Kibler "Colonial" build thread

[.38 Special]

I don't like bright brass either, I'm not really a fan of any brass on any gun. I've thought to just blacken it right out but doesn't fit with my fresh off the rack look I'd like. Don't think I'd engrave either, don't think many new guns then we're when new it's hard to say if they were. If you think the best guns back then we're all used and worn out the survivors today maybe the rifles not as popular, unless they were special.

We are of one mind on that topic. The French and Indian War period is my primary interest, and I'd like to have a "working" gun that could have been bought off the rack for that purpose - albeit one that's seen a couple of years of use, and that happened to be cut from a pretty nice tree.

 

[troy fairweather]

Deciding on caliber is NOT easy. I struggled with that. My choice, with my Jeager, was between .58 and .62". I had all the .58" "stuff", bullet molds especially. And, I'm a fan of the .58". But, the bigger the bore, the lighter the barrel, and I planned to hunt far and hard with it, and take it trekking and exploring too. So the lighter the better. The other "thing" was that as I hunt in a Grizzly recovery area, the increase in whomp was not a bad thing. Although, I'm not sure what a hot loaded .58 can't do. Or, "was there enough difference to make a difference"?

In the end I went .62", mostly due to the weight, which again, is not that much difference. But when ranging far and wide, every ounce can count. As for power, I can always load the .62 "down" to a .58", in theory? but the bigger bore will always have an edge, when both are loaded as hot as one dares, although at the price of more whomp to the shoulder.

If you aren't spending time in Mr. Grizz's backyard, I don't think you'll be unhappy with a .54". All I hear about them is good stuff. Sure haven't heard complaints about it. People dropping moose and elk with it. And the ball certainly has plenty of weight, way outclasses the .50" bore. It's a good caliber.

My dad had a beautiful original Jaeger when I was young, it was only about 44 cal most seem to be high 50s and up. Maybe it was made for smaller game back then, not a child's rifle the lop was pretty long. For the colonial even tho it will be shot more at targets I like to hunt with everything I own if legal. For a bench gun a 50 would be nice tho, cheapest to shot and least kick. Still don't know what I'd get maybe have to hold one of each and feel itout.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

.44 would be small caliber for a Jeager. I think, from what I know, that generally speaking .60" caliber was more of a common caliber for the Jeager. Of course that does not mean they did not come in many calibers. But I believe around .60-62" would be "normal" for a Jeager. Also, Jeagers were geneally normally fairly short rifles, but there are examples of them with much longer barrels.

I think the average caliber for long-rifles was usually around .52". ? I saw a study once where someone sought out every long rifle he could, collections and museums, etc., and noted all the calibers, then averaged them out, and came up with .52".

 

[Ugly Sauce]

We are of one mind on that topic. The French and Indian War period is my primary interest, and I'd like to have a "working" gun that could have been bought off the rack for that purpose - albeit one that's seen a couple of years of use, and that happened to be cut from a pretty nice tree.

I think brass with a nice patina on it is beautiful. Brand new shiney, not so much. I "prefer" iron mounted rifles, but nothing wrong with the brass on my Brown Bess. In fact I've added brass brads to it, and the serpent side plate. So I guess I'm a fan of brass on the King's musket for sure. !!!

The long rifle I'd love to have would be a York County gun, which of course would be brass mounted. But yeah, I'd never polish it.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The truth is that in my case it probably just doesn't matter. I'm almost certainly through with big game hunting; this rifle probably will never kill anything more lively than a pinecone. And when those pinecones live in bear country, there will be a .500 S&W hidden under my coat! So horsepower won't be any issue, and the small difference in rifle weight likely won't either. And if worse comes to worst, I'm sure Jim would be happy to sell me another barrel!

No, I think .54" will/is a very good choice. And I think it would get any bear's attention just fine just by loading it heavy. In fact, I'm not familiar with .500S&W ballistics, but the .54 with a heavy charge probably out-powers it. Yeah, I tend to overthink things like weight and hoss-power.

 

[.38 Special]

No, I think .54" will/is a very good choice. And I think it would get any bear's attention just fine just by loading it heavy. In fact, I'm not familiar with .500S&W ballistics, but the .54 with a heavy charge probably out-powers it. Yeah, I tend to overthink things like weight and hoss-power.

The .500 slug doesn't move out quite as fast as a ball from a longrifle, but it weighs twice as much - and there are five of 'em, one right after the next.

 

[troy fairweather]

.44 would be small caliber for a Jeager. I think, from what I know, that generally speaking .60" caliber was more of a common caliber for the Jeager. Of course that does not mean they did not come in many calibers. But I believe around .60-62" would be "normal" for a Jeager. Also, Jeagers were geneally normally fairly short rifles, but there are examples of them with much longer barrels.

I think the average caliber for long-rifles was usually around .52". ? I saw a study once where someone sought out every long rifle he could, collections and museums, etc., and noted all the calibers, then averaged them out, and came up with .52".

It was a very ornate rifle so maybe it was ordered that way. I believe a good amount of harkens were less then 45 cal. It's hard to say I know many guns got rebore and rifled it was much cheaper then a new gun back then a d .any may not have been marked. So the true average maybe less then 52 cal. I'm sure there's many things that may change the common bore size, what game used for or even bad economy at the time.

 

[troy fairweather]

One thing I always hated I live in the Hudson valley in N.Y. Right on the ny,nj,pa tri state line, being so close to pa where many of these rifles were made back then you would think there is a local style but can't find any makers close from back them. We have the Hudson Fowler but there pricy and not very practical unless shooting geese on the Hudson which I don't think I'd allowed now.

 

[hawg]

I would have screwed it up already.

I would have screwed it up opening the box.

 

[.38 Special]

I would have screwed it up opening the box.

It's shocking how thin the stock is at the tip. At this point I'm assuming the brass nose piece isn't decorative but rather intended to cover up the damage from banging the stock into things in the shop!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

It's shocking how thin the stock is at the tip. At this point I'm assuming the brass nose piece isn't decorative but rather intended to cover up the damage from banging the stock into things in the shop!

Truth. Jeagers don't "usually" have nose-caps, but we went with one just for a little more ruggedness in the field. The fore-stock is very delicate for much of it's length, and many get broken when someone takes the barrel out, by prying them apart. The "correct" way, as-you-know, is to hold the barrel by the muzzle, and gently ("super gently") bump the butt-stock on a soft surface, (carpet, blanket) so that the stock falls away from the barrel.

 

[4v50 Gary]

We are of one mind on that topic. The French and Indian War period is my primary interest, and I'd like to have a "working" gun that could have been bought off the rack for that purpose - albeit one that's seen a couple of years of use, and that happened to be cut from a pretty nice tree.

The closest I can think of is the Edward Marshall Long Walk Rifle. I know the F&I rifles were bigger bore, heavier and stouter than those of the Revolution but how much so I don't know. Even the Edward Marshall is an iffy proposition since it's been suggested by some that it is actually a restock.

The best authority would be Wallace Gusler, but no one thinks he'll finish his book.

 

[hawg]

The closest I can think of is the Edward Marshall Long Walk Rifle. I know the F&I rifles were bigger bore, heavier and stouter than those of the Revolution but how much so I don't know. Even the Edward Marshall is an iffy proposition since it's been suggested by some that it is actually a restock.

The best authority would be Wallace Gusler, but no one thinks he'll finish his book.

A good but lengthy read on Edward Marshall and the Long Walk Rifle. The rifle is discussed in-depth in part 2. http://www.erickettenburg.com/edward-marshalls-rifle.html

 

[4v50 Gary]

Thanks Hawg. From the article one can see that the military-like buttplate is wider and flatter than the post American Revolution longrifles that had the crescent buttplate. I prefer them as they're more comfortable.

 

[.38 Special]

Fitted the lock, which was almost as simple as just pressing it into the mortise and screwing it in. The inletting on both sides is essentially perfect. I did run a tap through from the non-lock side just to ensure perfect alignment.




Then I moved onto the patchbox, and my first real mistake. The butt plate notch has to be opened up with a file, and the grooves as well. The usual cut-and-try worked perfectly up to a point, but then I just couldn't get the lid to slide home the last half-inch. I kept cutting, a tiny bit at a time, until I had essentially a rattle fit - which is when I realized that the lid was simply a half-inch too long. Apparently it hadn't been finished at Kibler's. I should have quit and called them, but I figured shortening it and maintaining the bevel at the back wouldn't be too much of a trick. So of course now it's just slightly too short. Argh.

So I'll order a replacement from Kibler - but I think I'll try to sort my mistake by adding a brass plate to the back of the box, which would also fix the slight rattle fit caused by over-filing the butt plate cutout.

And now it's time for bourbon.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Love seeing a good quality lock. Is your touch-hole drilled, or is that done after the lock and barrel are fitted?

 

[.38 Special]

Love seeing a good quality lock. Is your touch-hole drilled, or is that done after the lock and barrel are fitted?

Yes, it appears to me that a liner has already been installed and fitted so perfectly that if not for the dissimilar materials, it wouldn't show at all. I'm admittedly annoyed with the patchbox lid, but every business is going to make the occasional mistake, and if wasn't so inexperienced I would have noticed it and/or fixed it before it became an issue. Overall, the fit level of this kit is scarcely believable, and even little things like the tap for the lock threads is included. I really don't "need" more than a single high-quality flintlock, but I won't be at all surprised to find myself someday hitting the "order" button again. They are promising a Hawken at some point...

 

[troy fairweather]

Are you doing a toe plate, that's the one thing I'll definitely do but not sure why I'll make it out of yet. The woodsrunner kit is supposed to be even easier and we'll finished. That's probably the best thing about kibler he always keeps improving his kits even the older ones. A hawken kit will sell great don't think there even making the Lyman anymore and the cva if still made is not good or look like a hawken.

 

[.38 Special]

Are you doing a toe plate, that's the one thing I'll definitely do but not sure why I'll make it out of yet. The woodsrunner kit is supposed to be even easier and we'll finished. That's probably the best thing about kibler he always keeps improving his kits even the older ones. A hawken kit will sell great don't think there even making the Lyman anymore and the cva if still made is not good or look like a hawken.

I like the way a toe plate looks on certain rifles - I'd definitely add one to the SMR, and maybe the Woodsrunner - but not on this style of gun. And I came very close to ordering the Woodsrunner instead, partially because it sounds so simple to put together. Honestly, though, the Colonial is, so far, even easier than advertised. A lot of the stuff the videos had prepared me for turned out to be already completed on this gun; the videos simply hadn't kept up with the progress of the kit!

I have come very close to buying the Pedersoli "Rocky Mountain Hawken" on several occasions. Once I even told myself I would buy it when I found it for a thousand dollars or less and I stuck to my word even when Cabela's offered them for $1025. In a way I feel foolish for having refused it over twenty five bucks, but in another, it looks like a Kibler kit might be in the same ballpark price-wise, and would likely be better quality in every way.

 

[troy fairweather]

I like the way a toe plate looks on certain rifles - I'd definitely add one to the SMR, and maybe the Woodsrunner - but not on this style of gun. And I came very close to ordering the Woodsrunner instead, partially because it sounds so simple to put together. Honestly, though, the Colonial is, so far, even easier than advertised. A lot of the stuff the videos had prepared me for turned out to be already completed on this gun; the videos simply hadn't kept up with the progress of the kit!

I have come very close to buying the Pedersoli "Rocky Mountain Hawken" on several occasions. Once I even told myself I would buy it when I found it for a thousand dollars or less and I stuck to my word even when Cabela's offered them for $1025. In a way I feel foolish for having refused it over twenty five bucks, but in another, it looks like a Kibler kit might be in the same ballpark price-wise, and would likely be better quality in every way.

The hawken kit should be very easy for kibler to make and hope the price is under 1200 tho these guns could be 1500+ and still a good buy. I'd definitely want a hawken hope he does a full stock but if the barrels change out quick I'd get a extra barrel like a 36 and a 54 you could do a lot with. I know the butt plate on the woodsrunner is now full cnc so pretty much now fitting and each new gun gets improved. His locks are really nice I like how the plate is all one piece.

 

[hawg]

. A hawken kit will sell great don't think there even making the Lyman anymore and the cva if still made is not good or look like a hawken.

The Lyman rifles were made by Investarms. The Lyman signature series is the same rifle as the Lyman Great Plains only it's made by Pedersoli now. CVA hasn't imported a sidelock in years.

 

[.38 Special]

Good day of work.

Got the trigger pinned into place. The holes are pre-drilled. The trigger itself - the bit which fits up inside the gun - needed a bit of file work, as it was slightly too wide. Supposedly the upper surface, where it contacts the sear bar, also needs some material removed but this one was perfect out of the box. During final finish I will polish those surfaces but not remove any more metal than absolutely necessary.


Trigger guard gets the edges filed, with a couple degrees of draft, and a little step cleaned up underneath. A slight bit of cleanup with the chisel helps inside the stock. Once fitted, clamps hold the guard into place while holes are drilled through a pair of tabs, using preexisting holes in the stock. Then pins are cut, rounded, and driven in. Very easy.



Then fitted the entry pipe. The pipe itself needs just a couple of minutes with file, cleaning up the edges and adding draft. Rather than a hole in the tab, there is a small slot, allowing for slight misalignment with the pin. Again, perfectly straightforward.


The other pipes go in the same way. I badly screwed up those pictures, but we all know what ramrod pipes look like, so...

The nose cap took some doing. It has to fit both the stock and the barrel, so lots of things to think about while running the file. I took my time fitting it - probably 30 minutes of fine work - then glued it with 5 minute epoxy, clamped to minimize any gaps.


After the epoxy set, I drilled two holes through the stock and cap, chamfered them on both sides, set brass nails and peened them over. Filing and shaping made one dissappear entirely, while the other did leave a little gap. I've seen that on originals so am not bothered by it. It's pretty noticeable in close-up, but otherwise you kind of have to look for it. I may be able to improve it a bit during final cleanup, but really am not going to sweat it.


Next up was drawfiling the barrel. I used a good single-cut file I reserve for finish work. Then sanding blocks down to 400 grit, and a final polish with Scotchbrite. That was a solid couple of hours, during the first heatwave of the season, and our AC is on the fritz. So I changed my shirt afterwards.


Last bit for today was the ramrod. The cap fits onto a tenon and is pinned into place with steel nail. Again, a hole is drilled and chamfered, the nail is cut, peened over, and filed. It disappeared entirely, on both sides. Then the rod is sanded until it fits the pipes just right.


So it's turning into a rifle. Tomorrow I plan to disassemble the lock and finish it to the same degree as the barrel. If I'm not ready to shoot myself afterwards I'll get to work on the brass parts as well. Still waiting on the replacement patchbox, and then I'll just about be ready for the final finish work.

 

[Miguel Loco]

Good day of work.

Got the trigger pinned into place. The holes are pre-drilled. The trigger itself - the bit which fits up inside the gun - needed a bit of file work, as it was slightly too wide. Supposedly the upper surface, where it contacts the sear bar, also needs some material removed but this one was perfect out of the box. During final finish I will polish those surfaces but not remove any more metal than absolutely necessary.
View attachment 1160061

Trigger guard gets the edges filed, with a couple degrees of draft, and a little step cleaned up underneath. A slight bit of cleanup with the chisel helps inside the stock. Once fitted, clamps hold the guard into place while holes are drilled through a pair of tabs, using preexisting holes in the stock. Then pins are cut, rounded, and driven in. Very easy.
View attachment 1160062


Then fitted the entry pipe. The pipe itself needs just a couple of minutes with file, cleaning up the edges and adding draft. Rather than a hole in the tab, there is a small slot, allowing for slight misalignment with the pin. Again, perfectly straightforward.
View attachment 1160063

The other pipes go in the same way. I badly screwed up those pictures, but we all know what ramrod pipes look like, so...

The nose cap took some doing. It has to fit both the stock and the barrel, so lots of things to think about while running the file. I took my time fitting it - probably 30 minutes of fine work - then glued it with 5 minute epoxy, clamped to minimize any gaps.
View attachment 1160064

After the epoxy set, I drilled two holes through the stock and cap, chamfered them on both sides, set brass nails and peened them over. Filing and shaping made one dissappear entirely, while the other did leave a little gap. I've seen that on originals so am not bothered by it. It's pretty noticeable in close-up, but otherwise you kind of have to look for it. I may be able to improve it a bit during final cleanup, but really am not going to sweat it.
View attachment 1160077

Next up was drawfiling the barrel. I used a good single-cut file I reserve for finish work. Then sanding blocks down to 400 grit, and a final polish with Scotchbrite. That was a solid couple of hours, during the first heatwave of the season, and our AC is on the fritz. So I changed my shirt afterwards.
View attachment 1160065

Last bit for today was the ramrod. The cap fits onto a tenon and is pinned into place with steel nail. Again, a hole is drilled and chamfered, the nail is cut, peened over, and filed. It disappeared entirely, on both sides. Then the rod is sanded until it fits the pipes just right.
View attachment 1160066

So it's turning into a rifle. Tomorrow I plan to disassemble the lock and finish it to the same degree as the barrel. If I'm not ready to shoot myself afterwards I'll get to work on the brass parts as well. Still waiting on the replacement patchbox, and then I'll just about be ready for the final finish work.

Nice work!

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Old .38 Special is trucking right along! Any of those little flaws, like the nose cap, will disappear when the brass is polished and some patina develops. And if anyone gets their eyeball close enough to see that, and says anything....SLAP THEM!! I doubt that any of the original guns were perfect and un-flawed, unless it was a very high-buck, gold and silver inlaid diamond studded type of rifle, made for some Mr. Money-Bags or the King of Siam or something.

 

[.38 Special]

Well, woke up ready to get to work on the lock, then spent the next two hours hunting for my mainspring vise. It's apparently fallen right off the planet, so I ordered a replacement and did the final finish prep on the tomahawk instead. Good lord I am tired of draw filing...