Lawful or unlawful detention?

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While I find the idea that photographing Government buildings is Verboten repugnant and a violation of my right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it would be good to remember were this took place.

New Orleans is a city like no other with LEOs to match. Even though the officer involved was a Postal employee, from what I have read, odds are good he had the authority to detain and arrest. and like most N.O. LEOs I have worked with over the years,had a short fuse and etremely limited tolerance for refusal to comply with their directions. In other words, if you really want to spend the night in their Jail,just run off at the mouth and try to impede the investigaton and I guarantee you will.

If you were armed as stated, the only safe course of action would have been to state your willingness to accompany him, but let him know you are legally armed and cannot enter a Postal facility while so armed. Do not let him find the weapon during a pat down, as his response will not be to your liking.

New Orleans LEOs are the most courteus, tourist friendly, and helpful officers I have ever known, but the environment they work in makes their primary goal to go home at EOS and to that end they take no chances.
 
thorn726,

Just what are you insinuating here? That the sheriff put Kevin Lee Freeman in a cell with a violent criminal so that he could be killed and removed permanently from his spot on Telegraph Ave.? Perhaps the sheriff paid Ryan Raper to kill him? Maybe gave him an extra ration of cigarettes, maybe allowed Roper to have a special conjugal visit with a hooker? I would suggest that you are watching too many prison dramas......I can't believe that you took that article and posted it as proof that the US criminal justice system is making people disappear or exterminating them :what: .

insidious_calm;
Exactly how do you propose arguing the finer points of constitutional law on the street, in a way that will give you a fair chance of winning?

Jeff
 
Time for a reality check my friend. The so called patriot act has given the government some scary powers. But no one is being disappeared like in Argentina and Chile.
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Jeff, you're a member of law enforcement, and seem to speak confidently about the bondaries of current terror-related detention practices in the USA. Are you so sure all (fed) agencies are following the protocols of particular small-town PD's?

Not trying to challenge your truthfulness, but make a mental note of your italicized claim above. I think you'll be proven wrong, if/when the dust settles.
 
I concured w/ Jeff earlier, so I'll chime in now.

hammer4nc,

We have two different issues going here. I'm willing to concede that perhaps certain individuals may have been detained under unusual circumstances, perhaps even "disappeared", in the War on Terror. However, it's FAR more likely that those individuals are non-citizens, people like Saddam, than American citizens. The idea of being "disappeared" while walking down the street for taking a picture is laughable. Your camera disappeared, maybe, but you? Not likely.
 
There are many changes brought on by 911, do they all fit out personal lives, maybe not, but that is not going to make them go away. americans have this funny belief, that if something changes their personal life, or is an inconvenience to them personally...then it is an outrage. internal and external security is going up, and rightly so....911 was the opening wake up call in a war that will exceed all of our lives...if you choose to live by the belief, that big brother, is after you, then do so. Some guy getting challenged, by security at a post office....was just some guy getting callenged by security at the post office....
 
Jeff White,


The onus is on you who are in law enforcement to know what you can and can't do, at least it should be. Right now we have a system in which SOME leo's do and say things that they know they have no authority or standing to do or say and then rely on the corrupt judicial system to protect them from accountability. If you accost me on the street and I know I am doing nothing wrong I will challenge your authority to do what you are doing. If you pull me over and it's not obvious why(terry stop for instance) and you don't tell me why I will make you tell me before I give you my license. I will make you articulate those facts that you are supposed to have that create reasonable suspicion. Now, this may very well escalate the situation, but so be it. If you can't justify my detention I will at least try to walk away.

This is not a "lack of respect for authority". I am not a "cop hater". Quite the opposite. The problem is that LEOs have forgotten who they are accountable to and what their role is. LEOs are not accountable to the courts, they are accountable to you and me and all the other citizens. They don't work for the government, they work for you and me and all the other citizens. This country was founded on the principal that individual liberty is more important than most other things. We should not forget that.

The goal is not to "win" an encounter with a LEO. The goal is to assert my rights. The court is for weilding the hammer of punishment against the LEO on my behalf later. It's really funny too, because most LEOs see no problem when someone asserts their 5th amendment right to shut-up, but DON'T YOU DARE assert your fourth amendment rights! Oh no, THAT is a highly offensive "lack of respect" for their authority. If that happens, the SOP for LEOs is to take offense and escalate, escalate, escalate, out comes the mace-nightstick-gun "son, you wanna re-think your attitude problem" and it's all down hill from there.

It doesn't have to be that way either. I've said before in previous threads, the problem comes when LEOs think that people are supposed to do as they say and not question anything simply because they are LEOs. If every LEO everywhere began every NORMAL encounter from now on in this manner; "Good morning/day/evening sir/madam, THE REASON WHY I STOPPED YOU IS __________________. May I see your license/ID please." then most of this rift between "us and them" would disappear almost overnight. You as a LEO most often set the tone for the entire encounter in your first few sentences. If you are brash and disrespectful you are likely to get the same in return.


Arc-Lite,


There are many changes brought on by 911, do they all fit out personal lives, maybe not, but that is not going to make them go away. americans have this funny belief, that if something changes their personal life, or is an inconvenience to them personally...then it is an outrage. internal and external security is going up, and rightly so....911 was the opening wake up call in a war that will exceed all of our lives...if you choose to live by the belief, that big brother, is after you, then do so. Some guy getting challenged, by security at a post office....was just some guy getting callenged by security at the post office....
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So why not just give up then? I mean sure, we can create national IDs and make everyone wear them around their necks everywhere they go, and things might get even more safe, but why even bother? If we are going to destroy the very bedrock of what this country and our personal freedoms stand for then they have already won. By acceding to this type of group think you are giving the terrorists half of what they want. I submit that when they see this type of stuff it only fuels their appetite to affect furhter change in our society.

I'm not saying we don't need to be vigilant, but how much are you willing to give up in order to obtain a little security? This is a war. There will be casualties. Sacraficing our freedoms to erect at best a serious inconvenience to them is not worth it IMHO. Our enemy is motivated by religious zealotry. They will not be stopped by such actions, only slowed. Killing them is the only way it will be ended. Let's keep our freedoms intact and prevent further attacks over here by taking the fight to them rather than waiting for it to come to us.


I.C.
 
insidious...if you choose to allow your assumptions and inaccurate word conversions to influence your reading of posts..... then you will remain in the dark...."give up" " national ID's" where did ths dribble come from? you say...."we are at war" and then "I want it all to stay the same"....the scum bags of the earth, look for the people who hit the snooze alarm, and fall back to sleep....the world is not the place it was yesterday. Your review of the LEO are funny...you want respect....best learn how to give it....your attitude speaks for itself.
 
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Tejon rules are in effect when dealing with the po-po: Eddie Haskell up, do not debate, in fact do as little jabbering as possible. "Am I free to leave?" If yes, leave. If not, don't.

He wants the camera, he gets the camera. You get names and receipt. You write down who, what, when, where, how and any witnesses around you. You keep pistol in your holster, Big Tex.

Bogus, inane stop. Don't do anything to hurt your status as a perfect plaintiff in your § 1983 claim or your motion to suppress in any potential criminal case.
 
What is a 'postal cop' and what authority does he have? Is he a sworn LEO? Who does he report to/work for? How about engaging him in a conversation? "I'm Oleg Volk, a local photographer. I live in town here at XXX Street. I like to walk around and photograph my town. Why is that a problem? I'm not willing to turn over my expensive camera to you. We'll have to talk to your boss" etc. If you don't get satisfaction from HIS boss, keep going up the ladder. Be courteous, but firm. Ask him to cite specific 'violations' of spefic laws. Write stuff down. That always bothers them.
 
Just what are you insinuating here? That the sheriff put Kevin Lee Freeman in a cell with a violent criminal so that he could be killed and removed permanently from his spot on Telegraph Ave.?
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yeah that's pretty much the feelin gwe all get.
i dunno how much of it was in the article i posted , but the roper (i believe it was actually raper, whatever) guy
was so obviously seriuosly violent=
first, was arrested for stabbing a supposed aquuaintance in the NEck for NO reASon. THEN= first cellmate guy has=
he is jumping on him trying to kill him in middle of night for no reason.

then cops bring in belligerent Freeman.

(roper?) is already in isolation for being so crazy psychotic violent, and has even been termed psychotic by doctors.

again, he is supposedly in isolation.

sheriffs decide belligerent Freeman belongs in cell with extremely violent for no reason Roper

oh and this was just an accident, thats why it happens all the time, little guy getsd thrown in with dangerous guy, and gets killed.
I DONT THINK so . this kind of thing RARELY happens in a pre trial jail holding situation. this was a tota set up.
they didnt have to ask raper (roper?) to do anything. the guy was so nuts, anyone near him was likely to get beat on

sorry, i have a real hard time believing this. someone thought they would give guy a lesson, put him in with a real violent jerk, and the guy got splattered.

sure there were never any prison fights set up by CO's, no cops ever put people together in jail hoping theyll kill each other.

LOOK= don't get me wrong, the vast majority of LEO are good people trying to do the right thing, but there are plenty who aren't, and something a lot of us miss is what happens to the homeless when the police decide to take things into their own hands.

all im saying is it happens. rarely , but it happens.
 
For those of you wondering what authority a Federal Postal Inspector has, check out this page on the U.S. Postal Service website. In short, they are federal LEOs, don't mess with them. Of course, if this guy was a rent-a-cop, all bets are off.
 
Arc-Lite,


I'm not sure what the first part of your rambling meant but as for my assessment of LEOs I point easily to the attitudes of some on here for reference. Us v. them, circle them wagons, back the blue, etc., etc. My assessment is spot on. I will openly respect ANY LEO who is respectful of me. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that attitude. The mere fact that someone wears a uniform and a badge or much less carries a gun, does not make them instantly worthy of respect though.

LEOs probably initiate contact with citizens 99% of the time an encounter occurs, excluding obviously the phone call to get them there. How they act and speak in the first moments of that contact will most likely set the tone for the whole encounter. There are exceptions to every rule and I speak mainly of the more mundane things like traffic stops. The problem is that many LEOs go around treating every traffic stop like it was a felony warrant service. It sure can be that way here where I live.

As for what else you said, I guess I'll have to stand by what I said earlier. It is entirely possible to fight and win this war without emasculating our constitution. It may not be the easy way, but it is the right way. To do anything less is to give them some victory, however small it may be.


El-T,


I'm certainly not advocating drawing the ol' hawg leg out. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I just don't see anything wrong with asking LEOs who have accosted me for whatever reason what exactly that reason is. Like I said, if you have to go to court to exercise them then they aren't really rights anymore are they?


I.C.
 
insidious...my point was simple, read the words in the post, without adding your spin.
 
vernal...good point !!! and in reflection, where does it say anywhere, you deserve respect...just for showing up? make your own choices... but be man enough to also deal with the consequences.
 
Arc-Lite, -1

That is nearly the dumbest thing I haver ever heard.

Everybody deserves respect. It's a little thing called civility. I behave politely to you, you behave politely to me. As soon as I start behaving in a manner that implies I don't deserve that respect, feel free to disrespect me. Chances are, you have already lost my respect.

The whole notion of inherent rights, and therefore the Bill of Rights, stems from a position of mutual respect. The principal of Innocent Until Proven Guilty? Free Speech? RKBA? All of these come from the idea that individuals are capable of managing themselves. The idea that the vast majority of people are quite capable, and, well, respectable is the entire basis. In other words, Respect.

As soon as you start from a position of disrespect, you open the door for racism, a class/caste system, and the Nanny State. Maybe you are OK with that, but I'm not.

You say, "Oh, well, that only applies to the government. The government must respect me, but I don't have to respect the people working for the government." What a steaming pile of manure! The government is the people, and reflects the people. You can't complain about the incivility of government agents on one hand, and then behave, indeed, advocate incivility, on the other hand. The behavior of the government is simply a mirror of the behavior of the people.

Manners fall out of style, and suddenly cops are rude. Amazing, That!
 
owen...with as many posts as you have made, I am sure that you have realized the value of reading back to the point of the last time you checked the thread.... you failed to do so this time.....I was saying the exact same thing...respect is a two way street, and respect comes in many forms.... one form...is paying attention.
 
SOUNDS LIKE ALOT OF ANTI COP ANTI GOVERNMENT SPEAK TO ME ......IF IT IS SO BAD HERE IN THE GOOD OLD USA ........THEN MOVE YOUR ASSES TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.......... :cuss:SOME PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK .
 
SOUNDS LIKE ALOT OF ANTI COP ANTI GOVERNMENT SPEAK TO ME ......IF IT IS SO BAD HERE IN THE GOOD OLD USA ........THEN MOVE YOUR ASSES TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.......... SOME PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK .
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Why should people who disagree with current .gov "policy" and/or the misapplication of authority move? Those who are citizens of the various states have just as much right to be here, expressing their point of views as you do.
 
Arc-Lite, my apologies

Vernal45, where does it say you must respect a cop? Try the Bible, you know, Do unto Others, Love thy Neighbor...
 
Where in any state Penal code does it say that I MUST respect an LEO. It does not.
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It's in the same section that says cops have to respect you.

In fact, it's the very next sentence.
 
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