Kimber 45 CDP Pro misfeeding
- Thread starter SkippyM
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rbernie
Contributing Member
The Wolf XP spring is too stiff.
The rounds are failing to feed because the nose isn't getting high enough before the slide slams forward. How is increasing the spring rate going to make that better?
It's not. It makes it worse.
You need a stock spring rate (18lbs) and better mags that get the round up into position and keep it there under the forces of recoil.
The rounds are failing to feed because the nose isn't getting high enough before the slide slams forward. How is increasing the spring rate going to make that better?
It's not. It makes it worse.
You need a stock spring rate (18lbs) and better mags that get the round up into position and keep it there under the forces of recoil.
Kruzr
Member
The stock spring rate is a 22# Officer's spring, not 18#.
Pics may help. I pulled the recoil spring and used some dry-fires to best simulate what the FTF's look like.
Ramp after about 800 rounds total - probably 10 - 15% FTF's.
Ramp marked:
- Blue were present at purchase new.
- Red appear to be where ball hangs on vast majority of FTF's. Notice the small "ridge" across the ramp face present at manufacture.
- Green looks like normal feeds.
Most common FTF shell position:
(Viewed from rear)
(Viewed from above)
Much less common FTF shell position:
(Viewed from rear)
(Viewed from above)
Again, these FTF's occur with stock 22 lb and 24 lb recoil springs in Kimber, Chip Mc and Wilson mags (all new parts). The 24 lb spring was by far the worst setup in any of the mags. Stiffer mag spring? 20 lb recoil spring? Send back to Kimber?
Ramp after about 800 rounds total - probably 10 - 15% FTF's.
Ramp marked:
- Blue were present at purchase new.
- Red appear to be where ball hangs on vast majority of FTF's. Notice the small "ridge" across the ramp face present at manufacture.
- Green looks like normal feeds.
Most common FTF shell position:
(Viewed from rear)
(Viewed from above)
Much less common FTF shell position:
(Viewed from rear)
(Viewed from above)
Again, these FTF's occur with stock 22 lb and 24 lb recoil springs in Kimber, Chip Mc and Wilson mags (all new parts). The 24 lb spring was by far the worst setup in any of the mags. Stiffer mag spring? 20 lb recoil spring? Send back to Kimber?
The pics above seem to support your theory, but I'm using a stock recoil spring (22 lbs for a 45 Pro) and a new Wilson mag now. Is there a better mag? Do I need a stiffer Wolff mag spring?
EDIT: Wilson literature says frame ramp should be at least 0.350" deep from the top of the frame rails for maximum feed reliability. Mine measures in just under that at around 0.330" - 0.340" deep... I think I found the problem....
Last edited:
That looks like Kimber needs to fix the ramp and barrel throat, as well as their relationship, but I am no expert. Great pics, by the way. Maybe Tuner will chime in. With pics like that, he could probably tell you in the blink of an eye.
rbernie
Contributing Member
The CDP Pro is a 4" barrel. It should use a 18lb to 20lb spring. The fact that Kimber oversprings it from the factory don't make that right - just makes it so.
I no longer have my CDPs, but I ran a 20lb Wolff spring in them when I did, and had no issues with that. If the OP really wants, he can get the Wolff recoil sping calibration pack and see what he likes out of that selection.
But I'd suggest that a 20lb spring is more than adequate.
Yes, and yes.
The Wolff (www.gunsprings.com) XP mag spings are 11lb rated, and are the best spring there is. You put them inside a Colt SP572491 7rd tapered-lip magazine and you'll be amazed at how much less drama and kerChunk! you have in your feeding cycle.
chihuahuatn
Member
Kimber's Webs site:
http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/cdp/pro_cdp_II/
Specifications: Height (inches) 90° to barrel: 5.25
Weight (ounces) with empty magazine: 28
Length (inches): 7.7
Magazine capacity: 7
Ambidextrous thumb safety
Carry melt
Recoil spring (pounds): 22.0
Full length guide rod
The chewing up is caused by the metal follower on aluminum frames.....use the Wilson mags. You can read about this here:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=61318
hope this helps........
http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/cdp/pro_cdp_II/
Specifications: Height (inches) 90° to barrel: 5.25
Weight (ounces) with empty magazine: 28
Length (inches): 7.7
Magazine capacity: 7
Ambidextrous thumb safety
Carry melt
Recoil spring (pounds): 22.0
Full length guide rod
The chewing up is caused by the metal follower on aluminum frames.....use the Wilson mags. You can read about this here:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=61318
hope this helps........
rbernie
Contributing Member
Yes, I know that.. I have owned several myself. As I said in the thread just before yours:
But I will bow out and let y'all bandy advice back and forth. Doesn't matter to me so much if the OPs pistol runs, or not. I'm just trying to give you some advice and logic from someone who's BTDT.
Carry on.
Sapper771
Member
I am not an expert on the 1911, but I have had my run around with Kimber, and trust me, it was not a fun one. They told me that I was the problem , not the gun. I explained to them that I had been shooting 1911s since I was 7 and I had 6 years of military experience along with some specialized training with pistols. Kimber then told me that it was my ammo. I explained to them that I had fired winchester, CCI, S&B, Fiochi, remington, UMC, federal, wolf, and blazer brass.
At this point the CS rep was rather irate with me and told me to send it back to them. To make a long story short, after two trips to Kimber, $120 in overnight shipping ( The only option available), and still two jams per magazine no matter what ammo you feed it, I got rid of it. I will never own another Kimber again.
I know my personal experience with Kimber does not help your problem. I would recommend not going through Kimber to get yours fixed. I would talk to 1911Tuner, he is very knowledgeable in the science of the 1911.
You can also try to troubleshoot your problems using this link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=61238
Either way , good luck , I hope you get it worked out.
At this point the CS rep was rather irate with me and told me to send it back to them. To make a long story short, after two trips to Kimber, $120 in overnight shipping ( The only option available), and still two jams per magazine no matter what ammo you feed it, I got rid of it. I will never own another Kimber again.
I know my personal experience with Kimber does not help your problem. I would recommend not going through Kimber to get yours fixed. I would talk to 1911Tuner, he is very knowledgeable in the science of the 1911.
You can also try to troubleshoot your problems using this link:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=61238
Either way , good luck , I hope you get it worked out.
Lone_Gunman
Member
Sapper771 and I have had very similar experiences with Kimber "customer service".
loop
Member
You probably nullified your warranty with the use of the McCormick mags. I can see where the follower dug into the ramp. If I can see it I suspect the folks at Kimber can see it.
Your issue is one of timing. The slide is going too fast for the mag spring to push a round into the proper position to feed. That indicates a softer recoil spring and/or a stronger mag spring.
This is a simple fix. Go to a lighter recoil spring. If that does not resolve the issue go to a more powerful (Wolff +10) mag spring.
Note: The ramp has suffered significant damage. That is your fault. You did not cease operation when you knew there was an issue.
A feed ramp insert is available from EGW. It will cost about $200 to have it installed.
You and your type of problem are my favorite to run into at gun shows. I can fix it with less than $20 worth of parts and under an hour of my time.
As to those who are disappointed with Kimber's service, why on earth would you send a gun back to the factory unless it is so out of spec and the holes don't line up?
1911s are very simple machines. Just fix it.
And never, ever, feed them crappy ammo like American Eagle or Blazer. That is just asking for trouble.
I can't believe someone would buy a high-end gun and feed it budget ammo. Does that make sense? Like I'll buy a Vette and run it on kerosene.
If you want to sell it I'll give you $200 less than you paid - and sell it for $400 more.
Repeat after me: The 1911 is a very simple machine, the 1911 is a very simple machine...
Your issue is one of timing. The slide is going too fast for the mag spring to push a round into the proper position to feed. That indicates a softer recoil spring and/or a stronger mag spring.
This is a simple fix. Go to a lighter recoil spring. If that does not resolve the issue go to a more powerful (Wolff +10) mag spring.
Note: The ramp has suffered significant damage. That is your fault. You did not cease operation when you knew there was an issue.
A feed ramp insert is available from EGW. It will cost about $200 to have it installed.
You and your type of problem are my favorite to run into at gun shows. I can fix it with less than $20 worth of parts and under an hour of my time.
As to those who are disappointed with Kimber's service, why on earth would you send a gun back to the factory unless it is so out of spec and the holes don't line up?
1911s are very simple machines. Just fix it.
And never, ever, feed them crappy ammo like American Eagle or Blazer. That is just asking for trouble.
I can't believe someone would buy a high-end gun and feed it budget ammo. Does that make sense? Like I'll buy a Vette and run it on kerosene.
If you want to sell it I'll give you $200 less than you paid - and sell it for $400 more.
Repeat after me: The 1911 is a very simple machine, the 1911 is a very simple machine...
Lone_Gunman
Member
Man, loop you have an attitude don't you.
I have never heard of any company voiding the warranty based on the type of magazines you use in the gun. Have you actually seen a company do this, or are you just blowing smoke?
The ramp looks to me like it could probably be polished back into good shape, without using the $200 ramp insert.
I am curious why you think American Eagle or CCI Blazer are too crappy to shoot in a Kimber? I have shot them through higher end guns without a Kimber. They are not the best ammo out there, but they are functional.
I guess because most people feel that a company should stand behind their product, and you shouldnt have to pay extra to get a gun to work. Also, not everyone has the skills to diagnose and fix every problem.
You seemed concerned earlier about voiding the warranty because of the magazines. I will guarantee that if you got to working on your gun and installing feed ramp inserts, you will void your warranty. Ever think of that?
I have never heard of any company voiding the warranty based on the type of magazines you use in the gun. Have you actually seen a company do this, or are you just blowing smoke?
The ramp looks to me like it could probably be polished back into good shape, without using the $200 ramp insert.
I am curious why you think American Eagle or CCI Blazer are too crappy to shoot in a Kimber? I have shot them through higher end guns without a Kimber. They are not the best ammo out there, but they are functional.
I guess because most people feel that a company should stand behind their product, and you shouldnt have to pay extra to get a gun to work. Also, not everyone has the skills to diagnose and fix every problem.
You seemed concerned earlier about voiding the warranty because of the magazines. I will guarantee that if you got to working on your gun and installing feed ramp inserts, you will void your warranty. Ever think of that?
highlander 5
Member
A pistol that's has to have a SPECIFIC brand of magazine to work!!??. I'm no expert by any means but I have 2 1911s a Para LTC and a full size S&W I have used Para,S&W and Wilson mags interchangeably in my pistols and have had no problems with either pistol functioning normally.
rbernie
Contributing Member
It cannot. The frame is anodized and does not polish well. The metal displaced by the follower is too deep, and the craters cannot be removed without irrevocably and negatively altering the feedramp angles.
Alloy 1911s have an issue with either standard or split followers digging into the bottom of the frame's feed ramp during recoil. The original JMB-created frame and magazine design presumes that steel will be used. When aluminum is used for the frame without altering any of the other intertwined components, this peening of the ramp by the follower is the result.
The three solutions to this problem are either use bullnose followers in the magazines (I prefer the Metalforms, if you go this route), get a steel insert placed into the feedramp, or use a ramped barrel.
All of my alloy 1911 pistols are set up with ramped barrels for just this reason.
Having said all this - the OPs pistol looks servicable and I would simply switch to rounded bullnose followers in the magazines and move on to diagnosing the feed issue.
Lone_Gunman
Member
The only place I am seeing much metal missing from the ramp is in the blue circle. But I do not believe this should affect function, as it is caused by the metal follower, and I don't think a bullet would even come into contact with that area, would it? I agree that the metal follower is to blame and I have seen this on other 1911s also, including a Colt LW commander that I own, which has an aluminum frame. It does not affect operation though, because the bullet feeds into the chamber above that point, and only to follower makes contact there. The other two areas look like blemishes, that have not resulted in loss of metal. I don't see a reason to spend $200 on a steel insert to correct a problem that should not affect function. Wilson magazines with the plastic follower do not cause this problem in alloy 1911s either and are always a good choice.
If you are referring to the dings circled in blue below, I clearly stated that they were present when I bought the gun new (unused) from my Kimber dealer. I pointed them out to the (well established) store owner and he said such marks were common from the factory since they fire test rounds before shipping. I used only the OEM Kimber mag for the first 500 rounds which included many FTF's. After the first 100 rounds (several FTF's), I returned the gun to the dealer gunsmith and asked if the dings could be causing misfeeds. He basically said "no problems, needs to be broken in", "mildly" tweeked the extractor, greased it up with STOS and returned it. Having read the manual cover to cover (500 round break-in period), I chalked it up to break in and kept putting rounds through it and cleaning it to "break it in". At around 500 rounds (still FTF's), I called Kimber and was told it was my form. Asked two shooting instructors at the range and they said my form was decent and shouldn't contribute to FTF's. At the recommendation of local shooting range employees, the Chip M mag and 24 lb spring went in at this time (BTW, the CM mag did not make any observable change in the dings). Problem was worse, so I went with the Wilson mag and stock 22 lb spring which seemed to have greatly improved the FTF rate over a short 50 round session. At about 600 rounds, I took it to a second gunsmith who said the ramp dings shouldn't be causing FTF's and proceeded to "mildly" tweek the extractor.
Answers I've been looking for.
Since day one, I've asked Kimber, 2 gunsmiths and 2 shooting instructors about the dings/FTF's... I've tried to follow the advice of everyone that seemed informed without trying to cut budget corners. As I said, I'm a newb.
Judging by your online attitude to a newb, you wouldn't get any of my business. I'd keep looking for someone that knows how to deal with Kimbers and with people.
I'm not trying to take a "budget" approach to self defense. I asked my dealer what ammo to use, and that's what he gave me. I tried some Wincheseter and Remington along with American Eagle (all 230 gr FMJ) yesterday - seemed like the AE worked best. I'm open to suggestion.
On a side note, the stock 22 lb spring (probably getting soft by now) and Wilson mag yielded no FTF's (outside operator error) over 250 total rounds of the AE, Winchester and Remington ammo yesterday. Maybe it was a mag or extractor problem all along, but I'll still experiment with a 20 lb recoil spring as a test.
As for buying a Vette, I chose to buy a .45 after reading articles like this. After checking out dozens of .45's at 4 different dealers, I could have been happy with a few different models, but I chose this one because my wife found it easiest to manipulate - in case of emergency.
Sapper771
Member
Loop,
Any firearm manufacturer that states that the use of aftermarket magaiznes in a pistol voids the warranty will definitely not be standing behind their products.
Sounds like that is their "escape route" out of helping their customers.
I dont believe this to be true of Kimber, even though I have a very dismal view of them.
Most manufacturers of 1911 style pistols know that the moderate to serious users of the 1911 already have a good collections of high quality magazines, thus it is an understanding.
As far as shooting "crappy" ammo in a high quality firearm, I do it. I do it because I want the security in knowing that my $2200 Wilson Combat CQB will shoot wolf, blazer, and blazer brass. I want to know that my firearm can shoot the "crap" because there very well may be a time where the "crap" is all you can get a hold of.
SkippyM,
I am a simple minded gun plumber, I have nothing more than hands on experience when it comes to 1911's, so in this , I can only offer my simple opinion to your problem.
Like it has been previously stated, if you have a 4" gun, run 18#-20# recoil spring in it. From the looks of your pics, it looks like the slide is forcing the nose of the round into the feed ramp where it locks up and FTFs. I also agree with the posters who stated that a stronger magazine spring should be used. I would suggest wilson combat magazines. I am also a big fan of the fluff and buff . I would take some very fine grit sand paper or emory cloth and polish up the feed ramp on the frame, but not too much. Like stated before, I am no professional.
Any firearm manufacturer that states that the use of aftermarket magaiznes in a pistol voids the warranty will definitely not be standing behind their products.
Sounds like that is their "escape route" out of helping their customers.
I dont believe this to be true of Kimber, even though I have a very dismal view of them.
Most manufacturers of 1911 style pistols know that the moderate to serious users of the 1911 already have a good collections of high quality magazines, thus it is an understanding.
As far as shooting "crappy" ammo in a high quality firearm, I do it. I do it because I want the security in knowing that my $2200 Wilson Combat CQB will shoot wolf, blazer, and blazer brass. I want to know that my firearm can shoot the "crap" because there very well may be a time where the "crap" is all you can get a hold of.
SkippyM,
I am a simple minded gun plumber, I have nothing more than hands on experience when it comes to 1911's, so in this , I can only offer my simple opinion to your problem.
Like it has been previously stated, if you have a 4" gun, run 18#-20# recoil spring in it. From the looks of your pics, it looks like the slide is forcing the nose of the round into the feed ramp where it locks up and FTFs. I also agree with the posters who stated that a stronger magazine spring should be used. I would suggest wilson combat magazines. I am also a big fan of the fluff and buff . I would take some very fine grit sand paper or emory cloth and polish up the feed ramp on the frame, but not too much. Like stated before, I am no professional.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
From the looks of the pictures, the problem is stemming from the worn or mis-machined area at the top of the feed ramp guiding the bullet nose straight into the barrel ramp.
That pushes the barrel forward and up prematurely, causing a 3-Point Jam. Since it's an issue with the frame ramp geometry, it's not a fix for an amateur. It should go to a pro for a feed ramp insert.
Chuck Rogers/Rogers Precision or George Smith at Evolution Gun Works
are your best choices for this type of work.
That pushes the barrel forward and up prematurely, causing a 3-Point Jam. Since it's an issue with the frame ramp geometry, it's not a fix for an amateur. It should go to a pro for a feed ramp insert.
Chuck Rogers/Rogers Precision or George Smith at Evolution Gun Works
are your best choices for this type of work.
Peakbagger46
Member
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- Jan 1, 2009
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I used to have a 3" Kimber. Did the break-in process, and it still jamed like no other. I WOULD NOT trust my life, be they beautiful and accurate guns as they are, to a kimber. I ended up selling mine at a big loss and bought a reliable sig P239.
If I understand what you're saying, the pictures above are misleading in the way I had the pistol configured (no recoil assembly). Here's a pic with the gun fully assembled, slide locked back, barrel pushed back and 250 additional rounds through the gun - about 1,000 rounds total now since new.
I then disassembled the gun and made the measurement you suggested in this post. Barrel flat on frame, arm through link, barrel pushed as far back as possible - caliper is set to 0.032".
Feed ramp - barrel ramp problem?
BTW, the vast majority of FTF's never even got near the barrel; the face of the bullet ball just jammed (pointed slightly downward) against the feed ramp face. It was almost like the slide hit the round too hard or there was too much friction between the feeding bullet and the next - causing the feeding bullet to rotate down rather than feed forward.....
But again, over the last 250 rounds with stock 22 lb recoil spring, Wilson mag, two extractor tweeks (using AE, Rem and Win 230 FMJ), the FTF's seem to have disappeared... Another 250 or so rounds may tell the story.
gmh1013
Member
Im so glad I got rid of mine a few years ago.... bought it with high hopes but it was a failure.
Sent back 2 times and Kimber could not fix it.
Sent back 2 times and Kimber could not fix it.
RogersPrecision
Member
loop,
I'm in Northern Arizona and I believe I have had to repair a number of guns that you 'have worked on'!
I'm in Northern Arizona and I believe I have had to repair a number of guns that you 'have worked on'!
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