Larry Vickers & Ken Hackathorn on the HK45
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schmeky
Member
It would be difficult to argue that the HK is not a fine defensive weapon.
DenaliPark
member
Well this HK45 was a POS, it was one of the worst firearms I can ever remember owning. Faulty fitting grip inserts(all of them)with easily seen gaps between inserts and frame that would rattle & shake. You could actually feel them moving about under recoil!
The trigger guard had a groove in it, which allowed the trigger to pull without contacting the guard, probablly an effort of some kind to mitigate trigger bounce or something, regardless it would pinch the ops trigger finger under recoil(hard), and was extremely distracting.(I had an idiot gamer on Glocktalk call me a pussy for bringing it to attention, he apparently felt it was a worthwhile distraction because he thought the pistol cool looking)
The magazine feed lips were not shaving sharp, but they were damn close, they certainly could be made to slice paper! The pistol was very difficult to take down for routine cleaning, requiring deft fingerwork. It was huge, particularly compared to a pistol such as the G30SF, which held the exact same amount of ammo, at literally half the size.
The worst aspect of the H&K45 however was not that it cost well over a grand with all of its glaring imperfections, nope, it was the H&K customer service! They had the pistol for months while they worked at rectifying the terrible slop between the frame and the grip inserts. They were awful, completely indifferent to the concept of "customer satisfaction!"
Of course only a fool would believe all H&K pistols were as bad as mine was, anybody can make and deliver to market, a lemon, I had a G21SF blow up in my hand, injuring me. However, Glock was wonderful, they immediately responded, and took care of everything, even when it became obvious that it wasn't their fault. I don't think H&K would have done a thing, at least not without the prompting of an attorney, and that makes the defective product that sneaks by to market decidedly worse!
The trigger guard had a groove in it, which allowed the trigger to pull without contacting the guard, probablly an effort of some kind to mitigate trigger bounce or something, regardless it would pinch the ops trigger finger under recoil(hard), and was extremely distracting.(I had an idiot gamer on Glocktalk call me a pussy for bringing it to attention, he apparently felt it was a worthwhile distraction because he thought the pistol cool looking)
The magazine feed lips were not shaving sharp, but they were damn close, they certainly could be made to slice paper! The pistol was very difficult to take down for routine cleaning, requiring deft fingerwork. It was huge, particularly compared to a pistol such as the G30SF, which held the exact same amount of ammo, at literally half the size.
The worst aspect of the H&K45 however was not that it cost well over a grand with all of its glaring imperfections, nope, it was the H&K customer service! They had the pistol for months while they worked at rectifying the terrible slop between the frame and the grip inserts. They were awful, completely indifferent to the concept of "customer satisfaction!"
Of course only a fool would believe all H&K pistols were as bad as mine was, anybody can make and deliver to market, a lemon, I had a G21SF blow up in my hand, injuring me. However, Glock was wonderful, they immediately responded, and took care of everything, even when it became obvious that it wasn't their fault. I don't think H&K would have done a thing, at least not without the prompting of an attorney, and that makes the defective product that sneaks by to market decidedly worse!
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Skylerbone
Member
If I were Larry I would buy two M&Ps and leave the spare parts at home, same money and less hassle.
I'm not defending HK. I just thought it was an interesting interview and I posted it here. don't even own an HK45. I'm just amazed that anyone would question these two people's "motives" as you put it.
rellascout
member
Why wouldn't you question their motives? They make money from selling guns, training, parts etc... So you have to weight that against any comments they make.
Both of these individuals profited from the development of the HK45. I would be shocked if they as a result they did not endorse it. Again that does not mean the the HK45 is not a good gun. I owned one and that was my impression of it. It shot well but simply too big for me to ever carry and did not fit my hand as well as other guns I owned.
I think the part that people are missing is that less than .01% of shooters are going to shoot more than 10K rounds out of their pistol in a year. If they do most of those rounds are not going to be shot in harsh conditions. They are saying if you are going into harsh conditions and need a low maintenance pistol because you will not be able to service it they would choose the HK45. This is the context of their statement. At least thats how I read it.
I shoot a lot. I carry a gun most days. I consider myself a pistol enthusiast but I am not going to shoot 10K out of one of my pistols in a year. I do not fall within the parameters they used to make the recommendation that they made. 1911's do not require a lot more maintenance than other guns. You do need to understand how they operate a bit more than other designs in order to keep them 100% but it is not a huge burden. IMHO.
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Hey, I've got HK in my screen name too, but I'm not a freak! Lighten up guys, its a pistol. A very good pistol, but still a pistol. It goes bang, like it should, when you pull the trigger.
I own the USP45C and I don't find it anywhere near brick like. Don't really see a reason to move into the HK45 from the USP.
I own the USP45C and I don't find it anywhere near brick like. Don't really see a reason to move into the HK45 from the USP.
It would have been good if H&K was interested in a "redesign" of the 1911 and what they would have come up, with direction, from Vickers and Hackathorn.
I'd like to see another company take a "shot" at it. The 1911 needs some design changes while maintaining the "virtues".
If JMB were alive, he probably would have had many revisions by now...many!!
I'd like to see another company take a "shot" at it. The 1911 needs some design changes while maintaining the "virtues".
If JMB were alive, he probably would have had many revisions by now...many!!
JohnBT
Member
"We both are in agreement that if you had to go to Afghanistan..."
I'm not. I don't think the airline would let me take a gun on the plane anyway.
I'm not. I don't think the airline would let me take a gun on the plane anyway.
rellascout
member
LOL
They did that already...it was part of an article introducing the HK45...and found the price they would have to sell it at too daunting to justify production.45auto said:
That is how they turned their attention to optimizing the USP 45 into the HK45...besides the looming military contract competition
Viper
Member
I have three 1911's - RI FS, SIG 4.25 in, and SA 3.5 in. None have ever failed and I do carry the smaller ones occasionally. I also have a 14 year old P220 and HK c 45, and again no problems with either. Both are beautiful, well built pistols, but the SIG is a bit large. That said, my favorite carry pistol is an M&P c 45 because it shoots so well, has been perfect for 2000 rounds, and fits me better than the others.
fastbolt
Member
I don't see how folks could take issue with these gentlemen discussing their opinions. They're certainly entitled to discuss their opinions and experiences. Their experience and knowledge ought to earn them some respect. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them.
I've always thought HK engineered and manufactured good quality firearms. I carried a P9S45 I found to be a decently accurate pistol, but eventually decided not to keep it because of the difficulty in getting parts back then, a typical spongy HK trigger and the lack of a selection of holsters. That P9S had some nicely contrasting and highly visible sights, though.
If I were a HK armorer I'd probably pick up a HK45c and wring it out. I'm not, though.
HK is one of the companies for which I haven't attended an armorer class ... and I've found the M&P 45 to serve my needs quite well in offering me a reliable and seemingly quite durable alternative to my 1911's, 3rd gen S&W .45's and my early production Ruger KP90DC.
I'm considering ordering another M&P 45, a compact this time, as well as another 1911 (or 2
) ...
Different strokes.
I've always thought HK engineered and manufactured good quality firearms. I carried a P9S45 I found to be a decently accurate pistol, but eventually decided not to keep it because of the difficulty in getting parts back then, a typical spongy HK trigger and the lack of a selection of holsters. That P9S had some nicely contrasting and highly visible sights, though.
If I were a HK armorer I'd probably pick up a HK45c and wring it out. I'm not, though.
HK is one of the companies for which I haven't attended an armorer class ... and I've found the M&P 45 to serve my needs quite well in offering me a reliable and seemingly quite durable alternative to my 1911's, 3rd gen S&W .45's and my early production Ruger KP90DC.
I'm considering ordering another M&P 45, a compact this time, as well as another 1911 (or 2
) ...Different strokes.
Skylerbone
Member
Meytind, how are you privy to that info? Are you saying they donated their time? Again, sources please.
Questioning motive in this case is like wondering what Johnny Appleseed's favorite fruit might be. It does not imply a dislike for the product, rather it places an asterisk next to the opinion.
Questioning motive in this case is like wondering what Johnny Appleseed's favorite fruit might be. It does not imply a dislike for the product, rather it places an asterisk next to the opinion.
I know they don't work for HK because if they did, they would have the info on their websites. Them not getting royalties comes from Todd Green's responses in the comments section of his interview with them.
Having Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers design your handgun is like having Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt design your race car. Is it really that surprising to hear that two of the most knowledgeable and experienced guys in the field think that when their input was taken in the design of a .45 service pistol, that it would be the best in its niche?
If Tiger Woods helped design a golf club to his specifications, do you think people would be jumping down his throat when he said it was probably the best golf club ever?
Having Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers design your handgun is like having Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt design your race car. Is it really that surprising to hear that two of the most knowledgeable and experienced guys in the field think that when their input was taken in the design of a .45 service pistol, that it would be the best in its niche?
If Tiger Woods helped design a golf club to his specifications, do you think people would be jumping down his throat when he said it was probably the best golf club ever?
murfdog
Member
I have a H&K USPcompact .45 it is the best gun I have owned Just my 2 cents
Murfdog
Murfdog
1KPerDay
Member
Do you really think any of those guys would do that work for free? You consult with a company, they pay you... you're working for them. Larry mentioned working for HK and training people on the G36 on his tactical arms show also.
I've got an HK USP 45c stainless. I traded a Kimber that couldn't be made to work for it even up. It is one of th finest pistols I own. It is super accurate, always shoots, fits my hand well, and is not hard to ccw. I can carry it cocked and locked or DA/SA. The DA/SA is not as good as my SIG 220. But after a few hundred rounds it's very good. The SA pull breaks exactly at 4lbs. and smoothly. It's is a quality product. The only down side is magazines for it are about $50.00 a piece. I picked a couple up at a gun show a couple of years ago for $30.00 new. Should have bought more.
But I will say this. For whatever a civilian might run into I don't see it as any more capable than my G30. I won't sell my HK. I love it. But I can take my G30 anywhere and bang the hell out of it (not trying to but hiking can be hard on a gun) and not worry about damaging an expensive gun. You just can't hurt a Glock. My G30 is going nowhere either.
But I will say this. For whatever a civilian might run into I don't see it as any more capable than my G30. I won't sell my HK. I love it. But I can take my G30 anywhere and bang the hell out of it (not trying to but hiking can be hard on a gun) and not worry about damaging an expensive gun. You just can't hurt a Glock. My G30 is going nowhere either.
CowboyGSP
Member
I'm always amazed by the internet commando responses to articles like these. Most of them boil down to 1. didn't read it 2. didn't understand it or 3. don't know any better.
O.P. --- Thanks for sharing/posting.
The article is actually an interesting read into the development cycle of that pistol as well as a pretty candid review of the final product and their perceived short comings with it.
The fact they compare it favorably to a 1911 at the end apparently has some of your commando panties in a twist, which says more about you than them. Keep yelling at the wind though...LoL.
O.P. --- Thanks for sharing/posting.
The article is actually an interesting read into the development cycle of that pistol as well as a pretty candid review of the final product and their perceived short comings with it.
The fact they compare it favorably to a 1911 at the end apparently has some of your commando panties in a twist, which says more about you than them. Keep yelling at the wind though...LoL.
Skylerbone
Member
I know Tiger wouldn't declare it a miserable failure. I'm not looking to argue with the opinions of the gentlemen in question, quite frankly I'm ill prepared. As I stated before their opinions are what they live by and I'm sure they feel confident in the HK. But to claim to best JMB's design invites scrutiny and for the designers to toot their own horns to say as much even more so.
CowboyGSP
Member
Not to be flip but did you actually read the article?
The first time Ken speaks he addresses 1. the problem they were attempting to fix 2. that Larry was still serving our country at the time and 3. they come to the conclusion that asking HK to produce a 1911 wasn't going to work.
Here's the quote with those 3 points in bold to make it easy...
Within the very first lines of the article most of the angst thrown at the wall in this thread is answered. In my best ESPN voice - Come on man!
The first time Ken speaks he addresses 1. the problem they were attempting to fix 2. that Larry was still serving our country at the time and 3. they come to the conclusion that asking HK to produce a 1911 wasn't going to work.
Here's the quote with those 3 points in bold to make it easy...
"November of 2001 is when we went over to Oberndorf (HK Germany). (2)Larry was still in [SFOD-Delta] and (1) the price and maintenance of a custom 1911 was becoming a problem for the unit from a logistics standpoint. (3a)Could HK produce a 1911 of the quality that you could buy off the shelf? We knew if anyone in the world could do it quality-wise it was HK. And to be honest we presented some pretty nifty ideas to them.
At the same time, HK was phasing out production of the P7 which used a forged frame. So they had the forge capability to make a 1911.
As it turned out, within months SIG came out with a 1911, Smith came out with a 1911, and (3b)we kind of went, “This isn’t going to work.”"
At the same time, HK was phasing out production of the P7 which used a forged frame. So they had the forge capability to make a 1911.
As it turned out, within months SIG came out with a 1911, Smith came out with a 1911, and (3b)we kind of went, “This isn’t going to work.”"
Within the very first lines of the article most of the angst thrown at the wall in this thread is answered. In my best ESPN voice - Come on man!
I would think Ruger P90 would cut down on logistic problems as they almost never break down. I used to own H&K but that was when I wore shirts with little pony rider and New Balance shoes.......I'm pass that stage now. H&K is to Snap-on what Glock is to Craftsman......?
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h&k
I've owned 3 H&K's and found them nothing special at all. One of them had the highly touted LEM trigger mentioned in the article. I grew to hate the pistol and still consider it one the worst semi-auto's I've owned. To me it was nothing but a big double-action only revolver. Not very accurate either, the lowly Ruger 345 shot rings around it. Perhaps desert combat has different criteria and needs, than the way I use and carry a pistol in Virginia. I did like the capacity though and may eventually buy another. Just to see how my friend and I both could be so "wrong" in evaluating the pistol. At least according to these knowlegable and highly respected men. I like the 1911 platform and have several, the major draw back is capacity. H&K and the FN both solve that problem.
I've owned 3 H&K's and found them nothing special at all. One of them had the highly touted LEM trigger mentioned in the article. I grew to hate the pistol and still consider it one the worst semi-auto's I've owned. To me it was nothing but a big double-action only revolver. Not very accurate either, the lowly Ruger 345 shot rings around it. Perhaps desert combat has different criteria and needs, than the way I use and carry a pistol in Virginia. I did like the capacity though and may eventually buy another. Just to see how my friend and I both could be so "wrong" in evaluating the pistol. At least according to these knowlegable and highly respected men. I like the 1911 platform and have several, the major draw back is capacity. H&K and the FN both solve that problem.
LongRangeInternational
Member
You will? Based on what data? Why don't you ante up and go to SHOT and talk to Vickers about how you perceive his bias?
For those of us that have ACTUALLY trained with either of these gentleman, the accusation of bias are laughable. However, error net conjecture still abounds.
For those of us that have ACTUALLY trained with either of these gentleman, the accusation of bias are laughable. However, error net conjecture still abounds.
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