Kaboom got me thinking about ammo and where it is sold...

[Big_E]

Sounds like a possible CSI episode.

 

[45_auto]

Maybe just a little off topic but let's say you head out to your club or range for some rifle shooting with your AR in a .223 chambering. It's early morning and to your surprise what do you find:

Interesting that the option of just leaving it alone didn't even occur to you. I'm not so hard up for plastic cases, 223 brass, or 223 bullets that it would have even occured to me to do anything other than shove it off to one side and leave it there.

 

[zorro45]

This thread has given me a super idea for an "alternative ending" the next time a "Fast and Furious" scheme is put into action, "Fast and Furious + Project Eldest Son" the big boom will show where the bad guys are located.

 

[Reloadron]

Why limit it to ammo? Why should ammo be singled out? What about bottles of lamp oil? What about batteries? Cans of sterno? Heck, what about all the food at supermarkets? A lot of products can be sabotaged to make them dangerous. Do we, as gun owners, really need to act like the anti-gun groups and single out something like this just because it is associated with guns?

That in part is where I was going.

The Chicago Tylenol murders occurred when seven people died after taking pain-relief medicine capsules that had been poisoned. The poisonings, code-named TYMURS by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, took place in late 1982 in the Chicago area of the United States.

These poisonings involved Extra-Strength Tylenol capsules, manufactured by McNeil Consumer Healthcare, which had been laced with potassium cyanide. The incidents led to reforms in the packaging of over-the-counter substances and to federal anti-tampering laws. The case remains unsolved and no suspects have been charged. A $100,000 reward, offered by Johnson & Johnson, McNeil's parent company, for the capture and conviction of the "Tylenol Killer", has never been claimed.

The above is a good example which led to changes in packaging. Where does it end? It doesn't end. My example of ammunition found open on a range being an example. There is no way to 100% prevent things like poison Tylenol or for that matter intentionally sabotaged ammunition.

You can't live in fear of everything and run around paranoid 24/7 unless you want an early death. All anyone can do is exercise good judgement.

Just for our Navy LCDR here is a good one. I work within the bowels of the Navy Nuclear Propulsion Program under DoE and DoD. It was maybe a few years back a simple security experiment was performed. Several DVDs and thumb drive devices were randomly scattered around the area outside buildings with secure networks. The disk and thumb drives were labeled "Classified" and similar text. The disk were rigged to "phone home".

Within 24 hours something like 80% of the disk and thumb drives did just that. They phoned home across what was a secure network. Meaning that people actually dragged those disk to their secure network workstations and shoved them in a machine curious as to what was on them. People who should have known better!

The moral of the story is you can't make anything foolproof as fools are ingenious people. Believe me a number of people in my little ammunition example would lock and load.

Ron

 

[Reloadron]

OK so I came up short with the multiple choice. However, you would not lock and load the stuff would you? You made that clear. So how many people would lock and load?

Ron

 

[beatledog7]

Interesting that the option of just leaving it alone didn't even occur to you.

Seems to me, Reloadron's thought experiment was not meant to have us consider whether we are opportunists, but whether we are sufficiently wary of unknown ammo. It did that just fine without the need for the "leave it be; it ain't yours" option.

I'm not so hard up for plastic cases, 223 brass, or 223 bullets...

Nor are most us---today. But if faced with real shortages, would our response to Reloadron's thought experiment change?

 

[Fishslayer]

You know, there are gun folks who argue that NDs at gun shows are because the antis had inflitrated the gun show and were slipping live rounds into guns. The notion of sabotage is pretty unlikely.

I don't find that notion farfetched at all. Maybe not even antis. There are a lot of really sick people in this world.

All four rules.
All the time.

 

[1911 guy]

While I do agree that most of our ammo issues will arise from screw-ups at manufacturing, I also have no problem believing that there are idividuals both capable and willing to sabotage anything, either for an agenda or just for their own amusement.

As an old Chief used to tell us, "If you're not paranoid, you're not paying attention".

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

Reloadron (post 20):

I don't know how to copy your pic of the American Ammunition, but I have plenty of it, and it isn't what I would call "sealed" in plastic; those are very easily opened & closed with no safety seal (unless they've changed things since I last bought some), and therefore, easily tampered with.

Sam

 

[arizona98tj]

Why limit it to ammo? Why should ammo be singled out? What about bottles of lamp oil? What about batteries? Cans of sterno? Heck, what about all the food at supermarkets? A lot of products can be sabotaged to make them dangerous. Do we, as gun owners, really need to act like the anti-gun groups and single out something like this just because it is associated with guns?

Exactly.....

In May, some jerk was making flashlight bombs and leaving them to be found by some unsuspecting person in Glendale, AZ.

 

[Reloadron]

Reloadron (post 20):

I don't know how to copy your pic of the American Ammunition, but I have plenty of it, and it isn't what I would call "sealed" in plastic; those are very easily opened & closed with no safety seal (unless they've changed things since I last bought some), and therefore, easily tampered with.

Sam

Hi Sam

My post as to "sealed in plastic" was more tongue in cheek in response to SilentStalkers comment:

Now as far as ammo being sealed in plastic goes, I sure would like to know where you buy your ammo because I have never seen individual wrapped boxes of ammo sealed in plastic.

No, the packages are not by any stretch tamper resistant like Tylenol has become. However, the contents are clearly visible. For example members mentioned factory ammunition being upside down or cartridges of the wrong caliber in the box. Those would be noticeable. Sorry if I caused any confusion as to interpreting the "sealed". I might also add while the packaging is interesting as to seeing the ammunition do not drop one of those packages. You will quickly discover that 50 cartridges will in fact travel in 50 different directions.

Marketing factory ammunition other than Military Surplus is likely a competitive business. I have no clue what the added cost of adding a tamper resistant sticker to a box of ammunition would cost? Apparently the ammunition makers have not seen a need to do so.

So Sam I agree that the packaging is far from tamper proof it does provide a visual of what is in the package.

Ron

 

[Reloadron]

Exactly.....

In May, some jerk was making flashlight bombs and leaving them to be found by some unsuspecting person in Glendale, AZ.

Another very good example. I remember that. Most people will pick it up, assume the flashlight Gods (similar to the ammunition Gods on the range) have blessed them. KaBoom!

Leave some DVD disk labeled "Naked Pictures of Julie" laying around. How many people will pick them up and can't wait to shove them in a computer?

Ron

 

[BADUNAME37]

I had some utility company employees who needed to go into my basement. I didn't think to watch them every single second, then a day or two later, I noticed, what looked like some pistol powder round flakes on the basement bathroom utility sink back. I showed my wife, as the powder for my reloading bench is nearby. She said it was probably dirt from the garden. Now, the sink is not perfectly clean to begin with, it is a utility sink that gets used as such.

So, it could be something other than powder.
It could be one of the guys is into reloading as well and took a bit of my powder with him while he was there.
It could be someone who knows about powders poured one container into another container.

So, I got to thinking. Do I want to trust the open containers I currently have? When I look inside them, it all looks good to me, however, if there was bullseye mixed in with something else, perhaps I wouldn't know it, that is until the moment I pull the trigger. Some people are against guns. I try to weigh out in my mind, what is the best thing for me to do? If I throw out the open containers, we are talking, perhaps $100 to about $160 at most. I have more of each powder in unopened containers that should still be sealed. And, lately, I haven't been reloading much, as I haven't been shooting much.

In the end, I think whatever makes me most comfortable with my loads is what I should do. I suppose I could open those new containers and compare what I see inside those with what is in the opened containers of the same powder, they are most likely all the same batch numbers as I purchased each powder from the same places and around the same time.

 

[Trent]

When I have utility workers, or any outside workers, in the house (swapped out a furnace recently), I watch them like a damn hawk. Even though one of them was my neighbor down the street, happening to do his real day job in my basement, I watch them like a hawk.

I trust no one, other than myself. And I sometimes don't even trust myself, because I'm human, and humans all have faulty wiring somewhere.

 

[BADUNAME37]

Trent,
Thank you for the lesson that I needed to read!

I am not going to take any chances!
What is a hundred dollars, or even two hundred dollars if it means that it ""might"" save a gun from blowing up in my hands, injuring me and anyone else around me?

How can one even put a dollar amount on the aggravation, fear, anger, and every other feeling that would go with a kaboom, when they had it in their mind at one point to make sure the stuff was all tossed away? I would be literally STUPID to go ahead and use any of that opened powder! At least I know the time-frame that the people were in my basement. And, I haven't reloaded for like 18 months, so it is not like I may have loaded a batch using compromised powder!

When I am in the mood, before the next round of reloading -- I will be sure to make fertilizer out of the existing powder, just spreading it across my lawn and dumping the empty containers. Then I will start out with a clean, "no-worries" batch of powder for my loads.

And, the bathroom where the powder is located will have a hasp with a lock on the door anytime anyone EVER comes to the basement again!

 

[Trent]

I padlock my reloading room.

Looks ugly having a big metal clasp on the door, and a big ugly padlock, but "knowing is knowing".

 

[Trent]

OH AND DO NOT POUR IT ON YOUR DRIVEWAY AND THINK IT WOULD BE "COOL" TO LIGHT A ONE POUND PILE!

I did that once and it cost me my arm hair, my goatee, my eyebrows, my eyelashes, and most of my "bangs".

Dumb, dumb, dumb...

 

[Trent]

(This is a classic example, for those curious, of why I don't trust myself sometimes.)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't find that notion farfetched at all. Maybe not even antis. There are a lot of really sick people in this world.

While it could happen and the paranoid gun folks have claimed for years that it must be happening, nobody has ever witnessed it happening and a startling number of the NDs at gun shows are by vendors with guns they brought in themselves, often personal guns, and did not properly clear beforehand. The other common NDs at gun shows are personal guns brought in but not checked beforehand (as if often required). I have yet to see a single document case of NDs at guns shows being the result of sabotage by an anti sneeking a cartridge into a gun. It would seem to be an oft suggested myth to cover gun owner/vendor/shopper incompetence.

Yeah, sabotage can happen a lot of places, but becoming worried that sabotage will happen at the store because it might have happened at the factory is something of a stretch. If it happens at the factory, then you should be worried that any ammo you buy might be problematic, not become particularly worried that it will be tampered with at the store.

Being prudent is rational, but nothing like being paraoid. If you want to be paranoid, go right ahead. It is, after all, an irrational fear.

 

[BADUNAME37]

OH AND DO NOT POUR IT ON YOUR DRIVEWAY AND THINK IT WOULD BE "COOL" TO LIGHT A ONE POUND PILE!

I did that once and it cost me my arm hair, my goatee, my eyebrows, my eyelashes, and most of my "bangs".

Dumb, dumb, dumb...

No, I know, I have grown beyond that stage, the "what would happen if" scenarios have pretty much all played out in my life at my age, now it is just a matter of staying alive one day at a time!

 

[BADUNAME37]

I padlock my reloading room.

Looks ugly having a big metal clasp on the door, and a big ugly padlock, but "knowing is knowing".

Amen and amen