Lawyers Debate Shooting..Self Defense or Second Degree Murder?

[buzz_knox]

Actually, I don't have to admit it. People involved in interrogations after stressful events tend to not be thinking straight. Cops aren't interrogated right then, but have an opportunity to calm down and get with counsel and reflect. Want to judge them based on their initial words or the whole picture, including what they have to say after reflection?

I'm more interested in the totality of the circumstances than a word. Is the statement by a 73 year old man who had been involved in a life or death circumstance that "he was squirming" really that inconsistent with someone wriggling in pain . . . yet still trying to work the action of a weapon? How many furtive movements shootings involve quite similar reactions? I have a recollection of a few LEOs who said some quite similar things, including having trouble figuring out exactly why they fired and then discovering that they'd seen a weapon, and had reacted before they were consciously aware of the fact.

As for the faith in the videotape, I'd have to know some other facts before I relied on that, such as how long was he being interrogated; how long had it been after the shooting; had he received medical attention; had he had an opportunity to have counsel; and what did the cops say?

There'd have to be more than a statement that "he was squiriming" before I'd call it an "execution." And no, "execution" isn't a word normally chosen to stimulate conversation without implying guilt.

 

[joab]

Collins claimed that Maiorana was still moving his arms and that Collins had thought he was reaching for the .25.

I now direct your attention to definition one of squirming., submitted earlier.

Did the now dead guy drop the gun and go squirming for it?

If the jury convicts on the basis of the definition intended by a figure of speech it is truly made up od twelve idiots too stupid to get out of jury duty

But if it were truly a jury of his peers they would know the colloquial definition of squirming.

The facts of the shooting will hang him a lot quicker than a possibly misused word

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Execution, Squirming, problems of terms.

Jeff, you said that based on the text that it looked like an "execution" to you. Then the problem came down to the term "squirming."

My take on the read of the events is that it was not an execution, although it may have been a failure to stop self defense activity such as is known to happen in highly charged situations. Some folks call it the horrible name of "overkill" but since either something is killed or not, there is actually no such thing as overkill. You have "killed" and then you have abuse of a corpse.

So since when is squirming a threat? I am surprised you asked this question as a means of suggesting the downed man was not doing anything wrong to warrant being shot again. HankB was right and the guy should have kept his mouth shut.

There are many activities you could have posed the question about being a threat. Since when is "reaching" a threat? You can plug in words like...
walking
running
waving
holding his hands behind him
etc.

Most activities are simply not a threat when considered outside of context. Cops often get all bothered about people in a car during a traffic stop that are moving around too much. Since when is moving around in a car a threat of some sort? It depends on the context.

Since when is reaching for a wallet a threat? According to 4 NY officers in 1999, that very action was perceived as a furtive movement and they shot and killed Diallo.

As for the origin query about squirming being a threat, all this debate would have been moot had he said that the downed man was making furtive movements. Furtive movement are considered a threat in such conflict situations and the movements are not actually threatening if performed in a non-confrontational context.

 

[NineseveN]

Double Naught, you forget, it's different if you're a cop.

My thread and poll on if cops should follow rule #2 really opened my eyes to some things I had not been aware of before. I am still far from a cop basher, but when cops rush to judgement in cases like this, yet berate us for doing the same based on the same or simlar evidence when it is a cop as the suspect, well, you don't have to know calculus to get the answer to that one. Jeff is a good guy, I'm not talking about him specifically, just to be clear...but I see hints of the so-called thin blue line here.

Can't say I blame them. Anyone that belongs to a fraternity where you risk your lives often daily generally psuhes you outside of normal circles and alienates you into your own. That's human nature, and one that doesn't help me to trust the po po a whole lot these days, except maybe the ones I personally know, and even then.

Jeff is right in a way, "squirming" was a bad word to use, he should have said "furtive movement", it helps the police when they use it. Based on everything in this thread, I still don't see an execution, but I can understand the point, no matter how much I disagree with it.

We'll see what the jury thinks. Maybe Jeff is right?

 

[Jeff White]

Prosecutors amended the initial charge of first-degree murder to second-degree, which carries a penalty of 10 years to life in prison, and armed criminal action, which has a minimum of three years and a maximum of life.

Why did they originally charge 1st degree murder? It seems to me that the facts as presented to the states attorney, Collins' statement, the physical evidence, led the SA to believe that Collins had deliberately walked over and executed Maiorana.

Why did they amend the charge to second degree murder? Possibly because they couldn't prove that Collins intended to kill Maiorana before the fight started. But they still feel that they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Collins killed Maiorana after the threat to his life was over.

Given the limited information we have, we can reasonably assume that Mariorana came into Collins' part of the house and started a fight over the $300.00 security deposit. During the fight Maiorana was shot and killed. This type of thing usually results in manslaughter charges, if any charges are filed at all, not murder charges.

There seems to be an undercurrent of feeling here that the prosecutor is somehow guilty of misconduct because he doesn't buy Collins' story.

Buzz said;

People involved in interrogations after stressful events tend to not be thinking straight. Cops aren't interrogated right then, but have an opportunity to calm down and get with counsel and reflect.

Where in the news articles does it say when Collins made his statement? The shooting occurred on April 29, 2005. A lot of time has passed. Do you know that Collins only made one statement and that was made in the immediate aftermath of the shooting?

The jury watched tapes of Collins' statement to Chesterfield police Detective Rich Murphy and of a re-enactment.

Do you think that they videotaped a re-enactment in the hours after the shooting? I don't know how they do things in Knoxville, but around here, re-enactments are done days sometimes weeks after the event.

As for the faith in the videotape, I'd have to know some other facts before I relied on that, such as how long was he being interrogated; how long had it been after the shooting; had he received medical attention; had he had an opportunity to have counsel; and what did the cops say?

I'm sure that the states attorney knew all those things before he decided to use the videotape. I'm sure he could expect the defense attorney to try to refute the validity of the tape.

NineseveN said;

when cops rush to judgement in cases like this, yet berate us for doing the same based on the same or simlar evidence when it is a cop as the suspect,

I don't see how this is a rush to judgement. The system, the police who investigated the shooting and the prosecutor who filed the charges and took the case to trial looked at the totality of the circumstances. It's now in the hands of the jury.

The rush to judgement that happens in the other threads, is almost never over a court case, but in the news reports of the incident right after it happened, before the investigation was completed.

What can we learn from this incident and subsequent trial?

Jeff

 

[cookekdjr]

Never go by the media account on a case like this, without more info.
I'd like to know what's in the prosecutor's file. That will tell the story.
If the court had electronic filing, then the material should be available online, since the State would have filed it as a part of discovery.
-David

 

[NineseveN]

What can we learn from this incident and subsequent trial?

Jeff

Exaclty what you've advocated: shoot to stop the threat, not to kill...and keep yer pie hole shut and let'cher lawyer do the talkin.

 

[beerslurpy]

This is why you dont use crappy 25 dollar peashooters for self defense. That's the main lesson I learned from reading this.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Having done a training scenario where I popped one of the aggressors 2-3 times as he lay on the ground, I can sympathize with the defendant here. When you are keyed up and firing you can lay down a lot of fire in a short time. At the same time, I'd probably convict the guy if I were on the jury.

Leaving the scene and the returning with a .22 and delivering a few shots to a guy on the ground just doesn't look good. Maybe there was a good reason for it; but the guy didn't do himself any favors by talking before his lawyer showed up.

 

[Ryder]

Sorry, not a lawyer but I've hunted a lot and would like to respectfully submit a comment based on my experience.

My natural reaction to movement from dangerous game I am approaching after I thought it was supposed to be down is sudden shock and fear for my safety. The strength of this reaction is directly proportional to proximity. More bullets get fired instantly and reflexively since I am smart enough to still be on guard.

It doesn't require thinking, just a nice big adrenalin dump.

 

[Rockstar]

Reasonable doubt. In some jurisdictions, this would never have made it by the grand jury.

 

[Jeff White]

Well the majority consensus here was self defense

But the jury saw it otherwise. At 73 a ten year sentence is equivalent to a life sentence. I would bet it was the statement he made about shooting him again that convinced the jury to convict.

Jeff
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...B8348080C8DC5F0B86257149000481CE?OpenDocument

Landlord gets 10 years in killing
By William C. Lhotka
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
04/07/2006

CLAYTON

A judge sentenced a 73-year-old landlord Thursday to 10 years in prison for shooting a boarder five times at his home in Chesterfield last year.

Charles Collins, of the 1500 block of Dresden Lake Court, showed no emotion as St. Louis County Circuit Judge Colleen Dolan imposed the sentence and corrections officers led Collins in handcuffs from the Clayton courtroom.

A jury convicted Collins on Feb. 3 of voluntary manslaughter and armed criminal action in the fatal shooting of Joseph Maiorana, 63.

The jury had rejected arguments by prosecutor Alan Key to convict the defendant of second-degree murder. Likewise, the jury rejected arguments by defense attorney Steve Sokolik to acquit Collins on self-defense grounds.

Sokolik asked Dolan for leniency, saying that Collins' life up until the shooting had been exemplary and without any criminal conviction. Collins told the judge he plans to appeal the convictions.

Collins said in his trial that he and Maiorana had quarreled on April 29, 2005, over a $300 security deposit then fought in the garage over control of a .25-caliber pistol that went off twice in the struggle, hitting the victim in the jaw and chest.

The wounded Maiorana got control of the gun and put it against Collins' head but it misfired, Collins said. Both men went back into the house. Collins said he got a second gun he had hidden in the living room and shot Maiorana three more times.

Sokolik said Collins feared for his life. Key said the defendant had several opportunities to take other action such as walking out the garage door, driving away after the victim went inside or locking himself in the bedroom.

[email protected] 314-615-3283

 

[DKSuddeth]

Did I read that he fired 3 shots, then after the guy was down and squirming, he fired 2 more in to his head?

If thats the case, I wouldn't call it murder, but he went far beyond self defense at that point.

 

[tanksoldier]

Armed and concious is still a threat.


<<Squirming is a threat? Since when? It sounds like Collins executed him.>>

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Moving, with a gun in your hand or near to hand equals "threat" to me. Collins would have no way of knowing whether or not the jam was permanent or could be cleared within the next nansecond.

Self defense. Next case.