Kinder, gentler torture tests

[BHPshooter]

I've been reading "The Browning High Power Pistols" By R. Blake Stevens, where it mentions the course of fire for the French Service Pistol trials:

The course of fire at the Concours de Pistolets was roughly 1,000 rounds from each pistol entered, as follows:

• 10 cartridges for measurement of muzzle velocity
• 10 cartridges from a rest for accuracy at 15 metres
• A functioning and endurance trial of 950 rounds from each pistol, during which no disassembly, cleaning, oiling, or replacement of parts was allowed.

This got me thinking... Most of the "torture tests" that you read about nowadays has more to do with soaking the gun in mud (tip of the hat to 1911Tuner) or running over it with a truck. I've never understood how some people can stand to do that with thier pistols, but this seems like something that is doable.

Has anybody ever personally done this? I'm aware of a couple of tests like this, one of which was a Springfield Mil-Spec 1911 written of on the 1911forum, but I'm interested in doing one myself.

It would really be neat to see more people do this with pistols that you don't often see it done with. I'd personally like to see ones other than the usual Glocks or 1911s, like P7s, USPs, Ruger p-series, P-35s, Springfield XDs... all the way to Makarovs and even revolvers!

Would anyone else be interested to see things like this? I think it would make a cool forum project.

I'd like to hear what you think.
Wes

"The Browning High Power Pistol," by R. Blake Stevens, Collector Grade Publications, 1984, Pp. 43.

 

[esheato]

It wasn't an official torture test, but I shot a case of Wolff .45 ACP through a Ruger P90 in one afternoon. The gun had sat for a few months on my shelf, when I decided to put it through it's paces. Went and bought a case (500 rounds) and shot the whole thing. That gun didn't have any problems, yet my Kimber couldn't even finish a magazine without choking.

Ruger doesn't build the prettiest guns. Nor do they have any "soul," but they work.

Ed

 

[1911Tuner]

Kinder, Gentler

Why Fumegator! Are you insinuatin' that I'm brutal???

Tuner the Terrible

 

[BHPshooter]

Why Fumegator! Are you insinuatin' that I'm brutal???

Not that I didn't enjoy it, I just have this thing... I get attached to certain things, especially pistols. It would be very hard for me to do a good test like you did on one of my pistols.

However, I do think that I could deal with going through 1,000 rounds without cleaning, disassembling, etc.

Actually, Tuner, If it weren't for those pesky laws , I wouldn't hesitate to send you my FEG to put through the wringer. I'd really be interested to see how it would do. My Browning, on the other hand, I'm just too attached to...

Wes

 

[NMGlocker]

My Walther P99 went through a 1000 round tactical course over two days with no cleaning or additional lubrication. Zero malfunctions.
For a modern service pistol, 1000 or 2000 rounds without maintenence or malfunctions should be a breeze.
I'd put money on any pistol in my safe going 1000 rounds without a malfunction.
Of course I only buy quality pistols that are known for their reliability.
Walther P99, Glock 17, H&K P2000, etc. etc.
If your pistol can't go 1000 without choking.......... buy one that will.
I instruct NM CCW courses, it always amazes me how many people will tolerate a pistol that will not go 25 rounds without a malfunction. In any given course probably 50% of the pistols and revolvers will malfunction, and this is only shooting 25 rounds!!!

 

[1911Tuner]

A Thousand Rounds

NMGlocker said:

it always amazes me how many people will tolerate a pistol that will not go 25 rounds without a malfunction. In any given course probably 50% of the pistols and revolvers will malfunction, and this is only shooting 25 rounds!!!

Man, you said a mouthful! I've seen guys show up with a pistol that chokes about every 5th or 6th magazine...and they say somethin' like...
"I can live with that." I point out that they can also DIE with it, if
it's a carry gun.



Tuner

 

[BHPshooter]

If your pistol can't go 1000 without choking.......... buy one that will.

Quite right. Now I guess I know why "rougher" torture tests are relevant. Come to think of it, I've only had 1 stoppage from my FEG that weren't related to a bad magazine. My Browning hasn't had any.

Okay. I now realize the error of my thinking... and quite honestly, I don't know what I was thinking before.

Okay, Tuner. I'll take my floggings now.

Seriously though, I think it would be a cool Forum Project to do some mild torture testing to a diverse group of pistols and see what the results are. Anybody game?

Wes

 

[sm]

<raises hand>
I know this is going to come as shock to some of you, I can be tacky, hardheaded, and have to prove my point at times. [ GASP!]

I heard and read about the 1911 and all as a kid and being curious I subjected the 1911 to sand, mud,water snow, or leave in snow which becomes iced over. I had to know- the 1911 works.

Now I got a little tired and put out about the antiquated design, wonder lubes and bling bling flowered shirted written articles.

NIB Kimber Series I , take slide off to make sure all parts are there, where should be, bore not obstructed, etc,...and we ran 1k rds in one day b/t 4 of us shooting and filling mags. This one came in wet ...dripping wet...we never lubed it. It did fine except for me being cute and trying a 10 rd mag that it didn't like...of course that mag didn't work in any gun, it was worth a try. I found a use for said mag...made a great target.

We did another NIB Kimber Series I that came in bone dry. I used the trans fluid from my truck's dipstick to lube to tick off someone on purpose. Ran out of ammo IIRC around 750 rds in one afternoon.

Springers and Colts have similar testing with no problems. I mean a loose grip screw here or stepping on a factory mag and bending don't count - right?.

I tried to tear up a Keltec P-11 . I was asked to T&E and try to tear it up. I mean we even "scooped powder and stuck a bullet in" [ so to speak] and couldn't. I've run it so long without cleaning it is awful. I add whatever lube is handy, conventinal motor oil, syn motor oil, trans fluid, WD40 [ yikes] 3 in one oil[ more yikes] ....I think the uppity snob freaked out the day I use the sprayer at the car wash to clean, assembled and run lead reloads through it without even lubing it. I haven't seen or heard from this snob since the private range closed.

Tip: do not use the trigger for high spray...drastic plasitic will come out of the floor mat clamps on the wall...whole gun kinda scoots all over the rubber mat in truck bed too.

Car wash works for removing cosmoline after hosing with Simple Green...small town car wash recommended, its cheaper than the big city ones and locals won't freak out.

Well...at least I know these guns runs. Said snob is afraid to shoot his / much less carrry his uppity high priced gun for fear of scratches. Spent $60 on wonder lubes and no money for ammo...he cleaned the thing all the time...rarely ever shot it, I know of only one mag he ran through it- just bragging rights and something to clean. I got better things to with $1700 if I had that kind of money...he on the other hand thinks I'm nuts.

 

[JohnKSa]

Shot 500 rounds of Norinco 9mm through a Glock 17 in an hour or two. Thumbs were sore from loading, trigger finger was sore from triggering.

No malfunctions of any kind. I was actually expecting trouble. That ammo wasn't exactly high quality. BTW, 500 rounds of cheap ammo in one range trip makes for a DIRTY gun. Took me quite a bit longer than normal to get it clean--especially the barrel.

Shot 200 rounds through a .44Mag Super Redhawk (not light loads either--stupid me) in a single range trip once. The skin between the thumb and forefinger of my right hand split. The gun never had any problems. Can't remember what kind of ammo it was--probably a variety.

I've probably done a couple of hundred rounds plus through a GP100 on several range trips. 125gr JHP Federal. Never had a problem.

I've done 400 rounds in a session through a Beretta 92FS on a couple of occasions with no problems.

Did about 400 rounds in a session with an H&K USP and WWB 9mm. No problems. Had three shooters helping that day so no one got sore.

Quite frankly, it gets kind of expensive to go to the range and shoot several hundred rounds of ammo--even cheap ammo. Also, as pointed out above, it's not all that enjoyable. I'm not as durable as the gun and I start to get sore after a few hundred rounds. I shoot primarily for enjoyment, so getting sore is contrary to my goal...

Malfunctions I have encountered in my shooting "career."

Ruger P89DC (Owned 3--total of 2K-4K rounds)
Failed to chamber 3-5 rounds of S&B 9mm
Failed to chamber a round or two of American 9mm
I think the chamber is cut a tiny bit on the tight side in these guns.
This is the gun I use to shoot really crappy ammo I get really good deals on. I'm not afraid of blowing it up. So, it only gets shot with really cruddy ammo. I think if I fed it good stuff it would never choke.

H&K USP (Owned 1--total of 2K-3K rounds)
Failure to extract 2 rounds out of one 100 round box of WWB 9mm. This has never occurred before or since with that ammo or any other ammo. Don't know what was the deal. This happened during a match so I couldn't stop and examine the cases. I dropped the slide and the cases extracted manually when I worked the slide.

Beretta 92 (Owned 3--total of 3K-4K rounds)
One of these had a couple of failures to feed (slide stops with the round still in the mag) when stripping the first round from a brand new 10 round mag from slide lock using the slide release. Once the mag springs relax this never happens. Also never happens with the slingshot technique. Never happens with hi-caps.

Walther PPK Interarms .380 (Owned 1--total of about 1K rounds)
When it was new it was difficult to chamber the first round from a full mag. No malfunctions during actual shooting.

Glocks (Owned 4--total of 3K-5K rounds)
None

GP100 (Owned 2--total of 3K-5K rounds)
None

Super Redhawk (Owned 2--total of 500-800 rounds)
None

Swedish Lahti (Owned 1--total of 500-1K rounds)
None

Bulgarian Mak (Owned 2--total of 500-1K rounds)
None

CZ-52 (Owned 2--total of about 1K rounds)
None

Kel-Tec P32 (Owned 1--total of 200-400 rounds)
None

Beretta Model 86 (Owned 1--total of about 1K rounds)
None

 

[BHPshooter]

Alright... the more I think about this thread, the more I know that I must be retarded.

1000 rounds? That's like... being "forced" to sit through Indiana Jones movies -- easy as pie, and more enjoyable than anything.

What was I thinking? What is my problem?

*sigh*
Wes

 

[1911Tuner]

Torture Test: The Aftermath

Howdy funegator,

I can understand your reluctance to beat on your gun overmuch....but
the GI Springer is none the worse for the effort. It's not skinned or dinged, and if ya didn't know what it had endured, you wouldn't know it by eyeballin' it. The finish is intact...The slide to frame fit is still tight...
and the gun is slicker and smoother in operation that it was before
I started the test...even with the slurry treatment that I did to
relieve the tight spot. It looks like it's straight out of the box...but
it is WELL broken in... WIth the small parts upgrade, I would trust the gun for duty or carry...and that's sayin' a lot, me bein' anal-retentive over
reliability like I am.

Luck!

Tuner

 

[wally]

If I was needing to shoot even 10's of rounds with lives at stake any handgun would be the last thing I'd be bring to the party!

For self-defense where my life might suddenly be at stake, "have a gun" is rule one. Small, light, and powerful handguns to be able to always meet rule 1 are necessarily less reliable than full size service pistols -- which IMHO are mostly only relavent for police and military personal, but even then if I could get resupplied with pistol ammo I'd rather they bring me a rifle instead!

As long as a handgun is always 100% reliable with the amount of ammo I can carry its good enough. If its size and weight lets me abide rule 1 and it shoots up all the ammo I'm carrying, I could care less if I have to clean it afterwards to make it reliable again.

Other than carry guns, I just wipe 'em down and clean them only when I start having problems or they just don't feel as smooth as they should be. I doubt I have any full or mid size guns that can't go a case without cleaning -- for some its been several years since they were cleaned and can't remember when I've taken one to the range and had problems other than with the mags.

My problems always seem to be with guns when they are brand new, or when something breaks on one of my old favorites after many 1000's of (cheap!) rounds so I don't think this is much of a test, let alone a torture test of the gun. Now firing 1000 rounds of .357 ammo thru my SC360 Scandium would be serious torture for the shooter!

--wally.

 

[Cameron Lamont]

I have run about 2000 rounds through my USP COmpact without cleaning.

I would wipe the outside off with a damp rag and holster it when I left the range.

HEad back to the range in a few days shot another 500 rounds of so wipe it off so my holster didn't get dirty and carry it for the rest of the week.

I got to a little over 2000 rounds and decided that I should clean it, as the dirt was starting to bug me. Never failed, never malfunctioned, never had a problem.


I have a new Colt 1991 put 480 rounds through it the first day without adding any lube etc. Funstioned flwlessly, my next outing I would like to put another 500 through it.

Regards,
Cameron

 

[JohnKSa]

Thefumegator,

Have you ever run 1K rounds through a gun in a single range session?

I've been shooting for a lot of years and have never even come close--not even with a rimfire. I have guns that I have owned for years that still don't have 1K rounds through them.

I'm not trying to convince people not to do it, I'm just saying that it's not something I would enjoy doing. Besides the fact that you're talking about blowing well over $100 just on ammo for a single range trip, I think it's going to be at the least tiring, and at the worst painful.

If you weren't quite as picky as I am, you might be able to do it in several visits by leaving the gun without cleaning between range trips. I can't do that, it would drive me nuts...

Not trying to rain on your parade or say that it's a bad idea, I'm just putting in my 2 cents based on my own personal (and limited?) experience.

Good shooting,

John

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Yes 1000 rnds can be done in a session or in one day easy. I do it somewhat routinely, but lately it has been a bit less then that.

Today it was 750 rnds out of a dan wesson revolver.
Saturday it was 650 rnds out of my pre-25 (230 grn hardball which did get a bit fatiguing).

I have shot over 1200 rnds in one day out of my 229 sport and over 1500 total 10mm's (750 out of my 10mm Les Baer and 800 our of my DW Razorback) in one day.


It depends upon your style and time. I am usually pressed for time at the range and rarely go to the range with less then 1000 rnds. Usually I take two or three guns in the same caliber so I can reload during the target changes. I never oil during the range session and just shoot it. I had a couple of mis-fires on 22LR ammo, but what the heck. No problems to speak of on the rest of them.