Although I believe that, I don't understand it. I'm old enough to remember when the bs stopped the moment the law showed up. No matter what you were doing, you gave the officer your complete attention and showed him the proper respect. Now everybody is a smartass. What happened?
vehicle search question
- Thread starter Ukraine Train
- Start date
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pcf
Member
I don't think anybody was implying that you have to consent to a search "or else". If the police ask for consent say "no sir/no ma'am" and leave it at that. You don't have to be rude, you don't have to reiterate, and no justification is required.
Hank,
Even if you have a touch key pad, the officer is going to ask you to open the vehicle and retrieve your keys. You're back to square one if you retrieve your keys. If you refuse, your cars going to get towed. Further a vehicle left on the side of the road with keys inside is a serious theft risk and a danger to "public safety." You will not win that one in court. If you refuse to open the vehicle in the officers presence he can only assume that you are unable to do so.
Your vehicle's towed and now the nice officer decides he can't safely leave you on the side of the road, but he'll give you a ride to the station, so you can call family or a cab. He bags your CCW, knife, or any other weapons, and you can retrieve them later when you have proof of ownership and pay a custodial fee.
Hank,
Even if you have a touch key pad, the officer is going to ask you to open the vehicle and retrieve your keys. You're back to square one if you retrieve your keys. If you refuse, your cars going to get towed. Further a vehicle left on the side of the road with keys inside is a serious theft risk and a danger to "public safety." You will not win that one in court. If you refuse to open the vehicle in the officers presence he can only assume that you are unable to do so.
Your vehicle's towed and now the nice officer decides he can't safely leave you on the side of the road, but he'll give you a ride to the station, so you can call family or a cab. He bags your CCW, knife, or any other weapons, and you can retrieve them later when you have proof of ownership and pay a custodial fee.
Car Knocker
Member
Optical Serenity said:
When you inventory a car do you make a written list of every item that is in the car (i.e. (1) 3/8" drive 13/16" socket, (1) CD Katie Webster Two-Fisted Mama, etc.)?
SMMAssociates
Member
(Hey TennTucker; long time no see....)
Optical Serenity:
My problem with a search is threefold:
1. I'm not the first owner of the car. It was a rental in Orlando. Lord knows what's really in the trunk in some corner or other that I never bothered to look in.
2. I've got a teenage daughter who has occasionally driven the car (with friends inside). I trust her to have not left anything in the car, but not her friends.
3. I get to the range about once a week. While there are never any guns in the car unless I'm on the way to or from the range (other than my carry piece), who really wants to argue that a loose .45 round must be in a factory box. (It doesn't, but....)
By law you can search anything I can reach, and I have no objection to that (well, little; see #2 above), although reaching the glove box is a bit of a stretch for me. Big car, bug guy.... I have to ask to see the warrant for everything else.... It's too easy to get screwed up or screwed over.
I'm not accusing anybody of dishonesty. I'm an old rent-a-cop, and consider myself a "supporter", but I've also seen some really nasty stuff come out of the LE and Judicial system. So, I don't drive in ways that'll get me stopped (not that it's really possible), and I'm as cooperative and civil as is possible within limits of self-preservation.
(FWIW, although most of the "regular" LE guys I used to run around with are deceased, if I knew the guy, he wouldn't be asking me to check the trunk anyway. Double standard? I don't think so. There are bigger fish to fry out there. Besides, I'd probably buy the coffee if we adjorned to the nearest....)
Optical - your concerns are justified, and I think we should applaud you for chiming in and offering valid opinions. Just don't expect most of this gang to accept any kind of search that's not precisely within the law.
I love the "lock the keys in the car" defense. With a keypad, IMHO, there's no foul. 'Course you'd probably have to open it if asked the right way - the trunk is really the issue. My daughter's Toyrus (it looks like it's already been to the crusher) came with one, but the "master code" that was supposed to be in the engine compartment was gone, and we have no idea how to set the combination. It'd be good for her, though. She's been known to lock herself in the car. Blonde disease....
BTW, guys - a trip to the car wash and some agressive use of the sweeper ought to get any contraband out of the car that's not under the rear seat or in the trunk. Pop the seat if you dare (they never seem to want to go back right) or bribe the attendants (tell 'em they can have the good stuff they find). No sense in starting with a dirty car.
I did a ride-along with an old PD Sergeant once who started his day at a car wash. Same reasons.... "No idea what the last turn had left in the car, or the folks the last turn transported had left."
Regards,
Optical Serenity:
My problem with a search is threefold:
1. I'm not the first owner of the car. It was a rental in Orlando. Lord knows what's really in the trunk in some corner or other that I never bothered to look in.
2. I've got a teenage daughter who has occasionally driven the car (with friends inside). I trust her to have not left anything in the car, but not her friends.
3. I get to the range about once a week. While there are never any guns in the car unless I'm on the way to or from the range (other than my carry piece), who really wants to argue that a loose .45 round must be in a factory box. (It doesn't, but....)
By law you can search anything I can reach, and I have no objection to that (well, little; see #2 above), although reaching the glove box is a bit of a stretch for me. Big car, bug guy.... I have to ask to see the warrant for everything else.... It's too easy to get screwed up or screwed over.
I'm not accusing anybody of dishonesty. I'm an old rent-a-cop, and consider myself a "supporter", but I've also seen some really nasty stuff come out of the LE and Judicial system. So, I don't drive in ways that'll get me stopped (not that it's really possible), and I'm as cooperative and civil as is possible within limits of self-preservation.
(FWIW, although most of the "regular" LE guys I used to run around with are deceased, if I knew the guy, he wouldn't be asking me to check the trunk anyway. Double standard? I don't think so. There are bigger fish to fry out there. Besides, I'd probably buy the coffee if we adjorned to the nearest....)
Optical - your concerns are justified, and I think we should applaud you for chiming in and offering valid opinions. Just don't expect most of this gang to accept any kind of search that's not precisely within the law.
I love the "lock the keys in the car" defense. With a keypad, IMHO, there's no foul. 'Course you'd probably have to open it if asked the right way - the trunk is really the issue. My daughter's Toyrus (it looks like it's already been to the crusher) came with one, but the "master code" that was supposed to be in the engine compartment was gone, and we have no idea how to set the combination. It'd be good for her, though. She's been known to lock herself in the car. Blonde disease....
BTW, guys - a trip to the car wash and some agressive use of the sweeper ought to get any contraband out of the car that's not under the rear seat or in the trunk. Pop the seat if you dare (they never seem to want to go back right) or bribe the attendants (tell 'em they can have the good stuff they find). No sense in starting with a dirty car.
I did a ride-along with an old PD Sergeant once who started his day at a car wash. Same reasons.... "No idea what the last turn had left in the car, or the folks the last turn transported had left."
Regards,
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
I try to be guided by rational self interest. (I don't always succeed, but...)
Optical Serenity, would you please explain to me why it is MY best interest to allow a cop to search my car. What do I stand to gain from granting consent?
Optical Serenity, would you please explain to me why it is MY best interest to allow a cop to search my car. What do I stand to gain from granting consent?
CalamityJane
Member
After reading this thread I have the following questions. And, really, they are genuine questions, I'm not trying to argue with anybody. I'm too new, and don't know enough to do that.
1) If I have a permit to carry, can't I have a loaded gun in the car, within reach,legally?
2) If my car has always been MY car, and I know for a fact that there is nothing illegal in my car, why should I not allow a search, if for some reason the LEO wants to?
3) What types of things, or behaviors, would cause a LEO to want to search my car?
I have been lucky, I guess, that I haven't had any bad experiences with LEO's. I'm not naive enough to think that they are all good and decent, but, that's true in all areas of life and work. But for the most part, I'm glad to know that they are out there, especially when I'm on my 100 mile commute at 5 in the morning. So, that's the reason for my questions; I honestly don't know the answers to them, and this thread has made me wonder.
Thanks.
1) If I have a permit to carry, can't I have a loaded gun in the car, within reach,legally?
2) If my car has always been MY car, and I know for a fact that there is nothing illegal in my car, why should I not allow a search, if for some reason the LEO wants to?
3) What types of things, or behaviors, would cause a LEO to want to search my car?
I have been lucky, I guess, that I haven't had any bad experiences with LEO's. I'm not naive enough to think that they are all good and decent, but, that's true in all areas of life and work. But for the most part, I'm glad to know that they are out there, especially when I'm on my 100 mile commute at 5 in the morning. So, that's the reason for my questions; I honestly don't know the answers to them, and this thread has made me wonder.
Thanks.
71Commander
Member
Yes you can
IMHO, it's not why you shouldn't but why should you.
Being a non LEO.
------------------------------------------------------------
Hey SMMAssociates. Nice to hear from you.
Old Dog
Member
Depends on the state. Here in Washington, it must be on you; RCW 9.41.050 applies:
(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
I still wonder why so many on this forum seem to get pulled over while driving so often. I've been pulled over exactly four times since I started driving in 1975 ... all for speeding (and I was) ... in spite of having lived in both urban areas and rural areas, driving in the middle of the night, driving beat-up old cars, etc. But then, all I do is wash my cars regularly (which doesn't take much money or time) and keep the lights operative and the plates legible (which also doesn't take much time or money). Of course, I suspect using turn signals and trying to stay within the speed limit helps. Funny, I've driven a lot in Southern Michigan and Southern California, where so many THR members routinely disparage the cops and still couldn't get pulled over for no reason.
swampsniper
Member
I had that "respect", until I had to pay a fine for driving 90 in a '76 Pacer that strained to hit 65, and a game warden told me that "all hunters cheat if no one is looking", in the space of one year.R.H. Lee said:
There is an "us against them" mentality in much of law enforcement. I just figure I can play the game as well as they can.
Michael Courtney
Member
Ukraine Train said:
The trouble is trying to prove the search is illegal. The LEO can always say he was given consent. However, if the LEO had to enter with a slim jim, then most courts will be inclined to agree that you probably did not give consent.
Citizens are under no obligation to aid an LEO in a search. If law enforcement wants to search a locked room or safe in my home, they are going to have to call a locksmith or otherwise break in, because if I voluntarily open the room or safe for them, this might be construed as consenting to the search. It's hard to be the physical evidence of a forced entry to back up my story that I did not consent to the search.
The same is true for a vehicle search. Even without a touch keypad, a driver can simply put the keys in his pocket and lock the vehicle. If an LEO decides he has PC to search, the driver is under no obligation to provide volunteer the keys, just like the owner of a gun safe would not have to provide the combination if law enforcement claimed PC and wanted to search. Refraining from aiding a search is not the same as obstructing a search.
Lock the door, put the keys in your pocket and make the law enforcement folks call a locksmith or slim jim their way into your car. This will prevent fishing expeditions and put an end to all doubt whether the search was consensual.
Michael Courtney
Michael Courtney
Member
Old Dog said:
A lot of suburban agencies pull folks over as a matter of routine just to keep the crime rates down. I've been pulled over several times for driving an older vehicle or pulling a run down trailer that looks out of place in a neighborhood.
Michael Courtney
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
Can't they simply search your pockets (for weapons or whatever) and retrieve your keys and unlock the door themselves?Michael Courtney said:
pcf
Member
Michael Courtney said:
If the police have a warrant to search a safe, it's the wrong time to play tough guy. They can remove the safe from the premise and secure it. Even if that involves pulling it out of a wall with a tow truck, or knocking it on it's side and rolling it out. And you will not be "fairly reimbursed" for property damage that might occur when it's moved, especially if you can't prove prior condition. If you still refuse to open it, it's fair game, that includes using hammers, drills, and blow torches to open it. And what does that get you? A ruined safe, damaged property, a custodial fee and a nickel for your trouble? It's the wrong time to act tough.
Having the Police kick down a door and break a door jamb in your home, because you won't let them into a room after they've established an exigent circumstance is STUPID. You're going to end up with a broken door and getting paid squat for repairs.
You need to make a rational informed decision before deciding to cooperate or not cooperate with the police. Both require you to think about what could happen. Hindering the police from performing acts that they have the legal authority to do, can result in criminals charges, serious damage to property, and administrative fees. Getting your car towed because you won't open your doors after the police establish probable cause is STUPID. They call a locksmith and he ruins the locking mechanism in your door, tough. You're the one getting stuck with bill and the broken car door.
IMHO:
When all LEO's are held to the same legal standard, and must go thru the same court systems [ including arrest/jail/bail ] etc..
Then I will be willing to voluntarily submitting to a search.
###
The OTHER change that I would be willing:
If one volunteers to a search, then he/she may withdraw such agreement at any time. Having been the passenger of one who was stopped, and then had his car ripped apart for hours... not going to do that myself. BTW: nothing was there to be found.
When all LEO's are held to the same legal standard, and must go thru the same court systems [ including arrest/jail/bail ] etc..
Then I will be willing to voluntarily submitting to a search.
###
The OTHER change that I would be willing:
If one volunteers to a search, then he/she may withdraw such agreement at any time. Having been the passenger of one who was stopped, and then had his car ripped apart for hours... not going to do that myself. BTW: nothing was there to be found.
Molon Labe
Member
I value principles more than property. So I have already made up my mind to never cooperate with rogue LEOs...pcf said:
HankB
Member
In this hypothetical situation, the vehicle is neither abandoned, nor will it be left by the side of the road. And our hypothetical officer knows that full well. The only way what you describe will happen (including the part about not winning in court) will be if the officer in question lies or otherwise knowingly provides false testimony.pcf said:
Not saying he can't get away with it ("Your Honor, I honestly thought the vehicle was abandoned . . . wink wink") but I approached this from the premise that while the hypothetical officer may be a jerk, he's not actually "dirty." Maybe I actually hold LEOs in higher regard than you do.
Travis Lee
Member
Let's go over this again.
NO Warrant, NO probable cause.
Not even the "reasonable articulable suspicion".
I have to ask just WHY any police officer gets SO invested in doing a fishing expedition when License shows no record, insurance and registration is all in order, and I simply wish to be about my business. (which is none of HIS) If I know there is no legitimate reason for his suspicion,
I have seen recent reports of Local police officers arrested, convicted, removed from police agencies locally for rape, assault, murder of a handcuffed arrestee, road rage, and then there was that case in Texas recently where a rogue police officer framed and got convicted something like 50 people for drug offenses.
And I shuld give a police officer permission to hold me for an hour while he satisfies himself that I have no booze bottle or drugs in my trunk or lockbox?!
I don't need a reason to justify my privacy, a police officer needs a reason to justify a search.
****************
NO Warrant, NO probable cause.
Not even the "reasonable articulable suspicion".
I have to ask just WHY any police officer gets SO invested in doing a fishing expedition when License shows no record, insurance and registration is all in order, and I simply wish to be about my business. (which is none of HIS) If I know there is no legitimate reason for his suspicion,
I have seen recent reports of Local police officers arrested, convicted, removed from police agencies locally for rape, assault, murder of a handcuffed arrestee, road rage, and then there was that case in Texas recently where a rogue police officer framed and got convicted something like 50 people for drug offenses.
And I shuld give a police officer permission to hold me for an hour while he satisfies himself that I have no booze bottle or drugs in my trunk or lockbox?!
I don't need a reason to justify my privacy, a police officer needs a reason to justify a search.
****************
shane justice
Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2005
- Messages
- 100
Optical Serenity,
I don't guess anybody is trying to put you on edge...or make you responsible for every cop in the world.
But the Po-lice Attitude preceeds itself in this nation....the US/THEM mind set is what makes our LEO's another armed gang amongst us...TO be avoided...and feared instead of respected and appreciated.....
For those of us who have been held at gun point by the Po-lice...had illegal searches done on vehilces...and in general been abused...It is obvious that the idea of Public Trust has been violated too often for LEO's to stand behind the LAW as justification for being an ARSEHOLE.
Sorry guy...that's just the way it is...
As for the idea of searching a vehicle...
My advisor in college...advised...never cooperate with the police...identify yourself...give whatever information they need to do that...insurance...comply with the law....and that is it...
My advisor was head of our department...Law Enforcement/Criminal Justice
And happened to be the Head Examiner for the Polygraph Assoc...
Shane
I don't guess anybody is trying to put you on edge...or make you responsible for every cop in the world.
But the Po-lice Attitude preceeds itself in this nation....the US/THEM mind set is what makes our LEO's another armed gang amongst us...TO be avoided...and feared instead of respected and appreciated.....
For those of us who have been held at gun point by the Po-lice...had illegal searches done on vehilces...and in general been abused...It is obvious that the idea of Public Trust has been violated too often for LEO's to stand behind the LAW as justification for being an ARSEHOLE.
Sorry guy...that's just the way it is...
As for the idea of searching a vehicle...
My advisor in college...advised...never cooperate with the police...identify yourself...give whatever information they need to do that...insurance...comply with the law....and that is it...
My advisor was head of our department...Law Enforcement/Criminal Justice
And happened to be the Head Examiner for the Polygraph Assoc...
Shane
Old Dog
Member
R.H. Lee, I think the "rogue LEO" thing is kinda like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster ... oft discussed, endlessly analyzed, but no one encounters 'em personally ... So many on THR refer to the rogue LEOs, but there's a paucity of personal experience being related.
Travis Lee
Member
Thefabulousfink
Member
I have read over this thread and found a lot of people who are just jonesn' for an encounter where they can say "look, look, I was right and the LEO was wrong!".
Should you consent to a search if there is not PC, of course not! However, I have found through experience that the more polite and respectful that you are with people (not just LEO's) the more polite and respectful they are towards you. Remember Cops are just people with badges, they are not all pro-gun or anti-gun. Cops have to deal with the fact that while 99% of these trafic stops a harmless, but that 1% can result in a dead or wounded cop.
Know your right, know the law, and don't be and a$$. If a cop ask you to do some thing that you don't have to politely refuse if he asks why, politely tell him (don't lecture). A cop how might be just about to let you off with a warning, could decide to hit you with everything he can if you start being a smartass.
And If a cop does insist on breaking the law, stay clam, stay polite, remember everything, and smile on the inside knowing that you are going to be getting a fat settlement
Should you consent to a search if there is not PC, of course not! However, I have found through experience that the more polite and respectful that you are with people (not just LEO's) the more polite and respectful they are towards you. Remember Cops are just people with badges, they are not all pro-gun or anti-gun. Cops have to deal with the fact that while 99% of these trafic stops a harmless, but that 1% can result in a dead or wounded cop.
Know your right, know the law, and don't be and a$$. If a cop ask you to do some thing that you don't have to politely refuse if he asks why, politely tell him (don't lecture). A cop how might be just about to let you off with a warning, could decide to hit you with everything he can if you start being a smartass.
And If a cop does insist on breaking the law, stay clam, stay polite, remember everything, and smile on the inside knowing that you are going to be getting a fat settlement
Meplat
Member
SMMAssociates said:
Not always the case. I once bought a used Misubishi Galant from a reputable dealership (oxymoron?). Drove said car for a while, when my then thirteen year old daughter wanted some movie money. I had washed and waxed and cleaned the vehicle out several times, and found nothing out of the way. I suggested to her that a good vacuumming and ArmorAll-ing of the Mits might be a good way to earn her movie money.
She came in about twenty minutes later, and asked me to come see the "neat" hidden compartment she had found. Sure enough, there under the dash on the driver's side was a little compartment so small I had overlooked it every time I had cleaned the car myself. Thank goodness for a child's curiosity, 'cause that compartment contained some stuff that looked a lot like coarsely ground oregano, and seeds that looked like tomato seeds on steroids. Didn't take a genius to figure out what the substance was. There wasn't a WHOLE lot of it, but it doesn't take a whole lot to get your a$$ in a big sling in this state.
Perhaps a drug sniffing dog wouldn't be a bad investment for those who regularly buy used vehicles?
shane justice
Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2005
- Messages
- 100
You want personal.....
OK guys...you wanna hear the personal stuff...
I posted this a while back on BladeForums....because this kind of thing was being discussed....
Because I use my real name...and not a screen alias...it was a tough decision...here it is...
I guess I decided...what the hell...life goes on...what is past is past...
But maybe somebody would benefit from hearing it told...only a few people have ever heard me tell it...or read it in my own words...
Only one person from this forum...my friend John Shirley...
It was a long time ago...just yesterday....
I had moved to San Francisco. After a tough divorce, I scraped up enough money to buy an old Honda hatchback. I was working for a contract security company. High rents in SF left me without a place to live. Growing up in the mid-west, I thought nothing of “camping out” in the car until I would be able to square things away. The tough part was trying to find a place to park at night so I could sleep.
Those were the days when the Presidio was still alive and well. I spent any time off visiting attractions around the “Bay”. Fort Point, underneath the Golden Gate was one of my favorites. One afternoon as I was driving out of the Presidio, I noticed a small parking area just off-post that held room for maybe ten cars. Parked vehicles occupied one or two of the spaces. I couldn’t see the harm in using this as a place to sleep. It was close enough to the post that most people would probably avoid it, and it was far enough away from people, that nobody should feel uncomfortable with my presence.
For about a week it worked fine. I would go there after my shift, normally well after midnight and park. I would put up “curtains” using a sheet, by rolling the edges up in the windows like Mom used to do when the family would take long driving vacations. The curtains allowed me some privacy. It was summer time and muggy in SF. I left the vents open but it was still stuffy inside the little car. I usually stripped down to my underwear before sleeping.
One night after work, I went through the usual routine. I was asleep when I heard a sharp tap on the passenger side window. It sounded like somebody was coming through the glass at any moment. I pulled back the curtain only to have a light put into my eyes. Squinting into the light I just sat there blinking. I heard a loud voice saying, “Sir would you please step out of the car.” I could see the “rollers” lighting up the fog.
I rolled down the window and allowed the curtain to fall so that most of the car’s interior was in plain sight of the officer and his partner. I asked if I could put on some clothes first.
I noticed that these were not SFPD, but Military Police. Both were in BDU’s and looked to be less than 20 years old. While MP One conducted an interview with me with his light in my eyes, MP Two started shining his light into the car. MP One asked for my identification. I gave him my driver’s license, which was in my wallet on the dash. He took it and started to run it over the radio. While he was doing that, MP Two came back. He was angry. He said, ”My partner told you to get out of the car. Step out of the car NOW!”
I could see this was going to be difficult. I am not sure if he saw something he didn’t like or if he just had better things to do. But he was impatient and ready to make something happen. The last thing I wanted was to get arrested for obstruction. So I popped the door and got out.
I guess my move scared him because he had his Berretta against my temple as I tried to stand up. He grabbed my wrist and using the muzzle of the pistol, he pulled me to the ground. He was screaming for me to get down. Officer One was still talking into the radio. As he saw what was going on he jumped in and put handcuffs on me.
There I was in my skivvies, lying on the wet pavement, sleepy, scared, and alone. The angry MP held his gun on me while I watched with one eye from the ground. His hands were shaking. I could see the redness of his knuckles and the white half moon forming under the nail of his trigger finger. He was actually pressing on the DA trigger while I lay there helpless.
It wasn’t long before the SFPD showed up. The first MP had opened my car up and was throwing everything I owned onto the street. They even had my spare tire out, the contents of the glove box on the ground, all my clean clothes, my uniforms, that had been folded neatly were now on the street. Things kind of got quiet when they found my badge.
The SFPD officer came over to speak with me. He was trying hard to make things better.
He waved off the MP with the Beretta. He unlocked the cuffs and helped me get up. I just stood there, pissed off. It had started to mist the way it does in SF in the summer. Even though I was dripping wet and shivering, they let me stand there.
The SFPD officer was handing me little flyers with information about homeless shelters. He was talking about ways for me to get assistance from the state. I finally told him, “Look! I am not homeless. I just don’t have a place to live. I have a good job. I work hard. I don’t bother anybody. I sure as hell don’t need any help from the state. “ He said he understood but gave me his business card anyway.
The two MP’s finished their inventory of my car. They looked disappointed they hadn’t found anything to incriminate me and warrant their behavior. They finally conferred with each other, returned my driver’s license, and then handed me a metal clipboard. The MP One asked if I would sign an interview card. I declined. They gave me back my driver’s license, got into their cruiser and drove back onto the Presidio.
The SFPD officer wished me a good night and reminded me to call if I needed anything. I turned to him, still dripping, still in my underwear, and asked, “Am I even on the military reservation?” He looked at me hard and said, “No sir, you are standing in San Francisco.”
With that he got into his car and drove away.
I couldn’t do much after that. I stuffed all my wet clothes into a garbage bag. Put everything back into the car and drove to a laundro-mat. I went inside stuffed the washers and did my laundry. I still hadn’t put any clothes on. Nobody even noticed.
You see weirder things in SF than a wet naked guy doing laundry.
Once my clothes came out of the drier, I toweled off and put on a T-shirt and sweats. I felt a bit more human. I had survived it. That was better than the alternative.
I can’t help but think about that time in my life. The first time I was held at gunpoint all I lost was some money I could not afford to lose. Money can be replaced. The second time I lost something more important. I lost my dignity. I lost the pride of being a citizen in a country I love. Before that night I always considered myself a “good guy”. I wore a uniform. I helped people. I was working on a degree in Criminal Justice. I didn’t do drugs. I didn’t break the law. I never even had a ticket. But now I was just a homeless crud.
I still follow the rules. I don’t break the law. I try to be respectful of the police. I do the best I can as a citizen, to make my community a better place. Life is good. My wife and my babies are safe. I own a home. The people around me would never know who I was, or what.
But what they don’t realize is that it could all change. At any moment, any of us could be that guy, lying naked in the rain, waiting to die, because somebody is having a bad day.
OK...guys there it is...a glimpse at my life and what I have been.
None of this was right...but it happened.
Shane
OK guys...you wanna hear the personal stuff...
I posted this a while back on BladeForums....because this kind of thing was being discussed....
Because I use my real name...and not a screen alias...it was a tough decision...here it is...
I guess I decided...what the hell...life goes on...what is past is past...
But maybe somebody would benefit from hearing it told...only a few people have ever heard me tell it...or read it in my own words...
Only one person from this forum...my friend John Shirley...
It was a long time ago...just yesterday....
I had moved to San Francisco. After a tough divorce, I scraped up enough money to buy an old Honda hatchback. I was working for a contract security company. High rents in SF left me without a place to live. Growing up in the mid-west, I thought nothing of “camping out” in the car until I would be able to square things away. The tough part was trying to find a place to park at night so I could sleep.
Those were the days when the Presidio was still alive and well. I spent any time off visiting attractions around the “Bay”. Fort Point, underneath the Golden Gate was one of my favorites. One afternoon as I was driving out of the Presidio, I noticed a small parking area just off-post that held room for maybe ten cars. Parked vehicles occupied one or two of the spaces. I couldn’t see the harm in using this as a place to sleep. It was close enough to the post that most people would probably avoid it, and it was far enough away from people, that nobody should feel uncomfortable with my presence.
For about a week it worked fine. I would go there after my shift, normally well after midnight and park. I would put up “curtains” using a sheet, by rolling the edges up in the windows like Mom used to do when the family would take long driving vacations. The curtains allowed me some privacy. It was summer time and muggy in SF. I left the vents open but it was still stuffy inside the little car. I usually stripped down to my underwear before sleeping.
One night after work, I went through the usual routine. I was asleep when I heard a sharp tap on the passenger side window. It sounded like somebody was coming through the glass at any moment. I pulled back the curtain only to have a light put into my eyes. Squinting into the light I just sat there blinking. I heard a loud voice saying, “Sir would you please step out of the car.” I could see the “rollers” lighting up the fog.
I rolled down the window and allowed the curtain to fall so that most of the car’s interior was in plain sight of the officer and his partner. I asked if I could put on some clothes first.
I noticed that these were not SFPD, but Military Police. Both were in BDU’s and looked to be less than 20 years old. While MP One conducted an interview with me with his light in my eyes, MP Two started shining his light into the car. MP One asked for my identification. I gave him my driver’s license, which was in my wallet on the dash. He took it and started to run it over the radio. While he was doing that, MP Two came back. He was angry. He said, ”My partner told you to get out of the car. Step out of the car NOW!”
I could see this was going to be difficult. I am not sure if he saw something he didn’t like or if he just had better things to do. But he was impatient and ready to make something happen. The last thing I wanted was to get arrested for obstruction. So I popped the door and got out.
I guess my move scared him because he had his Berretta against my temple as I tried to stand up. He grabbed my wrist and using the muzzle of the pistol, he pulled me to the ground. He was screaming for me to get down. Officer One was still talking into the radio. As he saw what was going on he jumped in and put handcuffs on me.
There I was in my skivvies, lying on the wet pavement, sleepy, scared, and alone. The angry MP held his gun on me while I watched with one eye from the ground. His hands were shaking. I could see the redness of his knuckles and the white half moon forming under the nail of his trigger finger. He was actually pressing on the DA trigger while I lay there helpless.
It wasn’t long before the SFPD showed up. The first MP had opened my car up and was throwing everything I owned onto the street. They even had my spare tire out, the contents of the glove box on the ground, all my clean clothes, my uniforms, that had been folded neatly were now on the street. Things kind of got quiet when they found my badge.
The SFPD officer came over to speak with me. He was trying hard to make things better.
He waved off the MP with the Beretta. He unlocked the cuffs and helped me get up. I just stood there, pissed off. It had started to mist the way it does in SF in the summer. Even though I was dripping wet and shivering, they let me stand there.
The SFPD officer was handing me little flyers with information about homeless shelters. He was talking about ways for me to get assistance from the state. I finally told him, “Look! I am not homeless. I just don’t have a place to live. I have a good job. I work hard. I don’t bother anybody. I sure as hell don’t need any help from the state. “ He said he understood but gave me his business card anyway.
The two MP’s finished their inventory of my car. They looked disappointed they hadn’t found anything to incriminate me and warrant their behavior. They finally conferred with each other, returned my driver’s license, and then handed me a metal clipboard. The MP One asked if I would sign an interview card. I declined. They gave me back my driver’s license, got into their cruiser and drove back onto the Presidio.
The SFPD officer wished me a good night and reminded me to call if I needed anything. I turned to him, still dripping, still in my underwear, and asked, “Am I even on the military reservation?” He looked at me hard and said, “No sir, you are standing in San Francisco.”
With that he got into his car and drove away.
I couldn’t do much after that. I stuffed all my wet clothes into a garbage bag. Put everything back into the car and drove to a laundro-mat. I went inside stuffed the washers and did my laundry. I still hadn’t put any clothes on. Nobody even noticed.
You see weirder things in SF than a wet naked guy doing laundry.
Once my clothes came out of the drier, I toweled off and put on a T-shirt and sweats. I felt a bit more human. I had survived it. That was better than the alternative.
I can’t help but think about that time in my life. The first time I was held at gunpoint all I lost was some money I could not afford to lose. Money can be replaced. The second time I lost something more important. I lost my dignity. I lost the pride of being a citizen in a country I love. Before that night I always considered myself a “good guy”. I wore a uniform. I helped people. I was working on a degree in Criminal Justice. I didn’t do drugs. I didn’t break the law. I never even had a ticket. But now I was just a homeless crud.
I still follow the rules. I don’t break the law. I try to be respectful of the police. I do the best I can as a citizen, to make my community a better place. Life is good. My wife and my babies are safe. I own a home. The people around me would never know who I was, or what.
But what they don’t realize is that it could all change. At any moment, any of us could be that guy, lying naked in the rain, waiting to die, because somebody is having a bad day.
OK...guys there it is...a glimpse at my life and what I have been.
None of this was right...but it happened.
Shane
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