key flail.

[Carl Levitian]

If the flail is effective or not is just a side problem. The real problem as I see it is, can it pass the security checkpoint without getting a second glance?

Keychains go through security everyday in the little plastic tray, and most have some keys and stuff. But a pound of keys, an inappropriate number or mass of keys on a long strap or chain is going to be a blip. Cops and security people at courthouses or federal buildings get the memos, and I'm sure that padlocks on bandanas and lots of keys on chains are going to be looked at a second time. Counter productive to my thinking. Add in the fact that they may not even be effective is yet another issue with them.

There's just too many other items that will raise no eyebrows. Canes, AA flashlight, sturdy pen, work fine with no question and actually have a real world use. I like having plausible deniability if something happens.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Enough with the opinionated speculations. I am going to make one and see how practical it is.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Get a police or trucker snap over your belt key holder the leather backing protects your pants and the short leather fold over snap is used as a handle according to MA.

 

[JShirley]

As I also said, I've taken braided lanyard, with a few keys on one end, and a heavy carabiner on the other, through multiple airports, and also into nightclubs that carefully wanded everyone, and allowed no "dog chain" type key lanyards. While I have had keys with my Gerber Shard mini-tool examined carefully, no-one's given the paracord lanyard a second glance.

Owen, somewhere between 18-24" of braid is probably optimal. I usually put a much smaller, lighter carabiner on the key end, and a heavy-duty on the other. If you try this out, be prepared to duck quickly after you've struck a target with it. Eye pro is a good idea. Also, you need to learn how to "bleed" the energy off a swing. Straps are not a good connector for this- the shape will be hazardous, and being wide and flat, they will tend to bunch, tangle, and may catch the wind, slowing a swing.

Carl, when facing a sharp, standoff distance is a Really Good Thing. And if you believe a pen will be effective, but a dense 5-oz weight at high velocity won't be, I'm going to start questioning a lot of things you've opined about. As I also carefully pointed out, the carabiner-ended lanyard is very useful in real life.

John

 

[Carl Levitian]

Carl, when facing a sharp, standoff distance is a Really Good Thing. And if you believe a pen will be effective, but a dense 5-oz weight at high velocity won't be, I'm going to start questioning a lot of things you've opined about. As I also carefully pointed out, the carabiner-ended lanyard is very useful in real life.

John
____________

You can question all you want to, John, but I don't see how in this world some keys on the end of a chain is going to be anywhere as near effective as a cane or stick of some kind. It just seems to TV'ish to be a decent weapon in a pinch. If I have to 'face a sharp' as you call it, that's what 34 inches of blackthorn is for.

Take any couple average joe's off the street and give one a long chain with some keys and the other a cane, then send someone with 'a sharp' their way. Who do you think is going to do better? The cane is always in the hand ready to go. The long keychain is not. It needs to be taken out and deployed, unless you are walking around twirling it. I've been a police officer on the street, and I know the stuff the street punks carry. It was not uncommon even back then to find them with the padlock and bandana, a dog choke collar with a bunch of keys, church key type can openers. My youngest son is a police officer, and they still are finding some of this crap on the punks. Things haven't changed a bit, and the same old urban myth stuff keeps popping up. And the same old urban street weapons still keep popping up as well, no matter how ineffective they are. Oh, I'm sure there are some very experienced martial artists than do great things with the weighted chain, but outside of a martial art studio, for the guy who just wants to protect himself, how good a weapon is it really?

Even if you have to face ' a sharp' does the key flail give you some protection? How much impact is it going to have blocked by an arm while the knife hand lunges? How fast can it block then counter strike? A stick can block and thrust even in tight spaces with no wind up momentum needed. Even in tight quarters, a stick can be brought up into throat, testicles, diaphragm, to inflict crippling blows. How good is a flail if you don't have time or space to swing it?

A pound of keys that don't fit anything, on a long chain, strap, cord whatever, is starting to edge over into the "prepared weapon" category. That's not where you want to go, because it can be used to indicate intent of use. A cane, flashlight, sturdy pen, are normal everyday objects with a real use. And with the Americans With Disabiltiy act canes are off limits to harassment. Unlike something that a officer finds 'weird'. Probable cause can be covered by a wide variety of things that don't seem to fit the norm. A pound of keys is outside the norm.

I'm sorry, but in the norm of American life on the street, I just don't see how some keys on a chain is going to give the level of protection that a nice piece of hornbeam, ash, hickory, or any other wood is going to give. Nor will it pass as unnoticed through security checkpoints. Maybe Bruce Lee could make do with it, but most will be better served with some form of stick.

But it's a free country last I heard, carry what you want.

 

[Owen Sparks]

No question a ridgid stick is better than any flexable weapon.

 

[JShirley]

Hitting anyone with a bunch of keys is a bad choice, unless you literally have nothing else. Hitting someone with a heavy-duty piece of steel equipment is something else entirely. Carl, feel free to keep saying a bunch of keys won't be effective. Just ignore that I pointed out that a bunch of keys was the wrong way to set this up.

I believe strongly in sticks as defensive weapons, but it's hard for some of us to manage a cane and carry/drag 4 duffel bags at the same time. The carabiner-ended lanyard, on the other hand, clips easily onto a belt loop or MOLLE strap. People online ask a lot of silly questions about what firearms are "better". The response is always "better for WHAT?" If we really just wanted to talk about what was most effective defensively, we wouldn't be discussing improvised weapons at all. We'd actually do nothing but debate which longarm to carry.

The type of lanyard I describe is "better" at outranging any common knife but still fitting into my pocket than a cane.

 

[conw]

Question about "standoff distance."

It seems one or all of the following assumptions are built into that term...

1) with a standoff weapon we can stop a determined attacker before he closes distance
2) with a standoff weapon an attacker will choose not to close distance
3) a standoff weapon somehow allows us to maintain distance for longer

Assuming we rule out ranged weapons like firearms I don't find these assumptions valid. now, if 1 is true sometimes and skill dependent AND we can count on 2 as a possibility, AND the weapon is also useful at 0 feet, okay, fair enough.

But I don't really get the concept. Someone can pretty much cover up and crash the line if they are determined. that would be a good time to know how to use the weapon at closer distances and in the case of a heavy weighted flail I feel for time spent attempting to gain proficiency at 0 feet some (additional) h2h skills would be a better goal.

The way it's used in this thread gives the impression that by possessing a stick or other lengthy weapon you can turn a knife assault or other violence into something resembling fencing. I'm not buying that.

 

[JShirley]

A heavy weight at the end of a lanyard can stop an attacker before he can close.

"Fencing" with a stick would be dangerous to the defender.

 

[AStone]

"Fencing" with a stick would be dangerous to the defender.

Exactly.

That's why sticks - especially those in the range 16" - 32"
- should be swung/snapped like a racketball racket
at anything that comes out: foot, leg, arm/fist, knife ...

It's all about wrist snap = acceleration.

As you know, f = ma.

 

[JShirley]

Okay, I had to give my last reply hurriedly, so here is what I know.

The type implement I am describing is very "low observability". It's easy to hold in your hand and be invisible, especially in low light.

A skilled user can swing something like this hard enough to cause concussion or break bone.

A skilled user can also use the type tool I have described to trap at contact distance.

Again, I have never suggested hitting someone with a "bunch of keys" if there is any reasonable alternative. Hitting someone with a heavy steel carabiner at high velocity is something else. I have also used something similar, but with a sturdy flashlight on the far end. This is actually even more useful for pure defensive purposes, since the defender now has two good striking surfaces.

The wide fabric strap or flimsy strap I've seen keys dangled by are liabilities, in addition to the basic problems with striking with a big wad of keys in the first place.

John

 

[leadcounsel]

Rather than a pound of keys, just carry around an effective and more readily justifiable device like a maglight 3-cell flashlight. My client just literally ruined a guy's head with one. Crushed the guys skull with between 2-4 hits, and nearly killed him.

 

[JShirley]

Again, a large flashlight is much more difficult to carry around than a lanyard with a few keys or a sturdy small flashlight on one end, and a heavy carabiner on the other. Carrying around a pound of keys, unless you're a custodian, is just stupid.

 

[opr1945]

Metal weight on end of a strap is called "slug shot." And in many states they are illegal along with saps, brass knuckles, etc.

 

[Brian Williams]

I have won more pillow fights with a pair of socks than with pillows, take one sock and roll it up and place in the bottom toe of the other, knee socks are the best. I will make you hurt and think twice.
Marine blanket parties were with a sock and a bar of soap so you did not hurt your hands.
swinging keys on a strap is one more tool in the set. Do I have a strap on my keys, no way, but could rig one quickly.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Fundamentals of Modern Police Impact Weapons - Massad Ayoob. Mass spends a couple of pages on how to make a key impact weapon. In the book it is in context of a Jailer who cannot carry a gun inside lockup.
Get the book and read what he says. Interesting reading and a differing view point than what I keep hearing on this tread by most.

 

[AStone]

For some strange reason, I feel a desire to attach
a woven section of paracord onto the clip on my key ring.

I can't explain it.

It would ride on my left side, clipped to my belt loop,
paracord hanging down, probably tucked into my left pocket.

On my right side, clipped into my right pocket would be my EDC,
a Spyderco Manix 2, below which - in a vertical pocket - rides a metal kubotan.

On my back, in a pack, one or another, rides a stick of length 16", 18" or 20".

Keys. Who'da thunk?
In a last resort, any thing will do.

Got keys?

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Mass said it should have just junk keys on it.