Justify the .380's continued existance - please-

[Leaky Waders]

i don't 'concealed carry'...but when i open carry i pick my m-84 .380 because

1) out of my pistols it holds the most rounds per magazine...therefore I'm not fumbling for extra magazines etc if I ever need it.

2) i'm usually using it for travelling...if my truck hits a deer...my .380 will put it out of its misery...of course, if my truck hits a deer - the damn thing will get a free ride in the back to a processor.

3) i can shoot my .380 well - actually i can shoot most of my pistols pretty well - but the .380 is the 'funnest' of them all - probably because of less reloading of magazines = less thumb soreness.

4) the pistol just fits my hand good and is a natural pointer. it's also small enough for the dash.

5) the pistol model i own is reknown for its reliability.

6) hmmm this is where the revolver debate ends...the sixth round versus more in the .380...

7) extra round.

8) extra round.

9) extra round.

10) extra round...keep counting bad guy...

11) extra round.

12) extra round.

13) extra round.

14) possibly extra round if it is loaded w/ a full mag...do you feel lucky?

my two cents,

LW

 

[Roadrash]

My Kel Tec .32 is just like my American Express.....Don't leave home without it.

I was considering getting the P3AT but I now thinking about picking up a PT-111 Titanium 9 mm, for the winter months and for a little more penetration.

 

[Blackhawk]

Caliburn wrote:

...so barrel length doesn't matter.

Wow! That's a GIANT leap to a conclusion, but it's totally non-sequitur.

All you need to do to see for yourself what happens when the barrel length is truly at the minimum is to cook off a securely held round aimed at a target like a bunch of wet newspapers. Give it some distance so the excess powder doesn't destroy your target.

On the other end of the spectrum, look at the data from a 9mm rifle and you'll see that the FPE is less than that from a shorter barrel. That's because the sweet spot for barrel length and any round is a function is when the expanding gas pressure falls to where the bullet is no longer being accelerated. If rifling is still ahead of the bullet, it will slow down.

That's also why a severely downloaded round (as in primer only -- no powder) is liable to leave the bullet stuck in the barrel.

 

[Gunner45]

Because I love my Colt Mustang Pockelite! I just grab it when I grab my car keys as I head out the door. I haven't come across a 9mm compact that I can hide in my front jeans pocket. I can hide my Mustang there.

And at 12.5 oz empty, you all most forget you have it with you. As far as the performance of the .380, well the Corbon 90 grainers and the Golden Saber 102's that we fired through two layers of denim covering a block of 10% balictic gel mushroomed perfectly.

Gunner45

 

[Kentucky Rifle]

I've got my Colt Mustang Pocketlite in a shark skin beltslide holster right now. I've replaced the recoil spring with a one-piece, one pound heavier Wolff. Plus, I've got a SM&A titanium guide rod installed instead of the stock black plastic rod. Unbeliveably light guide rod. The pistol is so light that I don't even have to use a gun belt. Just a wide belt. Nice. And, as always, stoked with RBCD Ammuniton. (It was my testing in this very Mustang that convinced me that RBCD ammunition was the way to go. I had to blow away a corned beef brisket, but it was worth it just to see what RBCD did. )

KR

 

[King]

As noted by a couple of others, I think the benefit of the .380 is related to the expectation that the firearms that they go into offer a level of concealabilty not generally found with a lot of the larger calibers including the 9mm. For me that's important on a day to day carry basis.

It also occurs to me also that the folks who frequent this forum are probably a different kind of animal than the average conceal carry licensee walking the street. From what I can tell, a lot of CHL's end up (after a time) leaving their hardware at home or in the glove box of their car because their carry gun is too large or too heavy or inconvenient to carry.

In many ways, a smaller .380 might fill the bill nicely. Underpowered? Maybe so. But, I'm pretty certain that I don't want to get hit by one and I'm pretty certain that they'll turn out the lights if it comes right down to it. A .380 in the hand beats a 1911 setting at home in the night stand.

Carry a .380? Think bullet placement.....

My humble opinion of course and is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[SirVette]

Accuracy
The fixed barrel blowback .380 design allows a very accurate pistol that is small & has enough power.

 

[David4516]

Because .380 ACP (and 9mm Makarov, it's big brother) has several good points:

1: It fills the gap between .32 and 9mm Luger

2: Control. In compact and sub-compact pistols, the .380 is much more controlable

3: There are alot of AWSOME .380 and 9mm Mak pistols out there that are reliable and cheap.

4: Pistols in this caliber keep getting smaller and smaller, and as they do so the caliber will gain popularity.

 

[Gary A]

I don't quite understand why if the advent of small-frame, five shot .357s has not rendered the small-frame .38 snubby obsolete, why the advent of very small 9mm's would automatically obsolete quality and proven .380s. Personally, I would rather have a proven Sig P230/232 than either of the polymer/aluminum lower-priced small 9s that get a lot of press. It's simply a better handgun, IMO. The Glock 26 is very nice, although thick as a brick. The Kahr series are impressive but that is only one maker and I can't see one brand obsoleting a class. The steel Kahrs are heavy. The polymer Kahrs are still having problems reported from time to time on the web. Some don't like striker-fired weapons with light triggers. The Rohrbaugh looks to be a niche item, if it is ever seen. The Rami may never be imported. Steel Kahrs, Smith 39xx series, Sig 239s, all very nice pistols but larger than even largish .380s, at least in weight, if not always in dimensions. I really like the small 9s but can certainly see instances where someone would choose the .380 based on those factors and on the perceived need and level of threat and whether the pistol was "enough gun" for its intended purpose. And, like has been said, the same downsizing technology that has produced small 9s is now producing even smaller .380s. Lastly, some pistols are so well executed that they are worth owning whether or not they are used for defense, e.g. the CZ83, the Sig P232. I even have an Interarms PPK that has been flawless and very accurate from day one. The "obsolete" SAA Colt .45 is as popular today as ever, maybe more so. Anyway, as long as people buy them, they will be built and sold. The marketplace decides in the end. These discussions are really kinda funny. IF someone decides to carry a weapon and they do it "right", no one is ever going to know a) if they are carrying or b) what they are carrying, so the discussion is moot.

 

[Keith]

I don't quite understand why if the advent of small-frame, five shot .357s has not rendered the small-frame .38 snubby obsolete, why the advent of very small 9mm's would automatically obsolete quality and proven .380s.

There really is a point where power becomes a drawback in small guns.

When you get down to a 2 or 3 inch barrel, how much of that powder is turning into bullet velocity, and how much is turning into muzzle flash? How much extra velocity do you really get and is that extra power worth the loss of night vision at a critical moment?

Bullet placement really does trump caliber. When you shoot a gun at night (you do realize that most self defense shootings happen at night, right?) you don't want an enormous muzzle flash blinding you so your second, third and fourth shots go astray.

If you are going to carry a powerful cartridge in a small handgun, you had better shoot that gun in the dark and see if you can deal with that - see if you can still see your target after the first shot...

We had this discussion on another thread a while back and some people claimed they had shot their miniature hand cannons in the dark and had no loss of night vision. I had my doubts about that and even challenged people to try it and post their results. I had no takers.
People prefer to practice their self defense shooting in wholly unrealistic settings - on well lit ranges with their buddies...

It's all a little silly! If you want to know how your gun/cartridge combo is going to work, you had better try it in the dark under the conditions you'll need it. It may be that with your particular light sensitivity, a straight armed stance (gun well away from face) and a particular load, your .357 snubbie (or whatever) will work out just fine for you in the dark.

But it's better to find out in advance...

Keith

 

[jercamp45]

Justify?

1. Some people cannot have larger rounds.
2. some people cannot handle larger rounds
3. gun makers keep making guns in it
4. ammo makers keep making rounds for it
5. people keep buying it
6. gun makers keep making smaller guns for it

The aforementioned pocket light Mustang is a sweet .380. And hides better than my airweight Jay frame, which is a .38 by the way. I would rather have the controlability on my second round than deal with the extra recoil of the magnum round.

The Beretta and Sig .380 are nice too, though a bit large. But we all have to make our choice as to what we will rely on. The 380 is not my choice, I have only owned a few(AMT Backup 20 years ago, steel Mustang, if Colt introduced the Pocketlite 'Stang, I would add one for special purpose duty) but decided the Jay way the way to go for deep conceal/BUG for me.
My LW Officer's in a Milt Sparks VM2H is most comforting and can be (and is) carried 95 percent of the time. Anything less is for extreme concealment/BUG.
Jercamp45

 

[Haycreek]

The 380 ACP

MAKE MINE A CZ 83
A fixed barrel, 3.8 inches long. As accurate as a good 1911, but light recoil and the fastest triple tap [on the bullseye] of any of my center fire pistolas.
Indeed a very good handgun.

 

[M58]

Now that I have a Kahr PM9, I see no reason to own a .380!

 

[w00dg0blin]

The reason I believe the 380 will stick around is--shot placement.

A 380 to the brain pan will have the same results of a 45, 9mm, or even a 22 for that matter.

Shot placement. It doesn't get any easier than that.

 

[SirVette]

M58

Many of us see no reason to support the moonies & their false "teaching" in any way!
This is a 380 topic.

 

[Marko Kloos]

If you only buy guns from people whose theology you don't consider "false", then your choices will be mighty limited. I know I wouldn't be able to do business with any gun shop in this town if I had a policy of not supporting Christians.

Personally, I don't care whether they worship the Great Pumpkin, as long as they make a decent product for a decent price.

But hey, that's your prerogative. it's a free country. Just check and make sure that the gun brands in your safe are made by theologically compatible folks...

 

[M58]

Christians are Pagans.
And thought police.


(P.S. Marko was too nice.)
(But I really like his Sig line.)
Signed: J.A.P.

 

[Mad Man]

Many of us see no reason to support the moonies & their fase "teaching" in any way!

Should those of us who aren't Mormon give up our 1911s and Hi-Powers?

 

[tiberius]

Many of us see no reason to support the moonies & their fase "teaching" in any way!

Gimme a friggin break.

Who was it that said something like "Whoever thinks they are on the only path up the mountian, isn't even on the mountain?"..... Seiously, what's the real quote here?

 

[AZ Heat]

Mormon?

What does being Mormon have to do with anything? Did I miss something? That flew right over my head.

 

[tiberius]

JMB was a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints

 

[AZ Heat]

So am I....

I'm LDS (Mormon) too but still don't get it. Oh well.
Back to the subject... I've also heard that the Winchester silvertip .32ACP is very comparable to .380ACP. Is there truth to this or is it bull? I carry the Seecamp as my backup and when I can't carry my .45 1911. I know they've been talking about coming out with a Seecamp .380 for years but who knows.

 

[tiberius]

but still don't get it. Oh well.

I don't get why anyone would be concerned about this either, I was just clueing you in on the reference.

 

[mini14jac]

John Moses Browning, designer of many great guns was a Mormon.
I love his guns, but I go to a different church.
I still go to the movies, but I don't agree with the politics, (or spiritual beliefs) of most of the people making them.
I drive a Japanese truck, but don't agree with a lot of things that make up Japanese society.

SirVette,
If you can get by with only supporting the people who agee with you in 100% of everything that's great.
It's not very practical for most of us.
And I believe the topic is, "Why is the .380 still around when there are other choices, and other calibers that may do the job."

To get back on topic:
I love my Kahr PM9. I think it is very close to a Colt .380 in size, but the aluminum guns are lighter.
It is smaller and lighter than many .380 guns.
I carry in a front pocket, and in most pants, the Kahr works great.
When, for whatever reason, the PM9 is too bulky, the Keltec .380 just disappears in the same pocket.

As far as shooting in the dark, my range closes at sundown, and most indoor ranges don't allow shooting with the lights off.
(It's not very safe.)
It's not easy or practical for most of us to practice like that.
But, the next time I'm in the woods after dark, I'll give it a try.

I've also heard that the Winchester silvertip .32ACP is very comparable to .380ACP. Is there truth to this or is it bull?

AZ Heat,
I think this comes from the M&S "One shot stop" data, but I think you have to take their stats with a grain of salt.
I do think the performance of the two is very close.
I chose to go with the .380 because of the bigger bullet.

Now that cooler weather is here, I really want to start carrying my S&W .45.
I do believe that bigger is better.

 

[New_comer]

Justify the .380's continued existence - please-

I can only think of one thing: 'coz there's still a LOT of guns chambered in it.