When a cop says "please step out of your vehicle" or "may I search your vehicle?"

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Correct me if I am wrong but isn't there an exception if you are within 25 miles of the border?

Seems I recall that the PC requirement was out the window close to the border. Am I remembering that right?
 
This thread is one of the reasons I carry a small digital recorder when I go out and especially when I carry. It can record 96 hours of audio at the lowest quality which is good enough for voice only. I turn it on when I go out and erase it when I get home. It has a USB port to move files to your PC.

Don't leave home without one.
 
The BORDER PATROL / ICE is doing checkpoints along the roadways. They cite its reasonable within ## miles of the border. I consider is unconstitutional.

DUI checkpoints should also be unconstitutional.

Untaxed fuel, AKA "red diesel" checkpoints should also be unconstitutional.



To pull over a vehicle ONLY because it's a diesel, with no other suspicion that it may be running on untaxed fuel.... that's bogus.





FWIW:

Really, there is a very simple answer regarding a frisk and/or search. If the cop is asking for your consent, he doesn't have enough RAS or PC to conduct the search without it. If he did, he wouldn't be asking you for your consent to begin with.

I don't know everything, but I would contend the exact opposite.

Why would an officer even ask, lacking the necessary level of suspicion?
He's kinda setting himself up for disappointment when the driver says no. If he does find something, it'll be a weak case from the start. People's cars are nasty, and bending over in the heat/cold/dark, with all that gear on, traffic flying by inches from your butt, taking your eyes off the driver, and reaching for that dirty diaper under the seat isn't fun... heck it's an outright safety compromise.

Do you think most officers are doing vehicle searches on a lark?


I'm just saying...

Some cops might prefer to observe the rolling papers in the driver's wallet when he opens it to reach for his ID, and then see the marijuana seeds that got shaken onto the floorboard. That cop should still ask for consent, it's nice to be polite. How the driver responds tells you right away if he's honest, dishonest, submissive or combative. That information is FAR more valuable to the officer than a dime-bag. That's why cops ask. They are judging the driver's reaction (should I call for another unit to assist me?).

The data oriented world we live in provides the officer with a lot of information. Assume he knows... a lot. Sometimes the officer even knows answers to the questions he's asking the driver.

"Where ya headed sir?"

Home.

Where is that sir?


Do you really think he doesn't already know where you live?
The officer is just doing an integrity check.
 
This thread is one of the reasons I carry a small digital recorder when I go out and especially when I carry. It can record 96 hours of audio at the lowest quality which is good enough for voice only. I turn it on when I go out and erase it when I get home. It has a USB port to move files to your PC.

Don't leave home without one.


Very sound advice.


I use one also. Most LEOs carry these. From a LEOs perspective, it gets used to exonerate them more than it gets used to incarcerate others.

Also comes in handy for countless civil disputes... that repairman who promised you a $500 repair and then gouges you $1000. Hearing his own words can change his tune fast.
 
Daisy Cutter said:
Some cops might prefer to observe the rolling papers in the driver's wallet when he opens it to reach for his ID, and then see the marijuana seeds that got shaken onto the floorboard. That cop should still ask for consent, it's nice to be polite. How the driver responds tells you right away if he's honest, dishonest, submissive or combative. That information is FAR more valuable to the officer than a dime-bag. That's why cops ask. They are judging the driver's reaction (should I call for another unit to assist me?).

Did you read United States v. Hunnicutt above?


Daisy Cutter said:
How the driver responds tells you right away if he's honest, dishonest, submissive or combative.

How about this one. I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foriegn and domestic. I am an officer in the US Navy with service to this country for 27 years, so far (enlisted before becoming an officer). I value the Constitution and the protection of ALL rights that it affords and I will NEVER waive those rights to a police officer, which means I will NEVER give consent to any search. If that is viewed as being dishonest or combative, then so be it.

Daisy Cutter said:
Why would an officer even ask, lacking the necessary level of suspicion?

Actually, I will say this. A smart cop will ask for a consent to search whether he has probable cause/reasonable suspicion or not and there is a simple reason for that. IF he obtains consent prior to the search, then ANYTHING the cop finds during the search can be used as evidence, whether the search was related to the probable cause/reasonable suspicion or not. Obtaining consent to the search completely throws out any defense of unreasonable search and seizure because a search that is consented to is impossible to be unreasonable, IF the consent was given freely, without coercion.

The reason WHY an officer is requesting for consent to search, though, is pretty much immaterial. NEVER, EVER consent to a search! Just because you have nothing to hide is NO guarantee that they won't find something anyway.
 
And the offer for Samuel79 to explain to us United States v. Hunnicutt quoted above still stands - how does refusal to consent to a search give rise to or contribute to reasonable suspicion or probable cause?
 
Sorry, it seems half the post on this thread are BRB????
I have seen here, and will continue to listen to the advice of those who present more than just opinion.
BTW, isn't a number of legal precedents where the refusal of search was specifically thrown out as a factor of PC?
 
The reason WHY an officer is requesting for consent to search, though, is pretty much immaterial. NEVER, EVER consent to a search! Just because you have nothing to hide is NO guarantee that they won't find something anyway.

It wouldn't be the first time a joint or empty beer bottle was found under/between the seats of dad's car.....
 
Proximity to a locked vehicle does not, in fact, equate to an inability to immediately access it.

I do it all the time.

And from there, much of the assumptions concerning what a LEO may or may not be authorized to do begin to unravel.

I'd imagine that trying to convince a judge that you're going to extend your Terry stop to a locked vehicle the subject is no longer in will be an uphill fight, though?


Larry
 
However, if you are pulled over for a valid reason, and the officer asks to search your car and you refuse, then yes, that alone is enough to warrant the required "probable cause", and there is a volume of precedent to support it

If he as "probable cause" to search then why would he ask permission?
Under the assumption you just have a broken tail light.
 
DT Guy said:
I'd imagine that trying to convince a judge that you're going to extend your Terry stop to a locked vehicle the subject is no longer in will be an uphill fight, though?


Larry

Especially since the officer should have already frisked you, and unless they are going to break into the car to conduct the search, they would have to obtain the keys from you. Seems like once they obtain the keys from you, "immediate accessibility" kind of goes out the window...
 
TexasRifleman, the PC requirement is thrown out the window for "routine border searches" at border checkpoints or their functional equivalent (e.g., airport terminals where people arrive from other countries). Travelers can be detained for a brief search of their persons and belongings (including their vehicle).

In the area near, but not at a border, there is a difference between "roving" border patrols and fixed checkpoints. Roving border patrols are subject to the same rules as any other cop. However, officers at fixed checkpoints in the "border zone" are allowed to stop people and briefly detain them for questioning, but cannot subject them to a search without the usual legal justifications.
 
So...an Officer who has no reasonable suspicion of any probable cause to search a Car, but is in the mood for a fishing expedition, can ask the Car's driver if he may search the vehicle, and, when the person says "No", the Officer then has his probable cause, because the person refused?
No.
I have seen that asserted lately, but it is not correct.
 
Many cops are either taught the law incorrectly or interpret it incorrectly. Many cops use incorrect procedures. Many of them get away with it more often than not. Usually against defendants who lack either the resolve or the savvy to stand up to them.

None of this makes incorrect/illegal procedures acceptable. To allow bad practices and cops to get into bad habits does everyone a disservice. Especially when a cop gets in trouble after many years of service, because no one told him he was doing anything wrong. (More likely, he knew it was wrong all along, but listened to other cops who told him not to worry about it.)

Assertion of your rights indicates neither reasonable suspicion nor probable cause of a crime.

I'm not a lawyer yet, but my professors are. I trust them to know what the heck they are talking about.
 
Did you read United States v. Hunnicutt above?


Where on Earth did I imply that refusal to consent would imply guilt?

If I see drugs on the floorboard, then I don't need consent. I still ask. The driver's answer indicates to me whether he might be willing to fight or run, and whether I need to wait for a second unit to arrive on scene to watch him while I expose myself digging inside the car.

If I don't have enough evidence to merit a search, then I don't bother asking.

How about this one. I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foriegn and domestic. I am an officer in the US Navy with service to this country for 27 years, so far (enlisted before becoming an officer). I value the Constitution and the protection of ALL rights that it affords and I will NEVER waive those rights to a police officer, which means I will NEVER give consent to any search. If that is viewed as being dishonest or combative, then so be it.

I took a similar oath. I appreciate your service and your speech. If an officer pulls you over with an open bottle of Wild Turkey, then whether or not you "consent" to a search is immaterial. I'm asking because I want to find out whether you're a happy drunk or a combative drunk.

There is no wrong answer, and whatever answer you provide won't change my course of action or the nature of any applicable charges.

I'd just prefer not to get bloody.


Actually, I will say this. A smart cop will ask for a consent to search whether he has probable cause/reasonable suspicion or not and there is a simple reason for that. IF he obtains consent prior to the search, then ANYTHING the cop finds during the search can be used as evidence, whether the search was related to the probable cause/reasonable suspicion or not. Obtaining consent to the search completely throws out any defense of unreasonable search and seizure because a search that is consented to is impossible to be unreasonable, IF the consent was given freely, without coercion.

The reason WHY an officer is requesting for consent to search, though, is pretty much immaterial. NEVER, EVER consent to a search! Just because you have nothing to hide is NO guarantee that they won't find something anyway.


Negative Ghostrider.

A smart cop knows that the only time a consent search is even valid is after he gives the driver all his license/reg/ins papers back, tells him he's free to leave, AND ONLY THEN ASK TO SEARCH.

Otherwise the defense will argue that the driver felt he was not free to go and was intimidated into consenting, and that argument will stand up.

That's the freshest case law reference consent searches.

In fact, county attorneys are telling the police to turn around and walk away a couple steps, before returning and asking, just so it can be argued the driver was in-fact free to leave when he consented.


It's become so much of a PITA, that a smart cop just realizes it's easier to wait until he's got ample evidence to justify a search... and then ask.


I won't argue it's wise to decline a search.


I won't ever consent to a search. Though I AM going to be very careful to verbalize my opposition in a way that does not escalate the situation.


Perhaps you live in a really clean area, and the police use consent searches to get lucky... well, then I guess it wouldn't be a clean area.

Anyway, if a cop can pull over a car and get dope and a warrant at will, then why is he going to be farting around on a long shot like you anyway?

There's never a lack of genuine bad guys.
 
Originally Posted by Samuel79
However, if you are pulled over for a valid reason, and the officer asks to search your car and you refuse, then yes, that alone is enough to warrant the required "probable cause", and there is a volume of precedent to support it.

If there is indeed a volume of precedent to support your claim, maybe you could cite a few.... or one?

[Edit] As Samuel79 seems to have removed the post wherein he made the statement, I guess we can take that as tacit agreement that he wishes to retract the claim.
 
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Actually, the part I don't like is the mess, simply put, I have enough of a problem keeping the car clean, I don't need somebody else trashing it, and when they start 'dismantling' thats the part where the cell phone comes out, and the insurance company gets a call.

Seems to me, it's easier to get the car fixed if you didn't say it's ok to search in the first place.
 
DaisyCutter said:
A smart cop knows that the only time a consent search is even valid is after he gives the driver all his license/reg/ins papers back, tells him he's free to leave, AND ONLY THEN ASK TO SEARCH.

Otherwise the defense will argue that the driver felt he was not free to go and was intimidated into consenting, and that argument will stand up.

Yes, that's true...

I'm sorry, I may have read more into your posts than was actually there. I was kinda spun up at the time by Samuel79's nonsense.
 
We happen to have discussed this recently in several threads.

You do have to obey a lawful order, which instruction to step out of the car would appear to be. Absent any reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed, the officer must limit his search to a search of the immediate area, and is only allowed to search for items which might compromise his safety.

One way to counter that is to lock and close the door as you exit the vehicle. At that point, the interior of the car is not accessible to you (or him) and is no longer the "immediate area." Ergo, nothing in that car represents an immediate threat to his safety. He may frisk you for weapons -- but only for weapons. Anything else (illegal) he finds may be confiscated, but may not be used to incriminate you in court.

He cannot -- short of having probable cause (for example, a concrete and reasonable belief that you've committed a crime) -- open your locked vehicle and search it.

Now, he may make any number of claims later (I smelled pot, etc.) and if he chooses to go ahead with a search you cannot legally try to stop him. However you should document the incident and make the best preparation you can for fighting it and protesting it afterward.

Remember: neither your NRA sticker, your Guns&Ammo magazine on the seat of the car, nor your statement that you do not consent to searches constitute ANY reasonable suspicion that you've committed a crime.
Not exactly...If a person is sitting on the curb while the officer goes back to his car to run the person, the person still has access to the car. The person would be much closer to the car than the officer, and still is able to unlock the car to get into it. Even if the person gave the keys to the officer, the officer has no way to know if the person has another set of keys. However, the officer still needs an original reason as to why he feels his safety could be in jeapordy.

Also, when frisking for weapons, weather it be in the car or on someone's person, any other contraband found can be used against the individual, and the person can be arrested for it. This is based on Minnesota Vs Dickerson in which a Dickerson was frisked for weapons. The officer felt a lump in Dickerson's jacket, which the officer was able to articulate was a bag of drugs, and Dickerson was arrested. The supreme court ruled the officer did not have a reason to frisk the subject, however, if the frist had been lawful, if the officer can articulate that while they are frisking a subject for weapons, and they find contraband, the subject can be arrested.

Keep in mind, just because you do not know what the reasonable suspicion or probable cause is for an officer frisking or searching your car, does not mean the officer does not have it. For example, I am a white male in my 20s. I drive a gray Nissan pick up truck. Say I am wearing a white shirt and jeans. A bank gets robbed at gun point, and the suspect is a white male in his 20s wearing a white shirt and jeans. He leaves in a gray nissan pick up truck. Even if I have nothing to do with the robbery, and officer that sees me driving around the area of the robbery can stop me. Because a robbery is a violent offense, the officer can articulate that his safety could be in jeapordy, and therefore, he can frisk me and the car for weapons. Locking the doors to the car after I get out and refusing to open it for him could be considered interfering with the investigation, or refusing to comply with a lawful order, both of which are arrestable offenses.

Another example is say you are going to the gym or to a friends house, and you will only be gone a short time, so you forget to take any form of ID. I'm not sure about in other states, but in AZ, driving a car without ID is a crime, which you can be arrested for. If you get pulled over, the officer can arrest you. Arizona Vs Gant says the officer can search your car for evidence of the crime you committed, which is failure to provide ID. The officer can search your car for ID, and any contraband found can be used against you.

Bottom line, you do not have to consent to a search of you vehicle, but there are so many different laws and rules that police officers can use to get into your vehicle, that they probably don't need consent.

With regards to the OP, my advice would be exit the vehicle, but don't consent to a search. Your refusal of consent alone does not give the officer consent to search. Just know, the officer could already have all the reasonable suspicion or probable cause he needs to get into your car, so don't try to resist or refuse if he goes ahead with his search. If your constitutional rights have been violated, you can always sue.
 
Yes a cop can ask you out of the car. Think of a felony traffic stop where the cop prones you out at gun point. Your choices are get out, get shot, or have all the windows in your car smashed out and you go to jail.

If the cop asks you questions, usually your best option is 1) to say nothing, 2) if the cop asks questions or makes requests say "am I under arrest or am I free to go."

There are numerous threads out there:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=376902

There is also a great video done by the NAACP I think.
 
"I'd imagine that trying to convince a judge that you're going to extend your Terry stop to a locked vehicle the subject is no longer in will be an uphill fight, though?"

Perhaps, but it is not as black and white as some would have it be.
 
if a cop says to you "sir, please step out of your vehicle?"
My former neighbor, with lots of awards for "policeman of the year" always bragged about pulling women out of cars by their hair, through the window, if they did not move fast enough to suit him.
So, no, I would not recommend refusing to get out of the car.
Today, it might get you tasered.
 
how does refusal to consent to a search give rise to or contribute to reasonable suspicion or probable cause?

i suppose a fella with a car that contains something that will get him in trouble might say he didnt want them to look inside because of it.

i didnt get to see what samuel said because it was removed (for being off topic, or incorrect?) so quite a bit of this thread doesnt make sense anymore.

off to look around elsewhere
 
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