Keep Me Out Of Trouble

[Saw-Bones]

I want to put the below accessory that is not really a grip on my AR-15 rifle and pistol - it stops the forearm hand from slipping back and I don't see it as a forearm grip handle even though it could be used that way - see how it is used in the last photo. I know that there is no violation on the rifle, but what about the pistol?

 

[GarySTL]

There was a recent thread on angled fore end grips that gave ATF cites that they were legal on pistols. However the question in my mind is whether or not that particular model is angled enough.

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not your lawyer etc.

 

[Saw-Bones]

GarySTL - I did a search on this forum and the threads that I found didn't have any of the ATF's cites. If you have a link to the one you mentioned I would like to see it.

The BCM KINESTHETIC ANGLED GRIP, is the one I need to know if it is legal on my AR-15 pistol.

I would appreciate it if anyone has information about this specific grip - thanks….. Doc

 

[Arizona_Mike]

It would appear that it is kind of a hybrid between a angled grip (which is legal) and a stop (which is legal). In fact the grip portion is at a more accute angle than others determined to be legal.

Just keep in mind you might be manufacturing an SBR if you hold it wrong

Mike

 

[Ryanxia]

Just keep in mind you might be manufacturing an SBR if you hold it wrong

Mike

This is actually quite true if you want to get technical. Since the ATF's recent ruling that the way you use something determines its classification (shouldering a Sig brace redesigns the firearm as a rifle, thus turning a pistol into an SBR) if you held it like a VFG it could potentially be considered that.

That being said, it's BS and hard to see them actually trying to prosecute someone for such obscure rulings. I wouldn't have a problem putting it on an AR pistol if it were me since there's no precedent.

 

[HRnightmare]

To be most sure I would mail the ATF NFA Firearms Technology branch a formal letter asking them that question in writing....you will get a response in writing which will keep the internet lawyers and gun range no it all's from telling you you cant have it or asking you to leave their range.

I had an AR pistol for a short time (while waiting for my SBR stamp and before installing a Magpul AFG on it I wrote them, included pictures of the item, the item's name, a picture and description directly from Magpul of the item and a picture from the website showing it on the rail of the pistol and received a letter signed in writing addressed directly to me with an answer...

 

[Ryanxia]

To be most sure I would mail the ATF NFA Firearms Technology branch a formal letter asking them that question in writing....

The problem is that when people keep doing this, the ATF will eventually issue a letter that says no you can't which then ruins it for everyone else (like the Sig brace). I'd leave it alone, there is no precedent and like AZ Mike said, it's basically a mix between an angled foregrip and a handstop until someone says otherwise.

 

[HRnightmare]

The problem is that when people keep doing this, the ATF will eventually issue a letter that says no you can't which then ruins it for everyone else (like the Sig brace). I'd leave it alone, there is no precedent and like AZ Mike said, it's basically a mix between an angled foregrip and a handstop until someone says otherwise.

The ATF is going to get tired of doing there job and therefore make a bad decision to prove some point? How about the possibility that they write an opinion letter allowing it?


Not to be condescending but I prefer piece of mind by a written signed letter rather then the potential to be unknowingly committing what they believe to be a Federal felony.

 

[RCArms.com]

The problem is that when people keep doing this, the ATF will eventually issue a letter that says no you can't which then ruins it for everyone else (like the Sig brace). I'd leave it alone, there is no precedent and like AZ Mike said, it's basically a mix between an angled foregrip and a handstop until someone says otherwise.

What ruined the whole Sig Brace deal is the explosion of the YouTube Gun writers suddenly publishing on it coupled with a poorly timed letter to the NFA asking for a determination that was more detailed than their previous approval to Sig to market the brace.

Kind of like killing the goose that laid the golden egg if you ask me, but its now water under the bridge and its created a host of ill will and hurt feelings.

 

[yugorpk]

What ruined the Sig Brace was that it was/is actually a butt stock. A butt stock on a short barrel AR-15 is a short barrel rifle. The real problem was that some idiot at ATF ruled it an "arm brace" in the first place. They took SIG's word for it without question when SIG was trying to pull a fast one. SIG has been doing a lot of that lately.

 

[kanook]

yugorpk
Member


Join Date: July 9, 2008
Location: Oregon Country
Posts: 377
What ruined the Sig Brace was that it was/is actually a butt stock. A butt stock on a short barrel AR-15 is a short barrel rifle. The real problem was that some idiot at ATF ruled it an "arm brace" in the first place. They took SIG's word for it without question when SIG was trying to pull a fast one. SIG has been doing a lot of that lately.
__________________
High Functioning Hillbilly

A one armed Veteran designed and patented the first "arm brace" to assist shooting his AR pistol. It was not designed as a butt stock.

 

[Ryanxia]

A one armed Veteran designed and patented the first "arm brace" to assist shooting his AR pistol. It was not designed as a butt stock.

This.

It has a legitimate use and was classified as such. But because every bozo that thinks they are a special snowflake and needed to write another letter to the ATF we now have to make sure that brace stays 1/1,000" away from our shoulders at all times. And by extension, any other pistol (since a precedent has been set, if the butt of your revolver touches your shoulder they could say it has been redesigned to be fired from the shoulder and thus is now an SBR).

 

[Elkins45]

What if I told you there was a way that would absolutely keep you out of trouble? And what if I told you the cost of this ironclad solution is a mere $200?

 

[pdsmith505]

What if I told you there was a way that would absolutely keep you out of trouble? And what if I told you the cost of this ironclad solution is a mere $200?

Well.. $200 and the associated hoops that one jumps through regarding SBR's. You know, like making sure your wife won't be in trouble if she has access, notifying the ATF if you are gonna take it across state lines...

 

[HRnightmare]

The Sig brace was being ruined because of all the youtube ninja's posting video's about the "ATF work around" and using condescending challenging terms like that. There were tons of video's mocking the ATF and saying how this is a backdoor to an SBR, Etc. etc... POKE THE BEAR and eventually the bear is going to fight back!

 

[yugorpk]

Well.. $200 and the associated hoops that one jumps through regarding SBR's. You know, like making sure your wife won't be in trouble if she has access, notifying the ATF if you are gonna take it across state lines...

Easy peasy. Its really not an issue at all but with a trust you can make your wife and as many other folks that you trust as trustees. Trusts can cost as much to draft as you'd like to pay or you can do it for next to nothing or nothing at all. There has been some talk of reigning in trust transfers since its so easy and most transfers are done on a trust now but since the ATF can't get its act together it hasnt actually acted on anything yet.

As far as the travel across state lines thing goes thats such a minor issue that it doesnt matter. The cost of a stamp and a 100% approval rate if you fill the form out right. The last one I did I put in the GPS coordinates of the entire neighboring state and it was approved. Good for a year. Then reapply. Again , its the cost of a stamp and if you are real cheap they will accept a fax.

 

[Saw-Bones]

Arizona Mike - It’s hard to believe that if the angle is a degree in the wrong direction you could be a felon. It has been my experience that normally the Feds leave a little wiggle room UNLESS they have a need to sock-it-to-you -- then you don’t get to wiggle.

Ryanxia - “That being said, it's BS and hard to see them actually trying to prosecute someone for such obscure rulings. I wouldn't have a problem putting it on an AR pistol if it were me since there's no precedent.”

I know the Feds by having worked several task forces with them. If they want you, you will have the unenviable opportunity to being a precedent setter.

Ryanxia - “The problem is that when people keep doing this, the ATF will eventually issue a letter that says no you can't which then ruins it for everyone else (like the Sig brace). I'd leave it alone, there is no precedent and like AZ Mike said, it's basically a mix between an angled foregrip and a handstop until someone says otherwise.”


HRnightmare - “The ATF is going to get tired of doing there job and therefore make a bad decision to prove some point? How about the possibility that they write an opinion letter allowing it?

Not to be condescending but I prefer piece of mind by a written signed letter rather then the potential to be unknowingly committing what they believe to be a Federal felony.

Damned if you do; damned if you don’t.


Registration has its pros and cons, but registering my AR-15 pistol as a SBR is not an option for me.

 

[Ryanxia]

I know the Feds by having worked several task forces with them. If they want you, you will have the unenviable opportunity to being a precedent setter.

And I know the ATF by watching their illegal activities get swept under the rug because the US government has more money than innocent people. So I would amend your statement to say, "If they want you, they don't need a law, they'll do what they want." Which is why, contrary to the 1986 FOPA act making registration of firearms illegal, the ATF copies every record from just about every dealer and the ones that point out it's illegal get steamrolled. But that's getting off topic.

I reiterate that if it's marketed as a handstop and not a VFG, you would have the benefit of the doubt on your side. And if it were me personally, I wouldn't have an issue slapping it on a pistol.

 

[Panzerschwein]

There was a recent thread on angled fore end grips that gave ATF cites that they were legal on pistols. However the question in my mind is whether or not that particular model is angled enough.

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not your lawyer etc.

+1

The ATF ruled the Magpuls legal... not sure about this one... maybe an email is in order?

C-Dill

 

[P226]

"A one armed Veteran designed and patented the first "arm brace" to assist shooting his AR pistol. It was not designed as a butt stock."

But that Veterans " arm brace " was made of soft leather with a Velcro strap. Nothing like Sig's rifle stock/brace. That's what killed Sig's arm brace. If it was made of soft leather like the version the Vet got approved they would still be ok because there is no way to use it as a stock.

Now as for this grip it "should be legal" . BUT we all know we will see several idiots using as a forward grip. With that straight back making illegal and a AOW.

 

[yugorpk]

"A one armed Veteran designed and patented the first "arm brace" to assist shooting his AR pistol. It was not designed as a butt stock."

But that Veterans " arm brace " was made of soft leather with a Velcro strap. Nothing like Sig's rifle stock/brace. That's what killed Sig's arm brace. If it was made of soft leather like the version the Vet got approved they would still be ok because there is no way to use it as a stock.

Now as for this grip it "should be legal" . BUT we all know we will see several idiots using as a forward grip. With that straight back making illegal and a AOW.

A one armed veteran might have designed a arm brace. SIG designed a butt stock they could pass of as an arm brace.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

That device in the opening post looks to me like a simple grip stop, but I am not an enforcement agency. I personally can see uses for that device as a hand stop for a horizontal grip:
o For a repeatable grip position for sake of accuracy, I made a hand stop by wrapping a stock with loops of parachute cord.
o In the same DIY spirit, with a short but legal long gun I attached a loop of web strapping to the forearm so my hand could not slip in front of the muzzle.
I see the device as being useful as a grip stop to enhance safety and accuracy. But, as a vertical grip accomodating maybe one finger on an AR pistol, that device would be useless for that purpose, in my layman opinion.

The part of me inherited from the coal mining country side of the family wants to scoff at bull manure laws, but I do advise checking with ATF Firearms Technology Branch and getting a letter. But watch carefully the wording of your question: stay clear and on point.

Side track: the SIG brace I looked at was awfully short and useless as a buttstock to me. It also did seem clumsy to me as an armbrace. Since I am two handed, I saw no need; but, if I had an AR pistol, it could work as a counterweight to balance the gun at the handgrip one handed. And I might want it for the same reason my wife bought a copy of Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" -- just because they said no.

 

[Ryanxia]

A one armed veteran might have designed a arm brace. SIG designed a butt stock they could pass of as an arm brace.

Actually Sig's product is still an arm brace. The end user using an object in a manner other than as intended is not the manufacturer's responsibility. And up until the ATF's most recent ruling, using it in a different manner did not "reclassify" that object.
Just like someone using the tailgate of their truck as a table does not reclassify the truck from a vehicle to a table. Still need to register it, inspect it, etc.

Think of all the firearms that could be reclassified by just using them differently than intended.