Lawyers Debate Shooting..Self Defense or Second Degree Murder?

[Jeff White]

Looks a lot like an execution to me......


http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...EE53778BC4F074F6862571080019EEC6?OpenDocument

Lawyers debate whether shooting was self-defense or second-degree murder
By William C. Lhotka
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
02/01/2006

CHESTERFIELD

It was self-defense, a lawyer told a jury Tuesday, when his client shot and killed a stronger, younger house boarder in Chesterfield last year. But the prosecutor called it second-degree murder.

The central issue shaped up to be whether Charles Collins, 73, had legitimate cause to fear for his life after the man he wounded, Joseph Maiorana, 63, fell to the initial three shots. It was the next two, fired as Maiorana lay on the kitchen floor of Collins' house in the 1500 block of Dresden Lake Court, that killed him, officials said.

The killing happened as the two quarreled over a $300 security deposit, according to evidence in the trial in St. Louis County Circuit Court.

Just before Collins fired, about 4:20 p.m. April 29, Maiorana had pistol-whipped him and said he was going to kill him, defense counsel Steve Sokolik said. But prosecutor Alan Key suggested the threat from Maiorana had passed before Collins walked up to him and fired two shots that lodged in the man's brain.

Prosecutors amended the initial charge of first-degree murder to second-degree, which carries a penalty of 10 years to life in prison, and armed criminal action, which has a minimum of three years and a maximum of life.

The jury watched tapes of Collins' statement to Chesterfield police Detective Rich Murphy and of a re-enactment.

On them, Collins said that Maiorana, who lived in the house for a month, announced April 27 that he was moving, demanded his $300 and threatened to harm Collins if the money wasn't ready.

Collins had a .25-caliber pistol in his pocket and a .22 hidden in the living room when they met two days later, Collins said. He said Maiorana again threatened him, but that Collins insisted on inspecting Maiorana's room before returning the deposit.

Collins said Maiorana came at him and the .25 went off twice as they struggled. He said Maiorana, wounded, took the gun away and put it to Collins' head but it didn't go off. Sokolik, the defense attorney, said experts will testify that the weapon had jammed.

Collins said he retrieved his .22, as Maiorana fiddled with the .25, and fired it.

"He went down," Collins says on the tape. "He was squirming. I shot him again."

[email protected] 314-615-3283

 

[NineseveN]

Looks a lot like an execution to me......

I think the term "execution" is a bit harsh if you believe the survivor's story. If it was as he told it, I see little problem with it honestly.

If you don't buy the story, then yeah, the most likely conclusion is that it was an execution.

Without much more to go on, it's hard to say really.


Now will the cries for "wait until the facts are in before you pass a verdict" be heard in this thread like they are in the LEO threads?

 

[TallPine]

Looks a lot like Collins fired on an armed and still moving threat to me ...

(but then I wasn't there either, and the only other guy that was there is dead now)

 

[Thefabulousfink]

He had a gun in his hand and was still moving, even on the ground he is still a threat, Collins fireed to end the threat.

P.S. this is assuming, of course, that his story is true.

 

[Jeff White]

"He went down," Collins says on the tape. "He was squirming. I shot him again."

Squirming is a threat? Since when? It sounds like Collins executed him. He didn't say; "He kept trying to get up and attack me so I shot him again." or "He was on the floor trying to point his gun at me so I shot him again."

His statement would lead a reasonable person to believe that he executed Maiorana. We won't get to see Collins' videotaped statement or the re-enactment, but I'm that is what's caused the charges to be filed.

Jeff

 

[MS .45]

Collins said that Maiorana was still fiddling with the .25 caliber when he shot him the last two times. Maiorana had already attempted to kill Collins once but the gun jammed. This is, of course, if Collins is telling the truth.

 

[NineseveN]

Squirming is a threat? Since when? It sounds like Collins executed him. He didn't say; "He kept trying to get up and attack me so I shot him again." or "He was on the floor trying to point his gun at me so I shot him again."

His statement would lead a reasonable person to believe that he executed Maiorana. We won't get to see Collins' videotaped statement or the re-enactment, but I'm that is what's caused the charges to be filed.

Jeff

It's honestly kinda vague, it doesn't say either way how the gun was involved at that point. Where did it go, was it in the guy's hand, on the floor, under his body, flung out and under the couch?

You're making a lot of asumptions here on data that just isn't there. I'ma reasonable guy, if I make assumptions on the same info or lack of it that you have, I say good shoot. I don't really know though, because it's kinda vague. It depends on who you believe, maybe we should reserve judgement. To make the suggestion that another course of action should have been taken, based soley on the meager, unreliable and incompete information in a news article is just venting.

 

[joab]

Squirming is a threat?

Define squirming. Are you sure that is the definition that the old man was using?

Too much information left out of the article.
Did the now dead guy drop the gun and go squirming for it?
Did the old guy refer to the now dead guys act of trying to get the gun to work as squirming?
Or was he squirming around like a dying cockroach that needed more shootin?

 

[Jeff White]

NineseveN said;

You're making a lot of asumptions here on data that just isn't there. I'ma reasonable guy, if I make assumptions on the same info or lack of it that you have, I say good shoot.

I'm making my assumptions from the fact that there was a videotaped statement and a re-enactment that we didn't see. The police and the prosecutor did see them and decided that the charges were appropriate.

That doesn't mean that it wasn't self defense, but in my experence, prosecutors don't often file cases that they can reasonably assume are going to go to a jury trial unless they are pretty certain they can win. Chesterfiled MO is not exactly the kind of place where a prosecutor is going to send a message to discourage the citizens from defending themselves by prosecuting an obvious self defense case as murder.

It's all about how you make your statement. Collins use of the words; "He was squirming. I shot him again." will quite possibly be damning to his cause. Most people are going to read them the way joab suggests:

Or was he squirming around like a dying cockroach that needed more shootin?

Contrary to popular belief on internet gun boards, the police and the prosecutors don't often go on witch hunts for evil armed citizens who had the audacity and lack of political correctness to kill an attacker in self defense. Even in gun hating places like New York City, the survivor of a self defense encounter is usually just charged with a violation relating to possessing the tool they used to defend themselves.

Jeff

 

[TallPine]

That doesn't mean that it wasn't self defense, but in my experence, prosecutors don't often file cases that they can reasonably assume are going to go to a jury trial unless they are pretty certain they can win.

Ok, Jeff - I hear you ... but does that me we (or a member of the jury) should assume the defendant is guilty because the prosecutor pressed the charges ...?

Just not enough information ...

 

[joab]

Contrary to popular belief on internet gun boards, the police and the prosecutors don't often go on witch hunts for evil armed citizens who had the audacity and lack of political correctness to kill an attacker in self defense. Even in gun hating places like New York City, the survivor of a self defense encounter is usually just charged with a violation relating to possessing the tool they used to defend themselves.

Which is why the third definition was included

Contrary to popular belief on internet gun boards, the police and the prosecutors don't often go on witch hunts for evil armed citizens who had the audacity and lack of political correctness to kill an attacker in self defense

I wish the members of the boards would make up their mind whether I'm a statist or a cop hater

 

[Ankeny]

Contrary to popular belief on internet gun boards, the police and the prosecutors don't often go on witch hunts for evil armed citizens who had the audacity and lack of political correctness to kill an attacker in self defense.

That's one of the brightest comments I have ever read on an Internet gun board.

I'm making my assumptions from the fact that there was a videotaped statement and a re-enactment that we didn't see. The police and the prosecutor did see them and decided that the charges were appropriate.

I agree. And the fact that shooting a dying man for squirming around sounds like someone wanted the guy dead. But like others have said, not really enough information to know for sure.

 

[Jeff White]

Tallpine,
No you shouldn't believe the defendant is guilty just because the charges were filed.

The jury watched tapes of Collins' statement to Chesterfield police Detective Rich Murphy and of a re-enactment.

The jury saw the tapes. And they will make their decision based on the evidence that's available to them. I think Collins statement, that Maiorana was squirming so he shot him twice more will be his undoing.

I wonder if Collins had legal counsel when he made the statement or if he waived it?

Jeff

 

[NineseveN]

NineseveN said;


I'm making my assumptions from the fact that there was a videotaped statement and a re-enactment that we didn't see. The police and the prosecutor did see them and decided that the charges were appropriate.

That doesn't mean that it wasn't self defense, but in my experence, prosecutors don't often file cases that they can reasonably assume are going to go to a jury trial unless they are pretty certain they can win. Chesterfiled MO is not exactly the kind of place where a prosecutor is going to send a message to discourage the citizens from defending themselves by prosecuting an obvious self defense case as murder.

It's all about how you make your statement. Collins use of the words; "He was squirming. I shot him again." will quite possibly be damning to his cause. Most people are going to read them the way joab suggests:



Contrary to popular belief on internet gun boards, the police and the prosecutors don't often go on witch hunts for evil armed citizens who had the audacity and lack of political correctness to kill an attacker in self defense. Even in gun hating places like New York City, the survivor of a self defense encounter is usually just charged with a violation relating to possessing the tool they used to defend themselves.

Jeff

I guess I was just hoping you wouldn't be so hypocritical on this one and we could gain something from your law enforcement experience and knowledge. Sadly, even in the face of the same amount of evidence, you are quick to give those who make the same kind of assumptions you do a hard time when they assume them against police officers. I've seen you do this more than once, and in fact, I used your exact words to illustrate this. Not that I always disagreed with you, but it does illustrate some obvious bias that I cannot help but take into account when you post your opinion.

You leave no room for other possibilities based on evidence you didn't see or hear, and then validate your opinion because the cops and DA obviously thought it was reason enough to go to trial with.

Some of us have had poor experiences with police officers and the law, which are contrary to your experiences being a law enforcement officer. I find it hypocritical that it is okay to pass judgment on this fellow based on one poorly detailed article and not another when the only difference is that one is a police officer and the other is not.

Based on my morals and my experience dealing with violent criminals as a normal citizen living with them, and not a law enforcement officer, I say that based on only what I read here, the shooter did what he had to do, especially considering had that gun not jammed he would have likely been dead, certainly injured. YMMV, but I have concerns that your LEO bias has tainted your opinion on this one. But that's why we discuss these things, I now understand your perspective a little better, I don't agree with you, but maybe there is something to the fact that it went to trial...he’s probably guilty then.



This is not meant as an attack, but I felt compelled to explain why I could not bring myself to place much weight on your opinion, one I have generally respected in the past.

 

[Jeff White]

NineseveN,
I'm not saying he's guilty. My point in posting this was to bring out the need to be careful with what you say. If his statement from the videotape is reported accurately in the news article, it's going to go a long way towards convincing the jury that he executed a man who was already down and no longer a threat.

And yes it's been my experience that prosecutors don't spend money on jury trials they don't think they can win hands down. Jury trials are very costly to the state. Perhaps they charged murder1 and then murder 2 hoping that Coliins would plead to manslaughter and they could dispose of the entire case cheaply.

It's a sad state of affairs that our criminal justice system is driven by money and not justice, but believe me it is.

Jeff

 

[NMshooter]

Shot with a .22, and the man fell down?

Executed with a .22 means to me that it was placed against the temple, eye or ear socket, or base of the skull, but maybe the shooter got lucky.

When calibers like that are mentioned I want to know about any powder burns on the person shot.

Any way you slice it, shooting someone on the ground will draw a lot more attention, so there should be some compelling reason for it, and hopefully an obvious one. The .25 in the hand of the man on the ground would help.

 

[NineseveN]

NineseveN,
I'm not saying he's guilty. My point in posting this was to bring out the need to be careful with what you say. If his statement from the videotape is reported accurately in the news article, it's going to go a long way towards convincing the jury that he executed a man who was already down and no longer a threat.

And yes it's been my experience that prosecutors don't spend money on jury trials they don't think they can win hands down. Jury trials are very costly to the state. Perhaps they charged murder1 and then murder 2 hoping that Coliins would plead to manslaughter and they could dispose of the entire case cheaply.

It's a sad state of affairs that our criminal justice system is driven by money and not justice, but believe me it is.

Jeff

Point taken. Thank you.

I understand you probably used this post to do what you have often done, try and edcuate us all on th use of deadly force and what can happen in the aftermath, I guess I took exception to your comment that went along with the post. I appreciate that, even if I have to bust your nuggets from time to time.

 

[Jeff White]

UPDATE

So will the jury buy this version of events or will they focus on the "He was squirming so I shot him" statement from the videotape?

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...0D30F09F8FD314058625710900131281?OpenDocument

Chesterfield landlord testifies he had to kill boarder
By William C. Lhotka
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
02/02/2006

CHESTERFIELD

A landlord in Chesterfield repeatedly told a jury in St. Louis County Circuit Court on Wednesday that he would have been a dead man if he hadn't shot a boarder on April 29 of last year.

The landlord, Charles Collins, 73, of the 1500 block of Dresden Lake Court, said it was either him or Joseph Maiorana, 63, who ended up being shot five times.

Collins is charged with second-degree murder and armed criminal action. His attorney, Steve Sokolik, is claiming self-defense. A dispute over a $300 security deposit led to the confrontation.

Collins told the jury the following story:

Maiorana came to his home about 4:20 p.m. that day, saying he was moving out, and demanded the security deposit. Collins, who had hidden a .22-caliber pistol in his living room and had a .25-caliber automatic in his pocket, replied that Maiorana could have the deposit back after he moved and Collins inspected the room.

"Maiorana said, 'I want that $300 now or I'm going to beat the hell out of you,'" Collins told the jury. Collins said he walked into his garage, put a round into the chamber of the automatic and planned to "hold him at bay and call police" but that Maiorana had charged him and the gun went off twice.

On the garage floor, Maiorana took the gun away, "held it up to my head, and nothing happened," Collins said. "He beat me with the gun and his fists. He said: 'I'm going to kill you.'"

Maiorana went back into the house.

"I thought my best chance of staying alive was getting that .22. I knew he could unjam that gun at any moment; I had to shoot him," the defendant said.

Collins walked past Maiorana into the living room, got the .22, and shot Maiorana, who went down. Then Collins shot him twice more.

In a series of questions to which Collins reluctantly answered in the affirmative, prosecutor Alan Key asked the defendant if he could have called police before Maiorana arrived, or gotten a court order of protection.

After Maiorana, by then wounded, left the garage, Collins could have left through the open garage door or gotten into his SUV and driven away, Key suggested, and Collins could have locked himself in the master bedroom or left the house by the front door.

Or he could have fired just one shot and observed what damage it did before firing two more, Key said.

Collins claimed that Maiorana was still moving his arms and that Collins had thought he was reaching for the .25.

Closing arguments are set for today.

[email protected] 314-615-3283

 

[jashobeam]

Just curious

Does it matter if Collins says that he was still in fear for his life?

Haven't we all seen too many movies where the fallen BG revives and attempts to do more harm? Perhaps this repeated exposure to Hollywood "reality" had tainted Collins' judgement, leaving him to feel compelled to end the threat squirming on his floor.

Let me say, however, that I find it bewildering that an unarmed old man would venture back into his house where he knows there exists an armed man. I would need to see the layout of the house to decide if this scenario is credible.

Also, maybe, depending on the layout of the property, fleeing the scene would not have possible for a 73 year old man. What is his health like? Could he have escaped safely before his assailant returned after unjamming the gun? Which was closer, an escape route or the back-up gun?

 

[HankB]

"He went down," Collins says on the tape. "He was squirming. I shot him again."

Squirming is a threat? Since when? It sounds like Collins executed him. He didn't say; "He kept trying to get up and attack me so I shot him again." or "He was on the floor trying to point his gun at me so I shot him again."

I simply don't know what actually happened, on my initial read I assumed (always dangerous) Maiorana still had the .25 . . . but does anyone here doubt that Collins would be better off if he'd kept his mouth shut until after speaking with a good attorney?

 

[Jeff White]

Hank,
I think you've just hit on the lesson to be learned from this thread. Based on what I've read in the two articles, (I know it's incomplete information), I'm guessing the jury will look at all the inconsistancies and convict. I really feel his videotaped statement will be what they believe.

Jeff

 

[one-shot-one]

$0.02

"Contrary to popular belief on internet gun boards, the police and the prosecutors don't often go on witch hunts for evil armed citizens who had the audacity and lack of political correctness to kill an attacker in self defense. Even in gun hating places like New York City, the survivor of a self defense encounter is usually just charged with a violation relating to possessing the tool they used to defend themselves.

Jeff"

I do not know these police and the prosecutors & I do not have any proof, but I have my doubts that there are no prosecutors that would take a case for strictly political reasons.

"Maiorana said, 'I want that $300 now or I'm going to beat the hell out of you,"

Maiorana took the gun away, "held it up to my head, and nothing happened," Collins said. "He beat me with the gun and his fists. He said: 'I'm going to kill you.'"

If this part is true I think that there is a good chance that i may have shot till i preceived no more threat myself.
But then I was not there either & yes always have your lawyer talk to the officials for you.

 

[Jeff White]

I didn't say that no cases were ever prosecuted for political reasons. I'm saying that in cases where the statements of those involved and the physical evidence clearly showed that it was a legitimate self defense case, that the self defense wasn't an issue, but sometimes possession of the tool used was the issue.

Jeff

 

[buzz_knox]

NineseveN,
I'm not saying he's guilty.

If you said it looks like an execution to you, then yes, you are saying he's guilty.

 

[Jeff White]

Buzz,
I merely said that to stimulate discussion. He's not guilty until the jury says he is. I would bet these words, made in a videotaped statement to the police convict him.

"He went down," Collins says on the tape. "He was squirming. I shot him again."

If he is convicted, he will regret this rather flippant statement. You have to admit, that statement combined with the fact the killing shots were delivered into the head, sure make it sound like an execution.

Jeff