doesn’t matter. The builder can still create a firearm. The printer is just a different way to achieve it. And it’s another way to express our second amendment rights.

So why is everybody so worried about it?

1. It’s a new and shiny process that sounds cool, futuristic and revolutionary. And it is.

2. Making a gun the old fashioned way requires metalworking skills, that most people simply don’t possess, and multiple tools. 3D printing, once evolved, would require one tool and little skill. This worries gun control advocates.

3.As Kano383 and TTv2 stated above, even the technology existing today makes total surveillance and control already possible, and it will only get more sophisticated. Theoretically, it’s already possible to design guns that can be remotely disabled. So the 3D gun printing will actually make guns easier to control, which should scare 2A supporters.

In the end, it’s all about legislation. The way the technology is evolving, there’s going to be an unprecedented concentration of wealth and power in the hands of very few, with the further development of AI and automated mass production, in theory in 50 years at most, a company like Google could create their own fully automated army that would rival most world armies and have no conscience or personal loyalties.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

This story is interesting, but why aren't leftists and other totalitarians equally concerned about CNC? With CNC (or even conventional machinery and some good drawings) you can make REAL guns, not just unreliable plastic gadgets that might blow up after two shots.

Maybe urban gun-grabbers aren't any more knowledgeable about tools than they are about guns. I have a mill and a lathe, and if my life depended on it, I could make my own firearms.

Metal 3D printing is suddenly becoming affordable, as in less than $2K. There may soon be wet jammies all over the coasts and in Chicago.

Exactly
Most only know what they learn on CNN or MSNBC and that includes the people teaching your kids.

It’s scary what many of these self proclaimed experts “think”. Their attitudes are also mind numbing.

My guess is that machine work has historically been blue collar which most of them look down on as low brow and low class. They don’t understand that CNC and similar technologies are our future.

I’ve tried to get other “educators” to see that big production lines aren’t our future. Instead smaller scale custom just in time manufacturing is what will drive our economy.

Companies like Keltec and other small gun makers are examples. They use this technology and are profitable because they understand it.

Personally, I’d love to have a mill and lathe. They’reon my list but I’m also not typical of academia, and it’s probably one of the reasons I no longer teaching.

As an aside getting to the point of being able to make a gun using a HF or Mini Machine shop lathe and mill isn’t just buy the tools and go to town. There’s a bit of a learning curve. Sure it’s not massive but it’s not as easy as 3D printing.

And yes if an all out gun ban ever happened, I suspect that lots of guns would appear from folks with home machine shops.

 

[reddog81]

Interesting, but I don't think it'll be the end of gun control. Honestly, I doubt it'll have any effect on gun control. I can't imagine many criminals going through the process of buying a 3D printer and going through all the steps to make a gun. That sounds like a lot of work...

There are plenty of 80% lowers out there and you could put together 4 AR-15's for the price of the printer alone. You can find any part except the frame for a 1911 on eBay for under $50, and you can find 80% frames easily. How often are these used in crimes?

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Interesting, but I don't think it'll be the end of gun control. Honestly, I doubt it'll have any effect on gun control. I can't imagine many criminals going through the process of buying a 3D printer and going through all the steps to make a gun. That sounds like a lot of work...

There are plenty of 80% lowers out there and you could put together 4 AR-15's for the price of the printer alone. You can find any part except the frame for a 1911 on eBay for under $50, and you can find 80% frames easily. How often are these used in crimes?

Exactly
In fact it’ll be another way for those who want to regulate everything to reach into other areas under the guise of public safety and similar arguments.

 

[Wanderling]

Exactly
Most only know what they learn on CNN or MSNBC and that includes the people teaching your kids.

It’s scary what many of these self proclaimed experts “think”. Their attitudes are also mind numbing.

My guess is that machine work has historically been blue collar which most of them look down on as low brow and low class. They don’t understand that CNC and similar technologies are our future.

I’ve tried to get other “educators” to see that big production lines aren’t our future. Instead smaller scale custom just in time manufacturing is what will drive our economy.

Companies like Keltec and other small gun makers are examples. They use this technology and are profitable because they understand it.

Personally, I’d love to have a mill and lathe. They’reon my list but I’m also not typical of academia, and it’s probably one of the reasons I no longer teaching.

As an aside getting to the point of being able to make a gun using a HF or Mini Machine shop lathe and mill isn’t just buy the tools and go to town. There’s a bit of a learning curve. Sure it’s not massive but it’s not as easy as 3D printing.

And yes if an all out gun ban ever happened, I suspect that lots of guns would appear from folks with home machine shops.

It’s not an either / or scenario.

Building large complex things like cars, ships, airplanes will require large complex manufacturing operations in the foreseeable future, especially if you still have workers doing parts of assembly process (which is going to be a political issue more than technology issue).

Building simpler mass produced things like appliances would still be more cost efficient on a larger scale, because you still have to provide them with power, water, materials, haul away waste, logistically it would still me much cheaper to do when these operations are concentrated at one place.

Small scale production of specialized custom parts is where distributed 3D printing shines.

 

[BSA1]

People fear what they don't understand.

Remember the fear that Glocks would be undectable due to it being plastic?

3D is just another way of making something that is already legal to do and as pointed out requires a significant cash investment for tooling plus training to know how to do it.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Justice Department allows sale of 3D printed guns - End of gun control?

Allowing the sale of the 3D printer files to make guns does not allow the sale of 3D printed guns. For decades, ATF has said if you are not a prohibited person, you can legally make a Title I (1968 GCA) ordinary firearm for your own personal use (but not for the purpose of sale). Making to sell a 3D printed gun would still be a violation of existing federal laws on commercial manufacture and distribution. Not all but some state and local jurisdictions also have laws on home-built guns.

The linked headline "This marks the end of gun control" is more sensational than the conclusion of the author: "This settlement may bring some awareness to the futility of gun control regulations that only disarm the law-abiding." I suspect the news source juiced up the title.

Basically, DoD and DoS relented on ITAR restrictions and allowed the distribution of computer files for 3D printing of Title I (1968 GCA) firearms (ordinary firearms as commonly found in civilian commerce), but not firearms covered by the USML, (which includes extraordinary military firearms covered by ITAR and which are also restricted by Title II (1934 NFA) taxation and registration requirements).



I have read coverage of the settlement written by David Kopel of Independence Institute in "US government drops prohibition on files for 3D printed arms" at Volokh Conspiracy 10 Jul 2018.

The settlement is pretty narrow and has a long history.
_ under International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), export of arms on the U.S. Munitions List (USML) requires an ITAR export permit (fees starting at $2,250)
_ 2012 the USML grew to include many ordinary firearms (and included the computer files for 3D printing firearms receivers) even for US producers who did business only within the US with no exports*
_ 2015 Defense Distributed and Second Amendment Foundation sued against the ITAR ban on distribution of computer files for 3D printing of AR15 receivers
_ Changes to ITAR were proposed in the last years of the Obama Admin but not published nor acted on
_ Jan 2018 the US Supreme Court declined to hear the Defense Distributed case
_ May 2018 revisions to ITAR were proposed by the Trump Admin. Ordinary firearms were removed from ITAR. Kept under ITAR were full-auto firearms, those greater than .50 caliber, magazines over 50 rounds, and "sound moderators".
_ First week of Jul 2018 the US Departments of Defense and State settled the Daniel Defense lawsuit by dropping the restriction on computer files for 3D printed non-restricted firearms.

*(As an aside, I recall that international organizations who supported ITAR called on ITAR regulation of domestic manufacture and distribution of slug guns and long range varmint rifles because they were identical to military combat shotguns and sniper rifles; actually a lot of military combat shotguns (Win 1897, Model 12) and sniper rifles (Rem Model 700) were civilian sporting models before being adopted by the military.)

 

[buck460XVR]

I'm confused as to why this would be any different than allowing the sale of guns made by other means? If they are new guns, manufactured for resale, will they still not have a serial number and the maker have a license to produce them for resale? Being legal to produce still does not mean they will be legal to possess by those prohibited. From what I watched, there still is more to it than any Joe Dirt pushing a button, there is still a certain amount of skill and manual labor required. Cost efficiency means that iffin one is only looking for only a few firearms, that they are better off buying factory. Car manufacturers can legally make vehicles that can do 120 MPH. But it is not legal for us to drive them that fast.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

It’s not an either / or scenario.

Building large complex things like cars, ships, airplanes will require large complex manufacturing operations in the foreseeable future, especially if you still have workers doing parts of assembly process (which is going to be a political issue more than technology issue).

Building simpler mass produced things like appliances would still be more cost efficient on a larger scale, because you still have to provide them with power, water, materials, haul away waste, logistically it would still me much cheaper to do when these operations are concentrated at one place.

Small scale production of specialized custom parts is where distributed 3D printing shines.

I agree with you except that I never said it was either/or. If I implied it that wasn’t my point.

My point is that there are new production techniques that make the large scale production line not as useful for many products. It allows for smaller numbers of products needing to be made to be profitable. It allows for batches of a product to be made in limited runs. And those are just some of the benefits I can think of right this second.

I’d even contend that some auto manufacturing can be done using newer techniques. Sure your Camry or F150 needs to be built on a line to be cost effective, but limited runs of unique specialized vehicles might be able to utilize some sort of hybrid manufacturing.

The reality is you and I agree that the possibilities are endless, and that’s what’s so scary to those who want government control of everything. By having all these possibilities we allow for freedom. The freedom you and I and most of the people here value and fight it protect. The freedom that our 2nd Amendment ensures and is strengthened when people can make guns, when they have options and don’t need to ask the government permission to exercise their rights.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

The cost of 3D printers and the quality of what they can produce isn't the issue.
This is; "The U.S. Justice Department announced a legal settlement and its surrender to the First Amendment arguments July 10 made in a case brought by Cody Wilson"

 

[Wanderling]

I agree with you except that I never said it was either/or. If I implied it that wasn’t my point.

My point is that there are new production techniques that make the large scale production line not as useful for many products. It allows for smaller numbers of products needing to be made to be profitable. It allows for batches of a product to be made in limited runs. And those are just some of the benefits I can think of right this second.

I’d even contend that some auto manufacturing can be done using newer techniques. Sure your Camry or F150 needs to be built on a line to be cost effective, but limited runs of unique specialized vehicles might be able to utilize some sort of hybrid manufacturing.

The reality is you and I agree that the possibilities are endless, and that’s what’s so scary to those who want government control of everything. By having all these possibilities we allow for freedom. The freedom you and I and most of the people here value and fight it protect. The freedom that our 2nd Amendment ensures and is strengthened when people can make guns, when they have options and don’t need to ask the government permission to exercise their rights.

My apologies, then, I must've misread your post.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Interesting, but I don't think it'll be the end of gun control. Honestly, I doubt it'll have any effect on gun control. I can't imagine many criminals going through the process of buying a 3D printer and going through all the steps to make a gun. That sounds like a lot of work...

There are plenty of 80% lowers out there and you could put together 4 AR-15's for the price of the printer alone. You can find any part except the frame for a 1911 on eBay for under $50, and you can find 80% frames easily. How often are these used in crimes?

While it is very true there aren't going to be very many criminals that will bother with the training required to "print" a gun. But by the same token, they're very few heroin addicts that have the skills to convert raw opium into heroin. For a few thousand initial investment, and the time it takes to download some files from the Internet and enterprising criminal can produce "clean" weapons for sale on the black market. A criminal culture provides a demand for weaponry. It doesn't take a PhD in economics to know that if you can make a profit supplying product someone is going to step in and find a way to bring that product to the market. 3-D printers, computer-controlled casting and milling machines… Just one more means to a rather sad end. And the real tragedy, if not for the way our society has punished those willing to learn the skills simply by making the use of foreign machinists more profitable through our tax structure, many of these people would be contributing to the real economy.

 

[LiveLife]

There are many who build their own knives for personal use, collecting or for barter/sale.

There are many who fabricate their own tools, car accessories etc. for personal use, collecting or for barter/sale.

As "metal" 3D printing becomes more common and feasible, I can see various items being printed and assembled from everyday items like forks, spoons, knives, etc. to shop tools, automobile parts, gun parts and beyond; whether for personal use, collecting or for barter/sale. Why "metal" 3D print everyday items? Imagine a remote location like Antarctica where everything must be flown in.

I can easily see "metal" 3D printing becoming very significant to users/collectors of different categories of items that are no longer in production. Instead of trying to locate used/rare items expending a lot of time (and not even being able to buy due to long distance/high cost), now you can simply print or order the items you need new from a 3D printer. I can definitely see "metal" 3D printing definitely filling the void of tools and items that are rarely used or used once-in-a-blue moon to eliminate the need for warehousing. Instead of storing these items, they can be simply printed when needed.

For various countries' corporations/governments/military, instead of warehousing millions of replacement parts for various tools and equipment they use, now they can simply place "metal" 3D printers at warehouses/centralized locations and print out needed parts on 24/7 basis. After initial purchase cost of "metal" 3D printers, long-term cost may be lower as they no longer need to warehouse parts/items that may never be used. I can see "metal" 3D printers on cruise ships, aircraft carriers, space stations, etc. will become mandatory.

As to high cost of "metal" 3D printers for individuals, consider public or private "shared" metal 3D printers. Imagine a near-term world where anyone can simply order "metal" 3D printed parts/items for cost of material and usage fee. I can definitely imagine gun ranges and clubs with "metal" 3D printers available to members at low usage cost that can print on 24/7 basis.

You have a broken gun part (let's say rare collectible) and order the replacement and pick it up the next day on your trip to the range.

Life is good.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

There are many who build their own knives for personal use, collecting or for barter/sale.

There are many who fabricate their own tools, car accessories etc. for personal use, collecting or for barter/sale.

As "metal" 3D printing becomes more common and feasible, I can see various items being printed and assembled from everyday items like forks, spoons, knives, etc. to shop tools, automobile parts, gun parts and beyond; whether for personal use, collecting or for barter/sale. Why "metal" 3D print everyday items? Imagine a remote location like Antarctica where everything must be flown in.

I can easily see "metal" 3D printing becoming very significant to users/collectors of different categories of items that are no longer in production. Instead of trying to locate used/rare items expending a lot of time (and not even being able to buy due to long distance/high cost), now you can simply print or order the items you need new from a 3D printer. I can definitely see "metal" 3D printing definitely filling the void of tools and items that are rarely used or used once-in-a-blue moon to eliminate the need for warehousing. Instead of storing these items, they can be simply printed when needed.

For various countries' corporations/governments/military, instead of warehousing millions of replacement parts for various tools and equipment they use, now they can simply place "metal" 3D printers at warehouses/centralized locations and print out needed parts on 24/7 basis. After initial purchase cost of "metal" 3D printers, long-term cost may be lower as they no longer need to warehouse parts/items that may never be used. I can see "metal" 3D printers on cruise ships, aircraft carriers, space stations, etc. will become mandatory.

As to high cost of "metal" 3D printers for individuals, consider public or private "shared" metal 3D printers. Imagine a near-term world where anyone can simply order "metal" 3D printed parts/items for cost of material and usage fee. I can definitely imagine gun ranges and clubs with "metal" 3D printers available to members at low usage cost that can print on 24/7 basis.

You have a broken gun part (let's say rare collectible) and order the replacement and pick it up the next day on your trip to the range.

Life is good.

I can see this in the long term, but some items are cheaper to mass produce, ship and even store. So it’ll all depend on the items and the associated factors, before it becomes common place.

I do see the next decade having a massive shift in manufacturing. We’ll see the gun industry totally reshaped. We already see Remington hanging on for dear life. The companies that understand the coming disruption and a majority of the related factors will survive. Those that don’t will no longer exist as we know them.

 

[.308 Norma]

Remember the fear that Glocks would be undectable due to it being plastic?

Yeah, I remember that. And I'm sad to say the first few times I heard that nonsense, it came from fellow gun enthusiasts.