Justify the .380's continued existance - please-

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You guys that think the 32 will out class the .380 ballistically, Id sure like to see your data..the closest real comparison is the 32 and 380 Guardian..not the new 32 NAA Guardian chambering either. Another is the Keltec 32/380..same barrel length, breech style etc.

The 380 walks away with more than 1-1/2 times the energy from the same make/model bullet and gun/barrel length.

Im not defending it...but Im not gonna sit here and listen to stuff that has not bearing either. The Magsafe ammo and that "niche" ammo may be nice but Im comparing a +P JHP from a good maker. Hell if you listen to some makers they make .380 ammo that "Will kill a bear at 100 yds and turn it into a 44 magnum" or some hooopla.

Youve got to get the little 60 gr 32 ACP round "OVER 1200 FPS" to get equivalent ballistics to the .380 shot from the same NA Guardian. NAA did it with a wildcat load that is gonna be nice little caliber with Corbons help.

Many people cant shoot 9mm's, due to laws limiting power, size etc. The USA isnt the only place in the world where they shoot guns and many other countries limit their "civilian" or legally owned chamberings to much smaller rounds.
Or health reasons like previously stated...example my CZ83 Mak and .380's I have, I could triple tap better than any gun made after shooting my 45's and 40's. Its all about recoil and its a relative to the shooter at best.

Respectfully,
Shoot well................
 
Why a 380?

1) Because there are times that 380 is enough and small enough to carry when a 9mm is not (like business suit type meetings).

2) If you are confident in your abilities with a 380 and not with a 9mm.
 
1911Tuner, the .380 Beretta you refer to is the Cheetah, not Cougar.
The Cheetah 86FS is the varient with the tip-up barrel.
The Cougar comes in 9mm, .40, .357 and .45.
 
.380 sticks around because of its propensity for small, light, concealable, inexpensive blowback autos.

There really isn't a similarly priced pistol comparable to, say, a Bersa .380.

Now if Kahr PM9s were $250, you might be on to something.

There's also a controllability issue; sub-compact 9x19s tend to have a lot of muzzle flip and perceived recoil. 9x17 blowbacks don't, even at the same size/weight level.
 
Because my P-232 is a "sexy" beast. Seriously, a fellow LEO went to a Speer demo with geletin shooting. He left with a new respect for 90gr Golddots. Expansion .60 penetration 9-10". Not bad for a .380ACP. MY P-232 holds 8rnds, weighs 16ozs., and is more accurate than I am. It's as reliable as my big Sigs,too and carries like a dream. It is the snubbie of autopistols IMHO. I hope to get a P-232SL with Sigsights and Hogue grips.
 
.380 Autopistols

If you can live with the size and hand-cycling isn't an issue, the Beretta
M-84 is a super little pistol. It's a double stack, but is also available
in a single stack...the M-85 I think. I've owned one of each in years past, and they were accurate and as reliable as a baseball bat. Fed anything
that I could throw at'em, and never missed a beat. The 13-round
double stack magazines are around, but a little pricey. Recoil in the
M-84 is such that you can pull the trigger as fast as your finger will move,
and keep the whole magazine in the 8-ring of a B-27 at 20 feet
with just a little practice. If I were in the market for a .380, and
size wasn't an issue, the M-84 would be my hands-down pick.
They're comparable in size to a Colt Officer's/Defender, but lighter
and much more svelte.

I have to agree with Don...Underestimating the .380 is a mistake.

Gonna try to buy mine back from my step-pappy. See what ya'll
started!:uhoh:

Tuner
 
I have a Browning 380 BDA. It allows my wife to use a better ccartridge than a 22LR. Health issues do not allow her to use a 9MM anymore. The Browning BDA reduces the reciol of the smaller 380's.
Click to expand...

I'm in an identical situation...as well as my buddy has a Mak' in .380 that eats .380 ACP.

CZ52'
 
Wish I could help. The only .380 I have owned was a Colt Pony Pocketlite. I carried it for a few years, but every single time that I felt there was even the remotest chance I would need it, I had this sinking feeling in the pit of my tum, that it was just not enough gun. I traded it in for a Browning HP .40, and have never regretted it.
 
Posted by Byron: I have a Browning 380 BDA. It allows my wife to use a better ccartridge than a 22LR. Health issues do not allow her to use a 9MM anymore. The Browning BDA reduces the reciol of the smaller 380's. Byron
Click to expand...
You took the words right out of my mouth. While my wife doesn't have any health issues that affect her shooting ability, she is recoil sensative and a hit with a .380ACP is more effective than a miss with a 9mm ...
f77.jpg

... Plus, fourteen rounds of .380ACP (above right next to a compact 9mm in about the same size) is nothing to laugh at either.
 
Hi, I've been lurking for a long time and much appreciate the knowledge I've picked up from this site.

I finally got my hands on a P-3AT a week ago (#42xx). I was in a local gun shop with my 18 yr old son who has talked me into looking at AR-15's and mentioned to the owner that I was still on his waiting list for the P-3AT's when he got some. He said You mean like this one here? and he pulled a small box from a larger one on the floor behind the counter. It was the only P-3AT from a shipment of otherwise only P-32s. I asked where I was on his list and he said you're here and they're not. $269 and it was mine. BTW I've been carrying a P-32 (#90xxx) for 6 months and have put about 400 rounds of S&B and Win white box through it with only a few light strike-no fires with the S&B. After some of the sad stories here and at KTOG I consider myself fortunate.

I took both the P-32 and new P-3AT to the range last Thursday and shot 50 UMC 32s from the P-32 (the first time I've tried these; lots of flash, even on a sunny day) and 25 win white box 32s. They all fed perfectly.

Of course I was much anticipating the P-3AT and it did not disappoint. I shot 50 win white box fmjs without any problem; the gun was straight from the box with no special prep. I then switched to S&B and shot 75 of those. The only problem from the entire session was one no-fire on the second shot but the mag had popped out 1/4 inch so no round chambered after the first shot. My fault for not inserting the mag all the way to latch fully.

The 3AT was noticably more powerfull than the 32, both in recoil and hitting power (I was shooting at metal knockdown targets mostly. I've got a scab on my right thumb knuckle from shooting so many rounds from these small guns in one session. My feeling is that it came from the 3AT mostly. I was impressed by the accuracy of both these guns. I was able to consistantly hit 3" to 5" metal targets from 7, 10, and then 15 yards.

After reading dozens if not hundreds of posts concerning .380 vs. .32, while my observations are only from shooting the two guns side by side, I'll be carrying the .380 once I get a good pocket holster for it. Seeing the way those steel targets danced from the .380 vs. te .32 is all I need. My range has some round 4" and 5" free-standing steel targets you can set on a table. With the attached base each one is pretty hefty. The .32s moved them a few inches or turn them but the .380s flipped them over pretty well and knocked a few off the table. That's not real scientific but it'll do for me.

That being said, I'm a big fan of these little guns since I've had the .32 in my front shorts or jeans pocket all last spring and summer and hardly knew it was there although I definately felt naked when it wasn't. And of course no one else would have a clue. As an aside, most people get a kick out of carrying at walmart for the first time which I can whole heartedly relate to, but my favorite is carrying in our local Wild Oats (a large health food supermarket) here in The Peoples Republic of Portland Maine when I go there 3 or 4 times a week to get a take out lunch (some of the best sandwiches and the best take out sushi in town). Not alot of carrying goin on in there.

Give the Kel-tecs a try if they fit your need; they seem to have got most of the early bugs out.
 
Some people don't make their selection based strictly on the smallest package available in the most "powerful" caliber given that size. Other criteria and priorities come into play that are different than that.

Me personally, I am quite comfortable carrying my commercial Bulgarian (Arsenal) Makarov chambered in 380 that I bought new a few years back. All I could afford at the time and it turned out so well that even though I now have other more "main stream" hand guns it is what I continue to CCW. Rugged, reliable, very accurate, light recoil, and easy to CCW. Think a lot of people underestimate the 380. 9mm and larger are more efficient to be sure but IMHO the 380 can and will get the job done as long as (1)-it is reliable..(2)-the "shooter" can quickly put rounds on target accurately with consistency under a wide variety of conditions, positions, etc. Am constantly amazed at how badly I see the average person shooting at the range with their latest greatest wonder (insert make, model, caliber here). Including a lot of law enforcement. This alone makes me pretty comfortable carrying my "underpowered" 380. (Note: I said average..there are some good shooters out there to be sure).
 
Browning BDA

The BDA and the Beretta M-84 are essentially the same pistol, with a couple of differences. The BDA has a slide-mounted hammer drop safety,
and the M-84's is frame-mounted. My nod goes to the 84 for
the simple reason that the safety works the same as on a 1911.
Other than that, the differences are a non-issue other than lowering
the hammer on a hot chamber with the 84.

On the lack of stopping power of the .380...Used at the very short to powder-burning distances that the gun will most likely be used, a
small female can put rounds into an attacker so fast that he'll either
turn her loose or drop dead before she can empty the magazine.
My wife...5-3 and 115 pounds can empty an 84 into a B-27 in about
3 seconds with all but one round hitting somewhere within the 8-ring.
Distance was 3 feet and firing was done one-handed, DA first shot.
The flyer went into the groin area. Equals getting hit with a load and
a half of 000 Buckshot amidships...Any takers? (You should see what
14 rounds of hardball will do to a gelatin block at 5 feet.)

Good pistols. Caliber...No powerhouse, but not too shabby if the
ranges are short. Not one that a soldier or a cop would choose,
but for purely last-ditch, close range defensive purposes, up to
the task.

Just my nickel's worth...(Inflation)
Tuner
 
M. Irwin says

"Unfortunately the best, bar none, pistol for .380 is no longer in production, and it's tough to find good copies...

The Remington 51..."


1927 was a bad year in that regard..............................:mad:

Shoot well.
 
Browning BDA 380

1911Tuner said,
"The BDA has a slide-mounted hammer drop safety,
and the M-84's is frame-mounted. My nod goes to the 84 for
the simple reason that the safety works the same as on a 1911."

Good point, 1911Tuner.

I vote for the BDA380 for a reason similar to yours: the BDA 380's slide mounting safety/decocker works the same as the 92FS series and 8000 Cougar series Berettas. ;)

Same manual of arms as my other Beretta, so the BDA 380 makes a great back-up or substitute to the larger Berettas.

I'd also like to remind folks that the Browning BDA is manufactured by Beretta in Italy, is stamped with the PB logo and it accepts Beretta 84 10 and 13 round mags, so for all practical purposes the BDA 380 IS a Beretta.
 
That's easy

The Kel Tec P3AT! Fits in the pocket without screaming GUN (especially jeans pockets)!! Unlike ANY, and I do mean ANY 9x19 or 9x18. Other than that, I cannot justify its existence personally. But the KT is enough of a reason, to be sure.
 
I'm with you, Futo!

The .380 in a large package will certainly fill a niche for a few disabled or extremely recoil-sensitive individuals, but for most of us it's all about dropping a gun in the jeans pocket.
The .380 is simply the largest caliber that will fill the bill, and therefore the best choice for many people.

I honestly don't see any point to larger framed .380's for healthy individuals. I own a PPK clone and have had many other like sized pieces pass through my hands over the years. They're fun, but they don't make any sense for carry. If you want something that large, go with a nine or a .38 snubby.

Keith
 
One thing that has not been mentioned in this debate (at least among the Kel-Tec) crowd is rimlock.

I had pretty much dismissed this until a few weeks ago. I had taken my wifes KT P32 out of her purse :banghead: , for cleaning. When I attempted to clear it for cleaning and lubrication. It extracted the chambered round fine, but the top round in the mag was locked up so completely that I had to drop the magazine and disassemble the mag in order to unload it. It would have been impossible to clear this malfunction any other way and would led to a level 4 malfunction if this gun had ever needed to be used. This is the main reason I purchased the P3AT as soon as I did. The "rimless" .380 is not susceptible to rimlock like the semi-rimmed .32 is. Any ballistic (which I do believe to be considerable) advantage is a bonus.

I realize that the KTs are the only pistols with this history, but they are tops in their niche to my way of thinking.....

NAA- if I want to carry something this heavy in my pocket, I will go with my SW 642 and 5 shots of .38 spl. If they would ever develop an alloy framed version at the price point of the 642, I am there with money in hand.

J frame in .38- not everyone has the hand strength to pull these triggers reliably and accurately, or to control the recoil well even with the lightest loads

Personally I feel that the best compromise would be a SW alloy framed revolver in .32 HR mag, but with a better ammo selection. I know that Taurus makes a LW snub in .32 HR, but the SW's are a little more compact and easier to find 'smiths for.

FWIW- I realize that rimlock is only an issue for hp ammunition in the P32. WIth fmj, I have recorded no malfs of any kind.
Mino
 
Best .380 SD ammo type?

What's the general opinion on how best to feed a short bbl .380? Some favor FMJ but Keith's firearmstactical link only listed JHPs. I would think FMJ for penetration would be the way to go, since a shallow wound isn't likely to stop anyone no matter what it has expanded to.
 
That .380 data is showing 6 1/2 to 7 1/2 inches with various hollowpoints with good expansion. That's deep enough, I think, considering that they are making a big hole.
When they don't expand they are going something like eleven inches which in effect, is a FMJ.

I think you get the best of both worlds with a .380 hollowpoint. If it expands, great! If it doesn't, well not too bad either.

Keith
 
Sounds good, Keith, but there's a critical data component missing that has to be considered before drawing any conclusions. If the pistol in your pocket is a P-3AT whose barrel is very short, the test data for a longer barreled .380 can be very deceiving.

The shooting system you're carrying consisting of gun and ammo has to be tested to determine the ballistic data because barrel length becomes more critical the shorter they get.

IMO, the gelatin tests are more deceiving with the lower total energy of mouse guns with regard to JHP versus FMJ bullets.

Odds are that any bullet you fire in a SD situation is going to encounter bone before it gets to something vital. Expansion is great once that vital area has been penetrated, but it works against you before that point.
 
a critical data component missing that has to be considered before drawing any conclusions. If the pistol in your pocket is a P-3AT whose barrel is very short...
Click to expand...

I don't know anything about the P-3AT. My Mustangs barrel is 2 3/4" and some of the .380 data is from 3" barrelled weapons. I'm not going to quibble about a 1/4".
And I'm not going to shoot an attacker just once. He's going to have multiple seven inch deep, half an inch wide holes (or eleven inch deep, .355 holes if it doesn't expand...). And I will continue to place those holes until he falls down or goes away.

In most cases, I don't think even the best .380 is going to expand. The gelatin (flawed or not) reveals that much. When fired through even denim, they plug up and fail to expand - but penetrate eleven inches (from a 3" barrel), which is plenty!

We're getting into the fall now anyways, so I've got my aluminum compact .45 back in service. The .380 can go back on the shelf until tee shirt and jeans weather returns.

Keith
 
The P3AT barrel is 2.75 inches. The ones the firearmstactical data are based on are 3", 3.25, and 4" and there don't seem to be great differences in the energy of the bullet (without more data analysis than I care to do) so barrel length doesn't matter. It looks like the hollow points won't expand in anything thicker than jello anyway so they probably are no worse for penetration than ball.

According to Remington's website the .380 loads (around 95 grains) average 190 foot pounds at the muzzle at 950 fps. The .32 auto is also around 950 fps but at 71 grains is only 129 foot pounds. The .380 looks like a better choice to me for a mouse gun since it seems to penetrate well enough with ball or plugged HP.

For comparison a 9 mm is roughly 200 fps faster and about twice the energy at the muzzle, but in a much bigger gun.

Does anyone know what the energy is for something to put those in perspective? Like what's the foot pounds of a softball pitch?
 
Cause I at the time am dow it one hand (long story) and my regular carry gun is a snubby 45 Colt quite a hand full for a injured hand. I will go back to a real gun when I heal but as foor now I own a small 380 and it is far better than spit balls.
 
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