Kaboom got me thinking about ammo and where it is sold...

[SilentStalker]

As you know we had a member with a AR15 recently that had a Kaboom in which case it appears to be sabotage of some sort as everyone is under agreement that whatever it was that was loaded in the shell with the bullet and powder had to be placed there. So, I got to thinking, it might not have been the manufacturer of the ammo at all. I mean if you go into a retail store like say, Academy, the ammo is just laying out on a shelf in the gun section where anyone has access to open it up and look at it, etc. My point being here is that what if someone was very nefarious and took a round out and dropped one of their sabotaged rounds in the box with the rest of the good ammo. You would never know most likely from its outward appearance. This is very bad and I am not saying everyone would do that, but what if they did. Having it out in the open on the shelf like that, IMO is a bad idea. They should at least have it behind a counter to where you have to ask for it but that is just my opinion. What if some rogue anti was to start doing that to where ammo was sold across the country? That would be really bad. I know that the Academy, WalMart, Bass Pro, and a ton of other places around me has the ammo out to where anyone could access the boxes. Anyways it was just a thought, one that I hope I am wrong on.

 

[Gun Geezer]

I have opened several boxes that had a few cartridges of the WRONG caliber. 9mm in a box of 45 ACP for example.

I've opened others at home that were short 5 rounds out of the middle of the box! What's up with that? I doubt the factory did it.

What's with some people. A KABOOM is not funny.

 

[Ramone]

while it wouldn't be any help if a nefarious person constructed a sabotage round and slipped it in, I usually do check every box I buy (not bulk packs, obviously) at the counter.

One clerk at my LGS always was cranky about it, till one box turned up with three missing rounds- now he checks them for every purchase!

 

[burrhead]

I’ve got the tinfoil. Anybody else need a hat?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You know, there are gun folks who argue that NDs at gun shows are because the antis had inflitrated the gun show and were slipping live rounds into guns. The notion of sabotage is pretty unlikely.

As you know we had a member with a AR15 recently that had a Kaboom in which case it appears to be sabotage of some sort as everyone is under agreement that whatever it was that was loaded in the shell with the bullet and powder had to be placed there

Since you provided no link to the event we have no idea what you are talking about, but to assume it was sabotage just because there was something wrong with the cartridge is a stretch. As noted by GG, the ammo makers create plenty of their own problems with boxing, labellng, etc. There have been numerous recalls of ammo that was misloaded and some of which had apparently caused KBs or had the potential for KBs. I have gotten the wrong rounds in a box of .45 when ordered from Natchez. Apparently, they came from the factor that way because they were in a sealed case from the factory. I have gotten upside down bullets loaded in the case, one missing primer, upside primers, crushed case edge, tilted bullets in cases, etc., none of which were purchased at a retail establishment where a nefarious sabotuer could clandestinely do evil to cause me, the end user, problems.

Given that problems happen at the manufacturing end and happen with some regularity, to claim sabotage validly, one would have to rule out the problem could have happened at the factory unintentionally.

If it happened at the factor intentionally, then where you buy your ammo won't matter one iota.

 

[230RN]

See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Eldest_Son

Sabotaged ammo salted in the enemy's supplies.

Why is it so impossible?

Terry, 230RN

 

[SilentStalker]

Here is the link to the latest kaboom story I was referencing:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=672721

I’ve got the tinfoil. Anybody else need a hat?

—Originally posted by: burrhead

You can make remarks like that all you want, but you are pretty naive to believe that there are not people out there that would like nothing more than to cause you or others harm.

Since you provided no link to the event we have no idea what you are talking about, but to assume it was sabotage just because there was something wrong with the cartridge is a stretch. As noted by GG, the ammo makers create plenty of their own problems with boxing, labellng, etc. There have been numerous recalls of ammo that was misloaded and some of which had apparently caused KBs or had the potential for KBs. I have gotten the wrong rounds in a box of .45 when ordered from Natchez. Apparently, they came from the factor that way because they were in a sealed case from the factory. I have gotten upside down bullets loaded in the case, one missing primer, upside primers, crushed case edge, tilted bullets in cases, etc., none of which were purchased at a retail establishment where a nefarious sabotuer could clandestinely do evil to cause me, the end user, problems.

Given that problems happen at the manufacturing end and happen with some regularity, to claim sabotage validly, one would have to rule out the problem could have happened at the factory unintentionally.

If it happened at the factor intentionally, then where you buy your ammo won't matter one iota.

—Originally posted by: Double Naught Spy

You sir are missing my point. In fact, you are just helping my argument. I am not saying things cannot go wrong in the factory, but if that much can go wrong at the factory in a closed environment, then why would you make the ammo susceptible to even more things by placing it in an environment where it is wide open to have more things done to it by nefarious people/groups? That is my point. By placing it in an environment where anyone can mess with it then you increase your chances of something happening to those rounds exponentially. Again, I do not see why this is a farfetched idea. Some of you may ask why anyone would do such a thing and I urge you to ask yourself why anyone would do any of the nefarious acts that have been committed since the beginning of time. See my response to burrhead.

Now as far as ammo being sealed in plastic goes, I sure would like to know where you buy your ammo because I have never seen individual wrapped boxes of ammo sealed in plastic. The closest I have seen to that is ammo sealed in crates and ammo cans, but never small boxes in plastic. However, your point raises an excellent question, "Why isn't individual boxes of ammo wrapped in plastic?" I mean there was a time when you could go to the store and buy products right of the shelf with no tamper seal of any kind on them, but those days are long gone. There was also a time when everyone knew each other, America was prosperous, most people could be trusted, you could leave your doors unlocked, pray freely in schools, etc. but again society and those times seem to have all but disappeared, unfortunately. I only seen a few days of this myself as I am still relatively young at 30 years old. Nowadays everything is put in plastic for your safety and society now has that mindset. Today is nothing like the days of yesteryear. I mean how many of you buy any food items that have been opened or are not sealed, excluding food you eat at a restaraunt? Are you seeing my point here? It seems to me like it would be more wise to seal ammo up and keep it out of the reach of everyone for everyones safety, much more so than sealing a toy or something like that. Again, I have no idea how this is farfetched. I sure would like to know where you guys live because obviously you guys live in a much more peaceful/glamorous area than I do.

See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Eldest_Son

Sabotaged ammo salted in the enemy's supplies.

Why is it so impossible?

Terry, 230RN

Exactly. I am sure I can find more examples as well if one was so inclined. Maybe the ones that think this is farfetched idea should be wearing tinfoil hats.

 

[Ignition Override]

One guy who has attended multiple shows as a seller suspects that it really has happened, and is caused by antis or even more unstable people.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Good link Terry...I wonder what happened to the "other half" of the doctored rounds from the war?

 

[Trent]

Tin-foil hat stuff until someone gets hurt.

http://www.pjstar.com/news/x1365675321/Two-men-shot-at-Bloomington-gun-show

The vendor in this case wouldn't keep live rounds in guns (he's a well known local guy, responsible). He wasn't using chamber flags, which *I* always used to indicate a clear chamber in the guns on my tables.

Lesson learned; trust no one.

Pretty much EVERYONE in this area uses colored chamber flags now, or locked cabinets, or some other method of exercising additional control over what's on the table.

I would not put it past some sick individuals to tamper with ammunition.

 

[beatledog7]

If you were in charge of an anti movement, what tactics and strategies would you prohibit?

Environmentalists spike trees that are marked for cutting, knowing that the saw operator will likely be injured, so why wouldn't an anti-gunner "spike" a chamber or slip a rigged round into a box of ammo?

 

[SaxonPig]

SilentStalker- Has the ATF been called? If you truly believe ammo was tampered with and made into an explosive device that violates a number of state and federal laws.

 

[CDW4ME]

Buy some primers, brass, bullets, power and handload, then you control the quality of your ammo.

 

[230RN]

Silent stalker observed:

Exactly. I am sure I can find more examples as well if one was so inclined. Maybe the ones that think this is farfetched idea should be wearing tinfoil hats.

.
Bingo.

It's time for that tin foil hat meme to go the way of the dodo bird. To my mind it's just a cheap and easy way to look "smart."

But it ain't.

I hate to throw the "age card," but I've seen too many nefarious schemes come to light after people thought "it can't happen here."

GCA68 is a prime example of the smart-alecky "pooh-pooh" attitude crippling opposition. I was there when almost every gunnie around thought it would never pass: "It can't happen here, We've got the second amendment to keep that kind of law from passing. Pooh-pooh."

Riiiiight.

As my sig line on another board says, "Eternal vigilance is not clinical paranoia."

Terry, 230RN

 

[SilentStalker]

We could all reload but this is not feasible for everyone. I ^^^do not really have the time to reload. I really ^^^do not have the time to get out and shoot often and not near as much as I should.

 

[Trent]

SS:

I wouldn't be afraid of buying ammo for fear it's been tampered with. Factories do enough dumb crap on their own.

(Google "factory double-charge" or "factory squib" some day, or hell, for that matter, "ammunition recall" - been plenty of them over the years)

You're still far more likely to get a dud from the factory than you are a tampered round. By many orders of magnitude. I've been shooting 25 years and I've NEVER heard of a tampered round, or even the possibility of a tampered round, until this week; and that incident you spoke of on here was using 10 year old ammunition with a lengthy "chain of custody".

No, dude, I'd relax - buy ammo, shoot ammo, don't think about it.

Just learn what a squib is and how to address it, if you don't already know, because by and large, an obstructed bore is the most dangerous issue you're likely to ever face target shooting (this is assuming all safety rules are properly followed).

 

[230RN]

Trent said,

You're still far more likely to get a dud from the factory than you are a tampered round.

As the saying goes, "It's not the odds. It's the stakes."

And it's the concept that fervent, dedicated, self-righteous @sshats can do it that we're dealing with. Who'da thunk anyone would burn down a whole $12M ski resort just to demonstrate a point about ecology?

Not me. Not you. "Why that's just tin-foil hattery!"

But someone went and did it.

Terry, 230RN

REF:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-12-14-vail-arsons_x.htm

The Vail arson focused national attention on radical environmentalists who ascribed their attacks to the secretive Earth Liberation Front and Animal Liberation Front, characterized by the FBI as the nation's top domestic terrorism threats.

 

[45_auto]

In the referenced incident, the owner reported that he had the ammo for years, and it had been stored in ammo cans since he bought it.

The ammo company reported a 125 grain, 1.355" slug stuck in the barrel.

There is no such bullet available for the .223 or 5.56.

If it was sabotoge, it was a custom machined bullet loaded deeply enough in a 5.56 case to allow it to fit through the magazine and chamber. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through for something that could be just as easily accomplished by substituting a pistol powder into the cartridge, as done by project Eldest Son in Vietnam.

You have 2 options on finding the "long" bullet sabotoge:

1) Individually weigh every round you buy, or

2) Pull every round you buy apart and examine the bullet to make sure it's not too long.

Even doing that wouldn't find the powder substitution if you used a ball pistol powder that looks like the ball powder typically used in 5.56 ammo.

Since the ammo in the incident was purchased years ago, and I haven't heard of any other similar incidents in the past few years, I'm not quite ready to put on my tinfoil hat yet.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Sabotaged ammo salted in the enemy's supplies.

Why is it so impossible?

Terry, 230RN

Who said it was impossible? You buying your ammo in Vietnam?

You sir are missing my point. In fact, you are just helping my argument.

Not really. You don't have any evidence of this happening at a store, but problems do happen at the factories somewhat regularly. They get posted here. Plus, SS believes the problem happened at the factory.

Not buying from a store won't protect you one iota when the problem, intentional or not, occurs at the factory.

Exactly. I am sure I can find more examples as well if one was so inclined.

Then do it. Sort of like claiming your daughter's head could have been blown off, which is wasn't, claiming that you can find examples, but don't, really doesn't count. If you are making the claim, provide the support.

 

[Reloadron]

Now as far as ammo being sealed in plastic goes, I sure would like to know where you buy your ammo because I have never seen individual wrapped boxes of ammo sealed in plastic.

Never say never:





Maybe just a little off topic but let's say you head out to your club or range for some rifle shooting with your AR in a .223 chambering. It's early morning and to your surprise what do you find:



Every cartridge bears the same head stamp including the 10 unfired rounds. So have the ammunition Gods smiled down upon you? What do you do?

A, I assume the Ammo Gods have bestowed a great gift upon me and lock and load. Someone else forgot their stuff so I make out! Yippie!

B. I dump the case, empty brass and loaded ammunition in an appropriate disposal can on the range and begin my day of shooting.

C. I keep the cool free plastic case and dump all else in a range can for proper disposal and begin my day of shooting.

Personally both B and C sound good to me. While this may sound incredibly stupid there are no shortage of shooters that would opt for A and attempt to shoot the stuff.

While certain things may not be totally preventable within reason there are plenty of steps we can take to make sure we are doing all we can to prevent an ugly thing from happening.


Ron

 

[BemidjiDweller]

If it were me, I would wait until I was about to leave so that the proper owner would have time to come and get it if they wanted. If noone claimed it, I would take it and pull them and dump the powder an reuse the brass and bullets if both checked out.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Why limit it to ammo? Why should ammo be singled out? What about bottles of lamp oil? What about batteries? Cans of sterno? Heck, what about all the food at supermarkets? A lot of products can be sabotaged to make them dangerous. Do we, as gun owners, really need to act like the anti-gun groups and single out something like this just because it is associated with guns?

 

[beatledog7]

Remember tainted Tylenol?

Re: Post #20. I wouldn't shoot them. I'd take them home if they remained unclaimed, pull them, and reload the brass.

The powder would go in my container of "junk" powder which is really just powder I can't 100% identify or which I can't be sure is uncontaminated. Someday I'll need it for plants.

I'd have to examine the bullets to know if I want to reload them or not.

 

[Ky Larry]

Are there people out there who will hurt strangers for social, political, economic reasond? Are there psychos in society? Is there a lunatic fringe? Do a Google search on George Metesky, James William Lewis,Ted Kaczyynski.Charles Manson, and Mohamed Atta. Then you decide.I don't know if ammo has ever been tampered with but the people who would do it are definately out there.

 

[rodregier]

There are also manufacturer recalls issued for some production lots of ammunition. Some of those are a result of field reports from end users. Someone can be the unlucky first "discoverer".