I'm pretty new to reloading and could use some guidance. I bought some lrn bullets for my 9mm in .356 dia. 115gn and loaded up a few to try. They shot fine so made a hundred to shoot. After I was done I pulled the gun apart and seems to have quite a bit of leading. I slugged the barrel and i get .356 the best i can tell with calipers. I know your suppose to have a bullet .001 or .002 bigger than the barrel but I have trouble finding it. Do you get ones for a 38 and go heavier than 115gn or am I not looking in the wrong place. Thanks for any help I've learned a lot from reading on here. Doug
lead bullet questions
- Thread starter grogetr
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LiveLife
Member
Welcome to THR.
It will help to post more information like pistol make/model, bullet make/weight/sizing (we already know they are 115 gr .356" RN), powder/charge, OAL/COL, whether FCD was used, etc.
This way someone with the same pistol maybe able to verify the groove diameter of the barrel and suggest loads that worked for the same pistol.
It will help to post more information like pistol make/model, bullet make/weight/sizing (we already know they are 115 gr .356" RN), powder/charge, OAL/COL, whether FCD was used, etc.
This way someone with the same pistol maybe able to verify the groove diameter of the barrel and suggest loads that worked for the same pistol.
Schwing
Member
You may want to consider casting your own as well. I started reloading a little over a year ago and was having horrible luck with the lead bullets I was buying. The start up cost was about $300 for me but it has been worth every penny. I use lee molds and all of them drop bullets that are about .002 oversize. From there, you can either just shoot them or re-size them down a bit.
I have heard that Pennbullets are good and they do let you order oversize but I have never been able to get any. I placed an order about this time last year and still have not received them.
I have heard that Pennbullets are good and they do let you order oversize but I have never been able to get any. I placed an order about this time last year and still have not received them.
Thanks for the replies. The gun is a Ruger sr9 full size with maybe 5 or 600 rounds thru it. The bullets are from standard bullet co. I loaded them with 4.3 grn w231 to oal of 1.1 This was the min. charge in the data I had. I use a Lee 4 hole CTP with the FCD. They cycled fine and worked ok but noticed the brass didn't eject with much force and would hit you. I made up a few with 4.6 grn and they ejected much better but didn't shoot enough to see if that made a difference in how dirty the barrel got. I loaded 150 with the more powder I can shoot if you think that changes anything. I have 500 of these bullets so will go ahead and use them up but want to know what I can do before I buy more bullets. There is a gun show this weekend I was thinking about going to to see what they have. Thanks Doug
LiveLife
Member
How will that help the OP with the leading problem from the particular bullet in use? That's like saying the solution to a car problem is to consider building yourself a new car - More practical solution would be to fix the car.Schwing said:
Doug, I suggest the following:grogetr said:
- Pull some loaded rounds and measure the diameter of the bullet base. If you measure any decrease (amount may vary depending on the varying thickness of case wall), the FCD is post-sizing the bullet and I would remove the FCD from the turret and seat/taper crimp with the third die. If you do not measure any decrease, you may be OK.
- Measure the diameter of the loaded case around the bullet base and if it is less than .377", I would reduce the amount of taper crimp. I usually add .021"-0.22" to the diameter of the lead bullet (so .356" + .021" = .377") to just return the flare back to flat on the bullet and use .377"-.378" as the taper crimp. Also, do not overly flare the case, just flare enough to set the bullet and seat without shaving the bullet side.
- Try to use the longest OAL/COL that will pass the barrel drop test (fall in freely into the chamber and spin without hitting the rifling) and reliably feed/chamber from the magazine which is your "working OAL/COL". If your working OAL/COL is longer than 1.100", it will reduce the amount of high pressure gas leakage around the bullet and decrease gas cutting/leading.
- 4.3 gr is the start charge Hodgdon lists for W231 and depending on the hardness of the bullet, may not be sufficiently expanding the bullet base when powder ignites to seal the bullet with the barrel to reduce high pressure gas leakage - http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
Since you already tested 4.6 gr, I would clean the leading from the barrel (many use copper scrubber strands tested with magnet wrapped around old bore brush to remove leading) and range test 4.6 gr load using the "working OAL/COL" without the use of FCD (especially if you measured any post-sizing) to see if the leading problem improves.
When I am doing powder work up/load development, I usually load 10 rounds at each powder charge to test for leading/reliability/accuracy. When testing for leading, I take a mini gun cleaning kit to the range and clean the barrel between powder charges to start with clean barrel/rifling to check for leading.
I would first verify the true groove diameter of your SR9 barrel and buy bullets that are sized .001" over.
Also, you may want to consider using heavier 124/125 gr lead RN bullets over the 115 gr RN as they have longer bullet base than 115 gr bullets and tend to produce less leading and greater accuracy. The longer bullet base also seats deeper in the case neck to produce more consistent chamber pressures and expand the bullet base too.
Do you have a mic? Use it for two things: Slug your barrel and measure the diameter and pull one of your loaded rounds and measure the base to make sure its not getting squished smaller with the factory crimp die.
Leading is not caused by the bullet being too large, its caused by it being too small or the pressure being too high. Each of things causes "cutting" which is gas going around the bullet shearing off lead and depositing it on the barrel.
I shoot at least 15k of lead bullets each year, I shot 300 9mm's last night at a match so I know how to do this. I want to tell you that 9mm is the more difficult rounds to load with lead.
My suggestion for you is to drop the load down to 4.0gr of 231. Its what I use and it cycles my glock and m&p and is accurate. I clean my barrels after at least 500rds and there is not leading in it.
I have never used those bullets. You did not mention if they are lubed, I assume they are.
If you get some 125gr lead, my load is 3.7gr of 231, and with 147's my load is 3.5gr of 231.
Don't worry too much about OAL with these type of loads
BDS wrote:
[QUOTEAlso, you may want to consider using heavier 124/125 gr lead RN bullets over the 115 gr RN as they have longer bullet base than 115 gr bullets and tend to produce less leading and greater accuracy. The longer bullet base also seats deeper in the case neck to produce more consistent chamber pressures and expand the bullet base too.
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][/QUOTE]
Well I agree and disagree with this. Maybe for different reasons: My glock loves 115gr light loads, its a tack driver and is more accurate than any other 9mm I have. My M&P is erratic with them. I have some theorys about this but won't go into it. Some guns like different weight bullets. All of my 9's shoot 147gr lead real well
The bullet base is the same diameter and pressure is pressure. Consistent chamber pressures? Well your load and not the bullet determines the pressure. As your load changes so does the pressure. If you want to "smack" the base use a light load of a very fast powder and you will get that. Titegroup, bullseye, AA2, etc... I use 231 and titegroup and am happy with both.
Leading is not caused by the bullet being too large, its caused by it being too small or the pressure being too high. Each of things causes "cutting" which is gas going around the bullet shearing off lead and depositing it on the barrel.
I shoot at least 15k of lead bullets each year, I shot 300 9mm's last night at a match so I know how to do this. I want to tell you that 9mm is the more difficult rounds to load with lead.
My suggestion for you is to drop the load down to 4.0gr of 231. Its what I use and it cycles my glock and m&p and is accurate. I clean my barrels after at least 500rds and there is not leading in it.
I have never used those bullets. You did not mention if they are lubed, I assume they are.
If you get some 125gr lead, my load is 3.7gr of 231, and with 147's my load is 3.5gr of 231.
Don't worry too much about OAL with these type of loads
BDS wrote:
[QUOTEAlso, you may want to consider using heavier 124/125 gr lead RN bullets over the 115 gr RN as they have longer bullet base than 115 gr bullets and tend to produce less leading and greater accuracy. The longer bullet base also seats deeper in the case neck to produce more consistent chamber pressures and expand the bullet base too.
__________________
][/QUOTE]
Well I agree and disagree with this. Maybe for different reasons: My glock loves 115gr light loads, its a tack driver and is more accurate than any other 9mm I have. My M&P is erratic with them. I have some theorys about this but won't go into it. Some guns like different weight bullets. All of my 9's shoot 147gr lead real well
The bullet base is the same diameter and pressure is pressure. Consistent chamber pressures? Well your load and not the bullet determines the pressure. As your load changes so does the pressure. If you want to "smack" the base use a light load of a very fast powder and you will get that. Titegroup, bullseye, AA2, etc... I use 231 and titegroup and am happy with both.
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LiveLife
Member
All of our pistols/barrels are different and OP posted 115 gr with 4.3 gr of W231 @ 1.100" did not eject with much force. I am going by OP's gun/barrel/range report and decreasing the powder charge probably will reduce the force of ejection further and may increase slide cycling/reliability issues.grogetr said:
As I suggested, determining max and workig OAL/COL that brings bearing surface of the bullet closer to the start of rifling will decrease high pressure gas leakage around the bullet base which in turn will reduce gas cutting/leading.
I figured if OP ended up using longer OAL/COL than 1.100", an increase in powder charge may be needed and suggested testing the already tested 4.6 gr load.
If OP determines the FCD was post-sizing the bullet and reducing the bullet diameter, 4.3 gr load may still work with bullet diameter remaining at .356".
But we haven't heard back from the OP. Perhaps we should wait and see what measurements are obtained. Who knows, if the groove diameter of the barrel is .356", OP may not fully resolve the leading issue until .357" sized bullets are used.
We haven't heard from Ruger owners. Anyone with fullsize Ruger SR9 care to post working loads that won't lead the barrel?
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Or perhaps we should tell of what we have done, not what we have read.
My friend has a SR9 and he has shot my 9mm loads in his gun. They worked although he found them light,,,but accurate. I'm not talking speculation here and I'm not doing research on this. I have done it!
In my opinion, from my EXPERIENCE, 4.3gr of 231 may be too hot with a 115gr lead round nose bullet. IF, the cases eject and the leading problem goes away then the problem was fixed. If it does not then try different bullets or heavier bullets.
The factory crimp die may be causing problems too but for me the FCD caused more accuracy problems for me rather than leading.
My friend has a SR9 and he has shot my 9mm loads in his gun. They worked although he found them light,,,but accurate. I'm not talking speculation here and I'm not doing research on this. I have done it!
In my opinion, from my EXPERIENCE, 4.3gr of 231 may be too hot with a 115gr lead round nose bullet. IF, the cases eject and the leading problem goes away then the problem was fixed. If it does not then try different bullets or heavier bullets.
The factory crimp die may be causing problems too but for me the FCD caused more accuracy problems for me rather than leading.
LiveLife
Member
Well, only that the OP maybe using different make of bullet with different hardness with different nose profile/bearig surface length with different quality lube.
But since you speak from actual experience and I have not shot lead loads in SR9 and you have, I will politely bow out of this discussion. EOM
But since you speak from actual experience and I have not shot lead loads in SR9 and you have, I will politely bow out of this discussion. EOM
Arkansas Paul
Member
When I started casting for 9mm I found this thread over at the castboolits site extremely helpful. Many say that 9mm wasn't hard for them to shoot cast through, but for many it was a PITA, and it was for me.
I know you're buying bullets instead of casting your own, but it does outline some of the issues that can arise with cast lead and 9mm.
Hope it helps.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm
I know you're buying bullets instead of casting your own, but it does outline some of the issues that can arise with cast lead and 9mm.
Hope it helps.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm
Ok where to start. I do not have a mic so all measuring is done with a digital caliper. I did slug the barrel and it measured .356 on the high lands of the slug which would be the grooves of the barrel which I assume is right.
The case at the end next to bullet is showing .376 to .377. I pulled a few bullets and they measured .355 to.356.
The bullets are lubed and have a tiny line in them from the end of the case where it was crimped. When I load them the flair is barely enough to get the bullet to sit in it. The end of the case is about 1/32" past the lube grove with oal of 1.1.
With 4.3 gn of w231 most of the brass would come back and hit you sometimes in the face. They ejected much better with the 4.6 load.
I guess I should have taken the gun apart before I made a bunch more but thought I was ok after they ejected better. Newbie mistake I guess. How many rounds do you need to fire to see if you are going to have issues with this?
Thanks so much for your time and input on this. These kind of things are hard to learn from books. Thanks Doug
The case at the end next to bullet is showing .376 to .377. I pulled a few bullets and they measured .355 to.356.
The bullets are lubed and have a tiny line in them from the end of the case where it was crimped. When I load them the flair is barely enough to get the bullet to sit in it. The end of the case is about 1/32" past the lube grove with oal of 1.1.
With 4.3 gn of w231 most of the brass would come back and hit you sometimes in the face. They ejected much better with the 4.6 load.
I guess I should have taken the gun apart before I made a bunch more but thought I was ok after they ejected better. Newbie mistake I guess. How many rounds do you need to fire to see if you are going to have issues with this?
Thanks so much for your time and input on this. These kind of things are hard to learn from books. Thanks Doug
1KPerDay
Member
FYI Missouri Bullet Company will also size 9mms however you like... I have them make mine .358-.359 for my .357" bored SIG and Beretta. No leading.
Arkansas Paul
Member
You can't be scared to apply some flair to it. 9mm cases are tapered so they get thicker towards the bottom. If you're not flaring enough, you may be swaging the bullet down before you even crimp. Some people order the .38 S&W expander plug and install it in their 9mm powder through expanding die so it flares more than the standard 9mm does.
Flare that sucker, then crimp it just enough to remove it.
Like 1kPerDay said, you may need to order your bullets a little larger. With a bore measuring .356, you need a .357 bullet.
Excellent! You are really figuring this out much faster than any other new loader. Important: You slugged your barrel and its .356, and the bullets are .356. My friends SR9 probably is too. The bullets should be "at least" 1/1000 larger than the bore so your bullets are too small as you can't make your bore tighter. I ran into this with my M&P 9 also.
One other solution is for you to use hollow base bullets which will expand much more than flat base. Another is to buy oversized bullets in .357 which is what I have bought for my M&P. I also use them in my glock without any problems.
My friend was shooting Berry's 125gr bullets behind 4.2gr of titegroup and they were tumbling all over out of his SR9 But in my glock they were accurate. My bore in my glock is .355.
Lower the load. Try 4.0gr of 231 and see how those 115gr shoot. Bench rest it and put it on paper, seperate targets and shoot them along with the hotter ones. If any of them tumble it means the load is too hot or the bullet is undersized and gas is going around the bullet. They don't get stabalized and they tumble. Not all of them, some of them will shoot well but the pattern will spread out as more and more gas goes around the bullet.
I did an indepth test a few months ago with 115gr lrn bullets and titegroup. I found that powder when I could find nothing else. I looked at the load data and started below minimum. I loaded fifteen rounds of each: 3.5, 3.8, 4.1, and 4.4gr. The 3.5gr load would not cycle my M&p but were accurate. The 3.8 were accurate and everything worked. One nice ragged hole too. With 4.1 only one was a flier but the group started spreading out, and with 4.4gr of titegroup behind a 115gr lrn one third of them were keyholing. I wish I saved the seperate targets as they really hit home and was proof of what was happening.
The parameters for 9mm lead bullets are tighter than just about any other round I can think of. You have a high pressure round with a small diameter bullet. And you have an oversized bore. The amount of powder to use will be your challenge.
Your mission if you choose to accept it: Load powerful enough to cycle the gun and soft enough to not tumble the bullet. And you will do away with the leading now that you know what is causing it.
It took me years to figure this out the hard way. I haven't leaded up a barrel for five years and all I shoot is lead.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
In theory, yes, the bullet should be just a hair larger than the bore. But a hollow-base slug should not be needed to take care of a 0.000" difference.
If you do get leading at a mild velocity, try a higher pressure load. The bullet will "upset" or "obdurate" a bit more and seal the bore quite effectively.
Sometimes cast bullets take a little bit of experimenting. This bullet size or that? Harder alloy, or softer? Higher pressure, or lower? Sometimes you can get a clue based on what the leading looks like. If it's leading mostly in the first inch of barrel in front of the chamber, raise the load pressure. If it's leading more toward the muzzle, might be pushing too hard. Etc.
Try moving up a bit closer to the top end of the charge range for your powder, or try a different powder, and see what results you get. That's probably easier than custom-ordering oversize bullets just because your bore is exactly the same size as the bullet, not 0.001" smaller.
If you do get leading at a mild velocity, try a higher pressure load. The bullet will "upset" or "obdurate" a bit more and seal the bore quite effectively.
Sometimes cast bullets take a little bit of experimenting. This bullet size or that? Harder alloy, or softer? Higher pressure, or lower? Sometimes you can get a clue based on what the leading looks like. If it's leading mostly in the first inch of barrel in front of the chamber, raise the load pressure. If it's leading more toward the muzzle, might be pushing too hard. Etc.
Try moving up a bit closer to the top end of the charge range for your powder, or try a different powder, and see what results you get. That's probably easier than custom-ordering oversize bullets just because your bore is exactly the same size as the bullet, not 0.001" smaller.
If the bullets are to small in dia. is working on loads going to do any good or should I get some bigger bullets and then start testing. How many rounds do you usually need to shoot before you start seeing the fouling.
The fouling was pretty much the full length of the bore. It looked like lines in the grooves of the rifling. I never had this with factory loads so assumed it must be from the lead bullets.
The fouling was pretty much the full length of the bore. It looked like lines in the grooves of the rifling. I never had this with factory loads so assumed it must be from the lead bullets.
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Check the post above (number 16).I'd say 100 or 200 rounds should be enough to see the leading if you're going to have a non-optimal situation.
Normally, I load Missouri Bullets 147s for my xDM 9mm, and with the load I use, I almost never clean the bore. No lead build up after thousands.
Arkansas Paul
Member
In theory, if you find the sweet spot, you won't see fouling. I've got a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt that has probably shot 1500 cast bullets and I've never had to clean lead out of it.
When I was experimenting with my 9mm, sometimes I would shoot 20 rounds and it would look like a smoothboree. :banghead:
Arkansas Paul
Member
Do as Sam suggested. Try loading to a near max or max load and see if it takes care of it. If it doesn't, then try larger bullets.
Ok I will shoot more of the ones with 4.6 gn and see what it does and make up some with 4.8 which is the max load.
I shot about 70 of the 4.3 loads and it was pretty dirty. I think they were shooting ok because the holes in the paper looked round. I don't think I want to go less because of the brass hitting me on ejection.
Thank you all for the help this is quite the learning experience. Doug
I shot about 70 of the 4.3 loads and it was pretty dirty. I think they were shooting ok because the holes in the paper looked round. I don't think I want to go less because of the brass hitting me on ejection.
Thank you all for the help this is quite the learning experience. Doug
Arkansas Paul
Member
If lube was the problem it would only be leading the last couple inches of the barrel. If the entire barrel is leaded, its likely not a lube problem.
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