Kimber Products Really That Good?

[Jeff White]

I am currently carrying a Warrior as a duty weapon. So far it's been 100% reliable. I use Wilson magazines. My only complaint is that the Kimpro finish isn't as durable as I would like. I've carried my Warrior daily since 10 June 05 and it's already showing a lot of wear.

Jeff

 

[DHart]

I totally agree with Bobby... except that I've found the new Colts to be perfectly reliable, never a "break-in" required for good functioning. And what makes them especially attractive as compared to Kimber is the quality of the parts and the steel. Kimbers small parts are almost entirely made by MIM whereas only three parts on current Colts are MIM... Colt offers higher quality small parts and their steel is very high grade.

Also, Colts assembly fit is just right, not too tight nor too loose. Typically you can fire hundreds of rounds with a Colt 1911 without the residue build up causing any malfunctions... most of the overly tight fitting 1911's can begin to malfunction when the round count gets up to fifty or more.

Guns with super reliablility (Glocks and SIGs for example) exhibit a fit tolerance which allows for residue build up without causing malfunctions. Colt knows how important this is in a fighting 1911 - they've been building fighting 1911's for going on 100 years. They have learned just what fitting tolenances make for super reliability.

Many consumers have come to believe that very tight fitting 1911's are somehow desireable. This quest for tight fitting (consumers come to expect it and manufacturers tend to respond to that) is one of the reasons why today there is a general feeling that 1911's tend to be unreliable.

For a defense gun, a degree of tolerance in fitting makes for reliability and reliability is #1 with a defense gun. For a long distance bulls-eye competition gun, accuracy will play more importance, but many times that quest results in a compromise of reliability. Accuracy is mostly a function of barrel fit to slide, not slide fit to frame.

Another compromise to reliability occurred when Kimber adopted the Schwartz system... a system Colt tried for a short while and then rejected in favor of the Series 80 system which has proven to be exceptionally reliable. Numerous Kimber Series II guns have experienced grip safeties being depressed enough to allow the hammer to fall, but not tightly enough to free up the firing pin - result - hammer falls, gun does not go boom. I far prefer a Series 70 or Series 80 design to the Schwartz design.

 

[exgun]

Kimber reliable?

If there is a better or more reliable pistol than my Kimber Eclipse, I have never seen itl After a career in the army and law enforcement, it is the best I have ever experienced.

 

[deputy tom]

Gunmeister,I've been trading my kimbers in for Springfields and NOT top of the line Springfields if that gives you an indicator.I do have a pre-series II Pro-Carry that I might wind up keeping/or not.tom.

 

[Gunmeister]

Thanks for all the info guys, sounds to me that almost any 1911 needs more tweeking and tinkering than I'm prepared to do. I guess I'll stick to what I'm familier with--Glock.
Again, thanks all. JW

 

[Father Knows Best]

How did you get that conclusion from the responses above? There are lots of good quality 1911s out there that won't require any tweaking or tinkering out of the box. As I mentioned, I bought two Paras in the last year, and both have been excellent with no work done to them at all. I should add that I've also purchased a Colt 1911 recently, and it has needed no work.

People just pointed out that there are some bad apples, even from good companies. That's true of every production gun. I've seen bad Glocks and SIGs, just like I've seen bad 1911s.

If you want a 1911, get one. But as with any other gun, or any manufactured product for that matter, understand that you're taking a risk. It might not be perfect. Just as new cars often have to go back to the dealer to get things fixed, new guns may need some adjustment or repairs. If you go with a quality brand, however, the odds are very good that it will work just fine right out of the box. If you want to be absolutely sure, try before you buy. Don't buy over the 'net. Buy from a dealer who will let you handle and examine the individual gun. If it doesn't feel or sound right, don't buy it. Once you buy it, if you have trouble with it, ask the dealer to make it right by exchanging it, returning it or arranging to have the manufacturer repair it.

 

[Bobby Lee]

If you want a 1911, get one. But as with any other gun, or any manufactured product for that matter, understand that you're taking a risk. It might not be perfect. Just as new cars often have to go back to the dealer to get things fixed, new guns may need some adjustment or repairs

You are taking much more of a risk that it will not be right when buying a new 1911 than a Sig, Glock, H&K or a few other modern designs.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Ten years ago I bought a new Kimber .45acp. It would not feed hollowpoints reliably. At least one in every mag would high angle jam. I did not have a gunsmith or the help of the internet, so I sold it. Maybe they're better now.
P.S. I did not have any better luck with their rimfire rifles.
Bought a Glock and a CZ. All better now.

 

[Stasher1]

My Stainless Pro Carry II is the most unreliable gun I've ever owned and an utter disappointment. I paid almost $700 for a "carry gun" that I can't trust to go bang when I need it to.

I've thought about selling it several times, but I think I'll just keep saving my nickels so I can have a decent 'smith rework this POS into what it should've been to start with. Until then, I'll carry my CZ P-01...which has been flawless.

 

[DHart]

Stasher... I had a Kimber which was unreliable. I sent it to Kimber twice to be corrected and neither effort did the trick. I finally sent it to a reknown 1911 pistolsmith for reliability work... it became better but still had the occasional bobble... my recommendation to you would be to not put any more money into that Kimber you've got... you'll never get the money back out and it still may never run right. Bail out and don't look back. I wish I'd done that early on with my Kimber, I could never sell it for what I put into it and I won't trust it with my life... shoulda dumped it long ago.

My Browning Hi-Powers and Colt 1911's have run like tops... extremely reliable and trouble free. Should mention I have three of the former and about twenty of the latter!

 

[lyricsdad]

my walther p99 has has a maybe 1500 or so rounds through it w/ no problems at all. ever. Knock on wood lol or is it plastic?

 

[Elmer]

Ten years ago I bought a new Kimber .45acp. It would not feed hollowpoints reliably. At least one in every mag would high angle jam. I did not have a gunsmith or the help of the internet, so I sold it. Maybe they're better now.

Stasher... I had a Kimber which was unreliable. I sent it to Kimber twice to be corrected and neither effort did the trick. I finally sent it to a reknown 1911 pistolsmith for reliability work... it became better but still had the occasional bobble... my recommendation to you would be to not put any more money into that Kimber you've got... you'll never get the money back out and it still may never run right. Bail out and don't look back. I wish I'd done that early on with my Kimber, I could never sell it for what I put into it and I won't trust it with my life... shoulda dumped it long ago.

My Stainless Pro Carry II is the most unreliable gun I've ever owned and an utter disappointment. I paid almost $700 for a "carry gun" that I can't trust to go bang when I need it to.

These are the usual opinions I get from folks who actually try and shoot them, rather than practice fast drawing out of their Tactical thigh holsters in front of the TV......

 

[Berg01]

If you expect it to run right out of the box with no modifications, I'd rather have my SW1911. But if you get a decent 'smith to work on it, the Kimbers can and should run just as good as most of the Colts, Springers, and the rest of the production grade 1911s.

AFAIK, a stock 1911 shouldn't stay that way for too long. 1911s are made to be tweaked or tuned to your own satisfaction, and there isn't one out there that I wouldn't want modified in some way, after I'd owned it for some time. And that is the beauty of the 1911.

My SW1911 was terriffic out of the box for the first year that I owned it, but now it is with my 'smith, to get the slide & frame flats polished, since I decided I don't like matte stainless, and I need a white dot on the front sight, and I want that trigger to be perfect. So I didn't hesitate to get it worked on after I'd had a good chance to shoot it unmodified for a while.

 

[Master Blaster]

These are the usual opinions I get from folks who actually try and shoot them, rather than practice fast drawing out of their Tactical thigh holsters in front of the TV......

I have two a 1999 series one custom classic target, and a 2003 TLE II.

Both have run 100% the custom classic target has about 8000+ rounds through it, its never been tweeked and has had the recoil spring changed 2x.

The TLEII has 2500+ rounds through it also without a problem or a failure.

I also own several colts and 1 springfield which is the milspec. I had to get rid of a springfield V-10 ultracompact which would not run right, but I bought it used so I sold it, with a warning to the buyer, for what I paid for it.

5 years ago I was at the local range and I saw a brand new G-17 jam solid on a local PD officer who had just bought it new. I have 2 Glocks and I had a problem with jamming on my G34 when it was new until I replaced the 10 round Clinton mags with real 17 rounders.

Kimber makes a fine pistol.

 

[Bobby Lee]

If you expect it to run right out of the box with no modifications, I'd rather have my SW1911. But if you get a decent 'smith to work on it, the Kimbers can and should run just as good as most of the Colts, Springers, and the rest of the production grade 1911s

If I pay $800 for a new pistol I expect it to be reliable without a trip to a gunsmith.

After all there are plenty of guns I can buy for half that and they will be reliable without doing anything to them.

 

[DHart]

Bobby Lee... I agree. And I don't accept the crap about a 1911 needs 500 to 1000 rounds to "break it in" before expecting reliability. Colt can make 'em so they run flawlessly right out of the box with any factory ammo, any quality brand of magazine... so I expect that of any 1911 I might buy.

To be told I need to run $150 to $300 worth of ammo through a 1911 before I can rely on it is BULLS#!T as far as I am concerned. I had a Kimber and Springfield like that... I was told to shoot up to 1000 rounds to "break them in". THat's a LOT of aggravation and expense only to find that the guns still choked under certain circumstances! Even two trips back to Kimber didn't help after ALL of that! Leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. Though I do love my early Kimber Stainless which runs like a top and now sports high grade quality fire control components (most of the MIM is gone):

•MIM Hammer & sear replaced with C&S Tactical II Forged Tool steel parts

•MIM extractor replaced with stainless steel extractor

•MIM Thumb safety replaced with Colt GI-style thumb safety (not shown in pics)

•MIM slide stop replaced with forged steel slide stop (not shown in pics)

•Plastic MSH replaced with Colt stainless, serrated, arched MSH

•Full length guide rod replaced with Colt GI-style short recoil guide (not shown in pics)

•Trigger replaced with Casull short, solid trigger

NEW PICS NEEDED!

But NO more Kimbers for me... most certainly NO Series II models.

That's why I keep coming back to Colt from the other brands I've purchased. Reliability with a wide range of ammo and mags is far more important to me than ANYthing else. I don't care about 1" groups at 25 yards.... that's not for me... from a 1911 I just want ultra reliable functioning and no fussiness about ammo brands, ammo types or magazine brands... along with reasonably good accuracy. Box-stock Colts tend to do that with ease over and over again!

 

[Jeff White]

Elmer said;

These are the usual opinions I get from folks who actually try and shoot them, rather than practice fast drawing out of their Tactical thigh holsters in front of the TV......

Hmmm....the Marines seem to be pretty happy with the 100 they bought. They have a pretty high round count on them but they do use Safariland 6004 holsters .

The Warrior is essentially the same pistol only it has the rail frame instead of the Dawson Rail (Pat Rogers told me that he'd have specified the rail frame had it been available when he spec'd out the Kimbers the Marines bought) and different grips.

Kimber 1911s are the choice of many police officers who can carry a 1911 type pistol and Chris Corino, Kimber's LE rep is a former police officer and works very hard to make sure that they are putting out a product that is suitable for defensive use. Chris goes as far as recommending the right duty ammunition for both reliability and terminal effects. No other manufacturer that I am aware of does that. I have been involved in the purchase of both Smith and Wesson and Glock duty weapons and niether manufacturer cared what duty ammo you intended to use.

The thing wrong with most 1911s is that they are not put in a holster and forget weapons. They are an old design and even with modern materials require regular preventative maintenance. They also require ammunition to be of the correct overall length to function reliably.

Too many shooters look at the beautiful photos of custom 1911s in the gun rags and go out and purchase one, then expect it to perform, without giving any consideration to selecting the proper ammunition, magazines and performing preventative maintenance.

If you want a 1911 type for defensive purposes, you need to look long and hard at what your needs are. many of the necessary features you find on the race guns that shoot incredibly tiny groups also cause decreased reliability. Don't buy a weapon with all those features and expect it to function like a weapon close to the original specs.

Colt still produces most of their 1911s without all those features. This may contribute to the perception that they are more reliable out of the box then 1911s from other manufacturers. however in most cases, it's an apples and oranges discussion.

Carrying a 1911 from any manufacturer isn't for everyone. If you're not willing to keep a log and replaces springs etc at a regular interval, then carry a Glock or HK, Sig or some other auto for defensive purposes.

If the superior ergonmics of a 1911 type are a good enough trade off for the preventative maintenance that goes with a 1911 then by all means carry one.

Everyone's 1911 requires preventative maintenance to be reliable. It's the nature of the beast. Let's just be careful to compare pistols of like types before making blanket statements about reliability.

Jeff

 

[DHart]

Jeff.... I'll second what you're saying about the 1911 not being for everyman... they are a specialists weapon in my view. If one chooses to buy a 1911 I think one should be prepared to learn a LOT about the weapon... they tend to be much more demanding of skill, knowledge, and maintenance than the typical semi-auto. But given the commitment and attention, they are amazingly wonderful guns indeed.

 

[Elmer]

Hmmm....the Marines seem to be pretty happy with the 100 they bought.

Jeff, can't say for sure about the Marine pistols, but the official line and the truth can be quite a bit different in these cases. Talk to someone in the inside at LAPD SWAT about their guns. Or call Denver PD, who just banned them. Or San Diego PD.

And how much of the Marine guns were non-Kimber parts?

 

[TimboKhan]

my opinion on this is that yes, they are good guns, but they are made very tight, which I always thought was contrary to the 1911 design, and occasionally you will have a problem with them. My biggest issue with the Kimbers is very simple, and thats just that I think they are too darn expensive, and that opinion carries over to virtually all of the high end custom 1911 makers. I love 1911's, but I will never spend 2500.00$ (or even a 1000.00$) on what I believe should be maybe a 600.00$ gun. Now, thats just my opinion, so take it for whats its worth.

Timbo

P. S. For my opinion in a commander-size "Operators" version, it will run you about 1795.00.

 

[TimboKhan]

Talk to someone in the inside at LAPD SWAT about their guns. Or call Denver PD, who just banned them. Or San Diego PD.

Hey Elmer, I just noticed your post. First, I live in CO, and had no idea that the DPD banned 1911's, so that was good info. What are you saying about the LAPD SWAT team? Have they been unhappy with their guns?

Timbo

 

[DHart]

What a police agency decided to purchase for firearms does not impress me. Many tout agency purchases as evidence of high quality... but I don't see it that way. Many of the products bought en masse by governmental agencies for their employees to use are anything but what I would want for myself. There are a great many factors which influence public agency purchase decisions, with quality not being at the top of the list.

Governmental agency purchase decisions, especially of guns, are the LAST reference point I would personally look to for my own firearms purchase decisions.

 

[Justang]

I got my Custom II for $607. I pick it up Saturday.

I did lots of research and basically narrowed it down to the Kimber or Springfield in the price range I wanted to pay. It seems to be just like a Ford vs. Chevy thing. People have their brands and stick by them. Both had MIM parts, I've read both have had to go back to their manufactures for repairs, I've read both were very reliable, and both were not reliable, and so on. When it came time to buy I decided on the Kimber because it was cheaper, almost $100 cheaper for the comparable Springer. This is my first 1911, I shoot HK's. After a while I would like to buy a Springer, and a Colt, and maybe some others. But for the price, you really can't beat it.

 

[Jeff White]

Elmer,
I will check with Pat Rogers as to the exact content of the Marine pistols, but I believe the Novak sights, Simonivich "Gunner" grips, the Dawson Rail and the grip safety were the only non-spec parts.

Do you know the story of the Denver PD ban? It seems it revolved around Denver PD wanting to issue ammunition that had a too short OAL to function reliably in anyone's 1911.

Here is the Denver PD letter that started it all:

DENVER POLICE DEPARTMENT
INTER-DEPARTMENT
CORRESPONDENCE



TO: All Personnel
FROM: Chief Firearms Officer [name witheld]

DATE: 04/11/05

SUBJECT: Kimber Semi Auto De-Authorization Process

Kimber Manufacturing recently advised the Denver Police Department that the “Kimber 1911” pistol is guaranteed to function only if certain types of ammunition are used. A letter from Kimber states in part, “ammunition choice and maintenance is critical….If an agency deviates from this list, (of approved ammo), Kimber will not guarantee the pistols will function.” None of the ammunition specified by Kimber is approved or issued by the Denver Police Department. Prior to receipt of this letter, Kimber had not informed DPD of ammunition requirements, except in printed manuals that specify using “…only high quality, original factory-manufactured ammunition...of the (proper) caliber…”

Based on this new information, as of 04/15/05, Kimber handguns will no longer be authorized for use. Every officer and deputy currently approved to carry a Kimber 1911 must immediately respond to the Firearms Section, where their weapons will be inspected and their duty ammunition will be replaced temporarily with Winchester SXT .45 ACP.

The numbers of officers and deputies authorized to carry Kimbers include:
Kimber Government = 62 police officers and 13 deputy sheriffs, and
Kimber Commander = 11 police officers and 3 deputy sheriffs.
(Some personnel own both models, and records show that only about 30 personnel qualified with Kimbers during the most recent quarter).

Officers and deputies who are currently authorized, may continue to carry the Kimber 1911 with the replacement ammunition until 01-01-06, when they must transition to a handgun authorized on the Firearms Section approved weapon list.

The Firearms Section researched the Kimber list of approved ammunition, and determined that the Winchester SXT .45 ACP is most effective. This round is slightly less desirable than the Gold Dot +P HP ammo currently issued, because of the aggressive hollow point design, wide expansion and bonded jacket features of the Gold Dot.

Although an inconvenience to Kimber owners, the Firearms Section must pursue this course of action. The intent is to provide the most effective ammunition available that is guaranteed to function with the weapon, while allowing personnel sufficient time to obtain an approved replacement weapon.

A copy of this letter must be personally served to every officer who carries a Kimber 1911 pistol, and that service must be noted in the officer’s SSR. Any further questions regarding this issue can be directed to Chief Firearms Officer.

Here is the letter from Kimber that prompted this:

Kimber Mfg., Inc would like to thank you for considering the purchase of our firearms. Before you purchase the pistols there are some characteristics that are unique to 1911 pistols; and specifically Kimber pistols. In order to validate the warranty, the agency must be willing to abide by the requirements stated below. These will be strictly adhered to by Kimber. This policy helps the agency assimilate the new pistols, and Kimber to quickly and efficiently respond to any issues that may arise.


Kimber 1911 pistols are built to much tighter tolerances than most pistols, including a tight barrel, and slide to frame fit. Therefore ammunition choice & maintenance is critical. At the end of this policy is a list of ammunition that is proven to work in Kimber pistols. If an agency deviates from this list Kimber will not guarantee the pistols will function. If you have a question about ammo call first! We will be happy to answer any questions and have extensive knowledge of what works and what does not in the 1911 platform.

All pistols are function tested at the factory before they are shipped.


Requirements for an agency sale

The Agency must have or be willing to send someone to take a Kimber1911 armorers course. A Colt 1911 or Spring Field armorer’s course will also be acceptable.

Abide by approved ammo list.

The pistols will arrive 10 at a time.

The firearm instructor/armorer will test the pistols before they are issued. The person assigned to test the pistols prior to issuing will have a designated Point of Contact at Kimber. If there are any questions it will be resolved prior to the pistols being deployed.

The agency should mark the magazines & test them with the individual gun they are to be used with.

Recoil springs must be changed at the required intervals as stated in the manuals.

A nominal break in period of several hundred rounds of ball ammunition is required before the pistol can be considered duty ready.


Once again a Kimber 1911 is very different in performance and requirements from other pistols. Kimber Mfg., Inc wants your business, but also wants educated and happy customers. By following the stated policy Kimber firmly believes agencies will find the adoption and transition to Kimber 1911 pistols to be smooth and trouble free.



The following ammo is approved for Kimber 1911 pistols. +P ammo is not recommended.

Training Ammo
230 grn ball – Winchester white box
230 grn ball – Remington UMC

Duty Ammo
230 grn HP – Federal Hydra Shock
230 grn HP – Winchester SXT
230 grn HP – Winchester Ranger Series
230 grn HP – Golden Sabre
230 grn HP – Speer Gold Dot

Sincerely

Chris Corino
Law Enforcement Sales Coordinator

This issue cause quite a stir on the internet, although I didn't see anything about it here at THR. Here is a thread from Tactical Forums about the issue:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001746

Here is an email I received from Chris Corino on 19 April on this issue:

Hi Jeff,
Sorry I did not get back to you sooner, our server was down so I could see the emails piling up, but could not respond.

Okay Denver PD is trying to use 200 grain + P rounds and wanted a guarantee it would function. The problem is the round does not have an overall length of 1.65, and as you know that is critical for reliability in a 1911. Hey I don’t claim to be a high speed guy but I was a cop in Florida for more than a few years. I know what it is like to have to depend on your pistol. I was not willing to do that, so I was honest and told them no.

First the round needs to be a 230 grn. That is what the pistol is designed for, next the overall length has to be 1.65. Now most of the guys were not having problems with the round. But I know the round is wrong for a 1911, any 1911, and said that.

But they just happen to have 75,000 rounds of 230 grn Speer Gold Dot HP in house. Why they did not tell me that right off the bat I have no idea, it could have saved us all a lot of trouble, I spent hours with them on this. That round is just fine, they are going to get a letter from me saying it is good to go and we will all go back to our happy little routines.

If you have ANY questions just let me know.

Be Safe!

Chris Corino

Dr. Gary Roberts posted this in the thread on Tactical Forums:

While I am no fan of Kimber's Series II type "safety system" and their use of low-end parts for some items, I have no problem with Kimber's position on this issue, as it is specifically caused by the problematic Speer 200 gr +P Gold Dot. This atrocious load is out of spec and offers poor performance, as has been documented here at TF. The better question is why Denver PD would jeopardize their officers' safety by issuing such POS ammo for use in reasonably decent pistols...

There it is, the entire story of the Denver PD ban of Kimber pistols. You all can read it and make up your own mind. This is from an email I received from Chris Corino on 2 May 05 on this issue. I have deleted the portion dealing with the thread on Tactical Forums:

Personally I would rather have fewer guys carrying our guns than risking a guys life, even if it cost us sales. That is how I wrote it, to even make some think twice and know what they are getting into. It has worked so far, cost a few sales, so be it. I can sleep at night and that is what counts most.

Thanks again, time for me to pull the plug.

Chris

That tells me all I need to know about Kimber's dedication to putting out a reliable product. They are aware that a 1911 isn't everyone's cup of tea. They are aware that the design requires more preventative maintenance then most people are willing to do. They are concerned that their weapons work when needed. It seems like they are much more concerned about their weapons being reliable then say...Glock. Google for the NYPD Glock 19 problems sometime. You'll see a fine example of how the company that wants their pistols to be associated with the American police officer the way the Smith and Wesson revolver was in the 50s and 60s handled a reliability problem with a large customer....

I don't know anyone with LAPD D Platoon, but I have heard second and third hand that they have no complaints with the Kimbers that they purchased.

Metal Injection Molding has come a long way in the last several years. You might be surprised what other manufacturers use MIM parts that you aren't aware of. If you don't like Kimber, Colt, HK, Jennings, Smith and Wesson or any other manufactrers guns, that's fine. It's a free country, no one says you have to buy one.

I have found my Kimber to be as reliable as my Series 70 Colt.

Jeff

 

[larry starling]

IMHO NO. Have owned 3 kimbers and gotten rid of all of them. The only one that was a keeper out of the bunch was a series 1 Tle with internal extractor.The other two were series 2 guns a tactical custom and a eclipse, had problems with both....so to make a long story short sold both off to purchase colts. All of my 25+ colts run flawlessly right out of the box. I cant say that with other 1911's I have Owned.... :banghead: