Largely unoriginal Colt M1911 (non-A1) Valuation

[Tallinar]

Hello,

A few years ago, I inherited my grandfather's 1911, which he shot in various steel challenge-type matches over the years. I believe he acquired it sometime in the 50's or 60's, and he shot it a lot. By my limited estimation, it is an original non-A1 Colt 1911 frame built circa 1918, in which the frame (SN: No. 407247) is possibly now the only original part. I get the impression that my grandpa replaced parts over time both as they encountered wear and as he attempted to sporterize it to meet his fancy.

The frame has US ARMY and UNITED STATES PROPERTY markings. It also has an RIA stamp, which based on my limited research indicates it was re-serviced at RIA at some point in time. There are signs of light cracking on both the left and right side of the frame.

The slide is blued, marked Remington Rand. The barrel is serialized, but I don't recognize at a glance who the manufacturer would be. The bushing is also serialized, but does not match the barrel. Based on serial numbering scheme, I am guessing the barrel and bushing are distant cousins of the same manufacturer. Straight mainspring housing. Spur hammer.

Looks to have an aftermarket elongated trigger. Target sights. Pachmayr wrap-around grips (which he apparently shimmed on the left side with some random material that happened to be around, which is totally consistent with something my grandpa would have done .

All in all, I expect it has virtually no value as a shooter, and little value as a collector piece given that nothing is original. Nonetheless, I'd like to establish a value. I'm wondering if there's any interesting history here that eludes me. Would appreciate any insight. Thanks!

 

[AlexanderA]

All in all, I expect it has virtually no value as a shooter, and little value as a collector piece given that nothing is original.

You are largely correct. Its main value to you is sentimental, given that it was owned and used by your grandfather. That said, any issue M1911, even a random collection of parts, is worth at least a few hundred dollars.

My first reaction was that the parts, individually, might have a total value greater than the intact gun. But after looking at the parts, I would abandon that thought.

Everything has been refinished, perhaps more than once.

The frame has US ARMY and UNITED STATES PROPERTY markings. It also has an RIA stamp, which based on my limited research indicates it was re-serviced at RIA at some point in time. There are signs of light cracking on both the left and right side of the frame.

The "M1911 US ARMY" marking on the frame is spurious. You can see that it was hand stamped, and not very well. On an original gun, the "Model of 1911 U.S. Army" marking would be on the slide.

The spurious marking, plus the cracks, make the frame worthless for any purpose.

The barrel is serialized, but I don't recognize at a glance who the manufacturer would be. The bushing is also serialized, but does not match the barrel.

The numbers on the barrel and bushing are not serial numbers. They are drawing (part) numbers for the National Match components. Both appear to be well-worn.

Sorry not to be able to say much positive about this gun.

 

[Tallinar]

You are largely correct. Its main value to you is sentimental, given that it was owned and used by your grandfather. That said, any issue M1911, even a random collection of parts, is worth at least a few hundred dollars.

My first reaction was that the parts, individually, might have a total value greater than the intact gun. But after looking at the parts, I would abandon that thought.

Everything has been refinished, perhaps more than once.

The "M1911 US ARMY" marking on the frame is spurious. You can see that it was hand stamped, and not very well. On an original gun, the "Model of 1911 U.S. Army" marking would be on the slide.

The spurious marking, plus the cracks, make the frame worthless for any purpose.

The numbers on the barrel and bushing are not serial numbers. They are drawing (part) numbers for the National Match components. Both appear to be well-worn.

Sorry not to be able to say much positive about this gun.

Thanks! You've confirmed virtually all of my suspicions. I appreciate you taking a look.

 

[Jim Watson]

Number (last four of the gun serial number) under the ejection port, ordnance marked Micro adjustable sight, and "shark fin" front sight indicate that the slide came off a 1961 military NM. The barrel is of 1963 or later production and is not serial numbered that I can see. So your idea that Grandpa just kept it in working order is probably right.

 

[243winxb]

Accuracy and function must be known before setting a price. The target sights are a big plus.

Are the "frame cracks" hidden by the slide? Or is this a crack?

 

[Slamfire]

I have seen this any number of times with customized military firearms.

The WW2 generation was not interested in taking a military rifle out in the woods if they could have optics installed and stock improvements.

The grand kids of WW2 veterans find the war nostalgic and dress up in costumes to be Paratroopers and Pilots. The actual participants of the war were proud of what they did, and happy it ended with them alive. I can't think of any that wanted to go back and relive the experience. And the weapons of the era were just old guns to that generation. I mean someone probably had a fascination with the side arms of the war, but if they were like my Dad, those old guns were no more interesting than old hammers.

And, they were looking for a bargain. Surplus WW2 weapons were every where, and cheap. (Lugars were always high) The 1950's and 60's were the high point of customizing military arms.

I can tell you though, by the 1980's, the tidal wave of cheap surplus military rifles had receded, and it was difficult to find like new, unaltered, military arms. President Reagan allowed a resurgence, and I made the best of it then. The Government had an agreement with Colt about not selling surplus 1911's to civilians, so all military 1911's were actually rather rare.

Your Grandfather no doubt found a frame, a slide, and knew someone who could make a target pistol out of a bunch of parts. That was not unusual, at it turns out during the 1960's, new Colt 1911's were hard to find. Colt was making obscene profits with M16 production. Civilian production of firearms was almost an after thought.

What you find today, the grandkids want all original, all military rifles and pistols. Those sell well, and bring a good price. Something that was customized 50 years ago, those are always suspect. The buyer, and the seller, don't know the gunsmith, don't know his reputation, and it is not all military or all original. Does not go with the costume. I am sure your Grandfather's pistol will shoot fine with target loads.

Target pistols were set up with light recoil springs, such as 12, 14 lb recoil springs. These springs are too light for ball ammunition. If you plan to shoot this 1911 with factory ammunition buy a 16, 18 recoil spring and install it. Firing factory ammunition in a 1911 with target springs will beat the thing up.

And, the advice was back then: the elbow is the drip point. If the slide and frame were fitted, you need to keep the thing swimming in lubricant when you shoot it. Fitting required peening the frame rails, and then coating the same with grinding compound. The slide was beat back and forth till the fit felt right, and not too tight. If there was any surface hardening, the grinding compound would remove it. So the metal under neath is likely to be soft, and irregular. Keep everything lubed.

And, it used to be that the target shooters held the hammer back when the slide was released. To achieve fine trigger pulls, the sear had to be honed, but military parts were made from cheap, soft steels, and they wore. Holding the hammer back was a means of being nice to the hammer/sear and preventing hammer follow on the reload.

If your pistol ever doubles, it is time for a new hammer and sear.

 

[243winxb]

Your Grandfather no doubt found a frame, a slide, and knew someone who could make a target pistol out of a bunch of parts. That was not unusual, at it turns out during the 1960's

Very true. Parts guns can be very accurate when hand fitted and may look just like the OPs 45. I seen a few when i shot Bullseye in the 70s. My first was GI with adjustable sights added. New bushing. Slide tightened to frame. Trigger work.

A new basic 1911 goes for $400. A worked target gun thats shoots 3" groups or better @ 50 yards, much more.

 

[Tallinar]

What you find today, the grandkids want all original, all military rifles and pistols. Those sell well, and bring a good price. Something that was customized 50 years ago, those are always suspect. The buyer, and the seller, don't know the gunsmith, don't know his reputation, and it is not all military or all original. Does not go with the costume. I am sure your Grandfather's pistol will shoot fine with target loads.

Target pistols were set up with light recoil springs, such as 12, 14 lb recoil springs. These springs are too light for ball ammunition. If you plan to shoot this 1911 with factory ammunition buy a 16, 18 recoil spring and install it. Firing factory ammunition in a 1911 with target springs will beat the thing up.

I appreciate all the perspective you've shared. Good stuff. The generational divide in how things are viewed and valued, and the effect of time and distance, are always so interesting to consider. I have great respect for the greatest generation, and certainly don't begrudge the fact that this 1911 isn't what it's not. There is rich history even in considering how this gun came to be what it is, as you've outlined, and I appreciate it.

As I've inherited a number of guns in recent years, with the passing of my dad and grandpa, it's been strange to consider what to keep and what to sell. On the one hand, there is a level of sentimental value to certain things. On the other hand, it's tough to rationalize keeping around guns I have no interest in shooting when there is some sort of monetary value to them, and that value could be put to work elsewhere. My dad and grandpa left me with an interest in the shooting hobby, to be sure. But in a case like this, grandpa's gun has little inherent value left to it as a shooter, and I'm not so sentimentally attached to the thing as to get back into loading .45 ACP and figuring out the idiosyncrasies of yet another pistol just for the nostalgia of it. That isn't to say someone wouldn't enjoy that, it just isn't me.

One thing I've considered about some of these guns is to ask if any of my kids will be interested in shooting then. But as it stands, I have a hard time seeing my boys get interested in handloading and gun tinkering at this particular level. A couple of my kids enjoy running the press handle with me every now and then, and one of them likes to thumb through the reloading manual sometimes to see what kinds of powerful cartridges are out there, but none of them demonstrate a serious interest in the hobby. If my boys won't be the types to appreciate this kind of gun -- and I don't fault them if they don't -- then it makes the decision to try and sell something like this even clearer. I've determined not to become one who keeps a trove of treasures and doodads through life, and that's part of the example I want to set for them. Moreover, I'll never be the kind of guy who gives someone a gift that's sentimental to me, with the expectational that the giftee appreciates it the same way I do. In the end, I'm really not overly sentimental when it comes to material possessions. Maybe even to a fault, at times.

I do know Grandpa handloaded target loads. I recall him loading a number of 200 gr LSWC's with what I remember to be lighter powder charges. Also some 230 gr RNFP, but presumably downloaded below ball ammo velocities. The recoil spring is noticeably less stiff than every stock 1911 I've handled, which is consistent with what you surmise.

Accuracy and function must be known before setting a price. The target sights are a big plus.

Are the "frame cracks" hidden by the slide? Or is this a crack?

I'll have to field strip it to get a better picture. I vaguely recall that grandpa stopped shooting this thing in matches sometime in the 2010's in part because he was concerned that the apparent cracking in the frame was going to worsen and cause a problem if he didn't retire it. He had picked up a cheap Rock Island Armory gun to play with after that, but didn't get around to tinkering with it as much as I suspect he wanted to. He died about four years ago at the age of 93.

 

[Jim Watson]

I'm not so sentimentally attached to the thing as to get back into loading .45 ACP and figuring out the idiosyncrasies of yet another pistol just for the nostalgia of it. That isn't to say someone wouldn't enjoy that, it just isn't me.

I vaguely recall that grandpa stopped shooting this thing in matches sometime in the 2010's in part because he was concerned that the apparent cracking in the frame was going to worsen and cause a problem if he didn't retire it.

I appreciate your position.
Unfortunately, this gun does not likely have much resale value.
If you could find that One Guy who would provide it Grandpa type ammo and either manage the crack or shoot it until the dust cover fell off, that would be its best use.

 

[Slamfire]

I'm not so sentimentally attached to the thing as to get back into loading .45 ACP

Let me recommend a target load(s) that were in vogue when your Grandfather shot his 1911, and are still excellent target loads.

First of all, replace the recoil springs with new recoil springs. Buy a 12, 13, 14, and a 16 lb recoil spring. You want to find the heaviest spring that gives 100% cycle reliability, and this is to minimize frame/slide impact velocities. A half century old recoil is certain to have taken a set.

Then, 200 LSWC H&G 68 type, 3.5 grains Bullseye for 25 yard TF and RF. This is a load Jim Clark, Bullseye National Champion, recommended in the American Rifleman in the middle 1950's.

I found with an optical sight on top, this was not powerful enough to reliably cycle my pistol in cool timperatures, so I bumped the charge up to 4.1 and 4.2 grains depending on the Bullseye Pistol Powder lot. I used up all my WLP and am now having failures to cycle with CCI large pistol primers, so the next lot will be bumped up even more!

A load of 4.0 grains Bullseye Pistol Powder and a 200 LSWC H&G 68 type is a good 50 yard load. Might need to bump it up, the desired velocity goal is 740 fps to keep the bullet from tumbling.

You can see, changing powder lots does change muzzle velocity, and with powder puff loads, you have to compensate for function.

M1911 Les Baer Wadcutter

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 907 6/20/2005 WLP Brass mixed cases
23-Mar-16 T = 69 °F OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469"
oiled cases

Ave Vel = 723.3
Std Dev = 9.48
ES = 28.65
High = 741.6
Low = 712.9
Number rds = 10

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 919 11/2005 WLP Nickle, mixed cases
8-Jun-15 T = 91 °F OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469"
oiled cases

Ave Vel = 742.9
Std Dev = 9.89
ES = 33.19
High = 760.6
Low = 727.5
N = 20

200 LSWC (H&G 68 type) 4.0 grs Bullseye Lot 907 6/20/05 WLP, mixed cases
13-Sep-18 T = 75 °F OAL 1.250" Taper Crimp 0.469"

Ave Vel = 715.6
Std Dev = 10.86
ES = 37.6
High = 735.4
Low = 697.8
N = 15

If you cannot find Bullseye Pistol Powder, Titegroup is an outstanding target powder in the 45 ACP, duplicating Bullseye Pistol Powder charges provides the same velocities, more or less.