lead bullet questions

[GLOOB]

Pull a few cartridges of different headstamps and measure the base of the bullet. IME, a lot of 9mm cases swage the base of the bullet, making it smaller than it started out. Even though you are loading .356" bullets, you might be shooting .353" bullets. Buying bigger bullets will not fix this problem. If you have this issue, you can try fiddling with your expander die, but you probably need a new one.

Two good expanders for 9mm cast are the Lyman M die or a Lee 38SW expander plug in a 9mm expander die.

 

[grogetr]

I did pull some bullets they measured .355 .3555 .356 as I turned them in the caliper. The die set is a new lee 4 die carbide set. I expand the case enough I can set the bullet in the mouth about 1/32" and I don't see any peeling of lead after the bullet is seated.
I'm going to shoot some of what I have made up today and let you know whats up. Thanks Doug

 

[LiveLife]

Doug, if the .356" lead bullets are measuring anything smaller after being run through the FCD, they are being post-sized. The variations you measured maybe from the varying thickness case walls of different headstamp cases. You can test this by loading some rounds without the FCD and pull the bullets to measure the diameter.

I also use Lee pistol dies but do not use the FCD for lead bullets. I seat and taper crimp in the same step and do not have leading issues with my barrels that have .355"-.356" groove diameter with .356" sized bullets (I use 14-16-18 BHN bullets from Dardas/Missouri/Z-Cast compared to 22-24 BHN) and I often use low to mid range load data with 124/125 gr 9mm and W231/HP-38.

Any reduction in bullet diameter will allow more high pressure gas leakage around the bullet base and increase gas cutting/leading as more liquefied lube gets blown off the bullet surface, leaving it "naked". Were your loads particularly smokey?

I would suggest you remove the FCD from the turret and load some seating/taper crimping to .377"- .378" with the third die for the 4.6 gr load. Also, use the longest OAL/COL that will drop in the chamber freely and reliably feed/chamber from the magazine to further reduce the high presssure gas leakage.

I checked the Standard Bullet Company website and the 9mm RN bullet picture they show is the "stepped" profile and I typically use longer than 1.125" OAL/COL for my pistols with the "stepped" profile RN bullets - http://standardbulletcompany.com/9mm.html

Make sure you remove the leading in the barrel completely before you do any more range testing as residual lead smeared on the rifling will add to leading and reduce accuracy. Copper strands wrapped around old bore brush will remove the leading after several passes (like Chore Boy but test with magnet to be sure they are not copper coated steel). I use mine dipped in Hoppes #9 solvent.

BTW, Glen Fryxell has an excellent chapter on leading definitions, cause and prevention in his free ebook. It's a very good read for anyone loading with lead bullets - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

 

[Sam1911]

Just to add to the confusion, to reduce the need to chamber-check every round, I run every 9mm cartridge through the Lee FCD as the last step in my 550. So at least mine -- with my bore diameter, and the Missouri Bullet Co. slugs I use, and my powder -- doesn't produce post-sizing to any degree that matters.

But like I said, there are a lot of variables in play at the same time when you load lead. Any one of them significantly out of whack -- or a combination of them ever so slightly non-optimal in just the wrong ways -- can cause leading. Some times it takes a bit of experimenting to figure out which factor or combination of factors is plaguing you.

 

[LiveLife]

Sam, I think this is where "hardness or softness" of lead bullets come into play.

I used to use harder 22-24 BHN bullets and got leading unless the bullet "fit" was proper by .001"+ oversized and I pushed the loads hard.

With softer 18 BHN Missouri (and 14-16 BHN Dardas/Z-Cast) bullets, I found the bullet base deformed easier to seal with the barrel (obturation), even at below high range load data.

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, I've seen similar things.

 

[LiveLife]

I have not used Stand Bullet Company bullets and don't know how hard they are and since Doug posted groove diameter measured out to .356" and got leading with 4.3 gr load and FCD, I suggested the testing of 4.6 gr load without the FCD.

Will be interesting what Doug finds.

 

[grogetr]

I looked at the link to the pic of the bullet but mine aren't stepped like that, they're smooth on the side. I have no idea of the hardness it isn't on the box.
I will do some testing later going to let it warm up a bit, it's only 20deg right now! Thanks for all the help Doug

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I expand the case enough I can set the bullet in the mouth about 1/32" and I don't see any peeling of lead after the bullet is seated.

It doesn't matter one bit if you don't see lead shavings. You have to bell the hell out of a 9mm case when seating a lead bullet or you run the risk of sizing the bullet down in the case. I had issues with this as well so I understand where you're coming from.

 

[blarby]

In theory, if you find the sweet spot, you won't see fouling.

Thats less theory, and more of a fact.


Sam and BDS seem to have this one mostly in hand.

I will add to the OP that if you do want to try different diameter bullets, one of THR's most friendly businesses is more than hapy to do custom sizing runs if you are willing to buy 1k or so.

They often get requests for custom sizes- so you may have to wait a small bit till brad runs 'em through (given the current demand) but you will get 'em !

I would second the higher charge idea. Sometimes without enough heat, you don't get enough obturation, and your bullet "skates on the rails" so to speak, leaving the first line of lead and lube residue that cuts every bullet after it- and can lead to some ferocious leading.

While you are testing, if you are comfortable with it, you can run 1 or 2 FMJ's every 6 or 7 lead rounds and it will push the lead and lube fouling right out. This way you try a mag at one charge- get the fouling out after inspection- try the next mag at the next charge....wash , rinse, repeat.

Once you hit the magic load ( charge and if necessary bullet diameter) you should be able to tell in less than a magazines' worth of ammo. Bad loads will show within that time, so its easy to spot at the range, but hard to clean. I've used the FMJ method when dialing powder charges in with finicky bores before and it works fine.

As a caveat- shooting an FMJ into a bbl thats had 1000 of the wrong lead bullets shot through it, and is now very constricted will lead to some issues. Blowing out the residue of a handful, not so much.

 

[Sam1911]

You have to bell the hell out of a 9mm case when seating a lead bullet or you run the risk of sizing the bullet down in the case.

Again, though, that's not a universal -- or even common -- problem. IF you have leading and you've tracked down every other issue (bullet size, hardness optimized, powder/pressure, etc) and you still can't beat the fouling, then load a few bullets and then pull them and check for post-sizing or the bullet perhaps being resized by the case itself.

Surely it must be possible, though it isn't something I'd even ever heard of anyone seeing until this year.

 

[LiveLife]

I looked at the link to the pic of the bullet but mine aren't stepped like that, they're smooth on the side. I have no idea of the hardness it isn't on the box.

If the bullets are the more rounder nose without the step than the more pointed stepped bullets, 1.100" OAL/COL sounds about right.

BTW, I offered to send the OP an assortment of 14-16-18 BHN 124/147 gr bullets (RN with and without step) sized .356" from Dardas/Missouri/Z-Cast bullet casters. This way Doug could do some comparison testing and identify the bullet that may work better before buying the next box of bullets.

I also offered to send .357" sized bullets.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Surely it must be possible, though it isn't something I'd even ever heard of anyone seeing until this year.

I am using a softer bullet than most, so maybe that is why I had the issue of the case sizing the bullet down. I use about a 60/40 mixture of clip on wheel weights/pure lead. I figure that BHN is in the 9-10 range. I bet that's why mine size down easier. But they sure shoot good when you get them seated without swaging down.

 

[sexybeast]

In theory, yes, the bullet should be just a hair larger than the bore. But a hollow-base slug should not be needed to take care of a 0.000" difference.

If you do get leading at a mild velocity, try a higher pressure load. The bullet will "upset" or "obdurate" a bit more and seal the bore quite effectively.

Well its more than theory. And a hollow base will obutrate and seal the bore where hard lead probably will not.
So if gas is cutting around the bullet and leading up the barrel we should add more pressure?

While you are testing, if you are comfortable with it, you can run 1 or 2 FMJ's every 6 or 7 lead rounds and it will push the lead and lube fouling right out. This way you try a mag at one charge- get the fouling out after inspection- try the next mag at the next charge....wash , rinse, repeat.

This does not work.

Just to add to the confusion, to reduce the need to chamber-check every round, I run every 9mm cartridge through the Lee FCD as the last step in my 550. So at least mine -- with my bore diameter, and the Missouri Bullet Co. slugs I use, and my powder -- doesn't produce post-sizing to any degree that matters.

Resizing the bullet in the case after it has been set does matter and will affect leading and accuracy.
Lose the FCD and taper crimp.

Good luck Doug. After reading some of these you will be chasing you tail for quite a while. Probably will make you want to just buy some FMJ.

 

[Sam1911]

Well its more than theory. And a hollow base will obutrate and seal the bore where hard lead probably will not.

As I said, a hollow-base could work. But that's swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.

Almost certainly not necessary. If you were doing something like shooting an old BP cartridge gun designed for a heel-based bullet, yeah you'd need that skirt to flare and seal the bore. But it's just way overkill for what we're doing. He's already within 0.001" of perfect.

So if gas is cutting around the bullet and leading up the barrel we should add more pressure?

Yup! Now you've got it! The extra pressure "upsets" "bumps up" or "obdurates" the bullet just like if you set it on an anvil and smacked it with a hammer. Swells the diameter just a hair. Pushing the pressure up to the sweet spot for your particular bullet hardness can stop leading.

Of course, pushing the pressure up too far (beyond that sweet spot) can make leading happen for other reasons. That's why you have to experiment and figure out what's working and what isn't. Adding a bit more powder and trying a few is a practically free and lot easier than ordering special less common bullets and then setting yourself up to be tied to a constricting solution. It might not help. If not, no harm done.

Just to add to the confusion, to reduce the need to chamber-check every round, I run every 9mm cartridge through the Lee FCD as the last step in my 550. So at least mine -- with my bore diameter, and the Missouri Bullet Co. slugs I use, and my powder -- doesn't produce post-sizing to any degree that matters.

Resizing the bullet in the case after it has been set does matter and will affect leading and accuracy.
Lose the FCD and taper crimp.

Don't know if this is directed at me, or at the OP, but as I said, it MIGHT matter in his situation.

It also might not. In my guns, it does not at all. I can easily go many thousands of rounds without even running a patch down the bore, and every 9mm and .45 ACP is run through an FCD.

It's always good to share your experiences and observations, but it is important to remember that every single gun is different and the only thing you get by insisting that you've got THE one and only gospel answer to someone's problem -- is egg on your face.

 

[sexybeast]

Yup! Now you've got it! The extra pressure "upsets" "bumps up" or "obdurates" the bullet just like if you set it on an anvil and smacked it with a hammer. Swells the diameter just a hair. Pushing the pressure up to the sweet spot for your particular bullet hardness can stop leading.

Of course, pushing the pressure up too far (beyond that sweet spot) can make leading happen for other reasons.

We will disagree on this. With soft lead in a 45 I would say yes, but with 9mm and hard lead in a loose bore [.356] I say no. Add to that is has less surface area in dia. and length [bearing surface] that bullet will skate down the barrel depositing lead every time when you increase pressure.
Another solution would be a gas check.

Quote:
Just to add to the confusion, to reduce the need to chamber-check every round, I run every 9mm cartridge through the Lee FCD as the last step in my 550. So at least mine -- with my bore diameter, and the Missouri Bullet Co. slugs I use, and my powder -- doesn't produce post-sizing to any degree that matters.

I wrote: "Resizing the bullet in the case after it has been set does matter and will affect leading and accuracy.
Lose the FCD and taper crimp."

Don't know if this is directed at me, or at the OP, but as I said, it MIGHT matter in his situation.

It also might not. In my guns, it does not at all. I can easily go many thousands of rounds without even running a patch down the bore, and every 9mm and .45 ACP is run through an FCD.

It's always good to share your experiences and observations, but it is important to remember that every single gun is different and the only thing you get by insisting that you've got THE one and only gospel answer to someone's problem -- is egg on your face

Yes it might matter alot. If the bullet is being resized smaller after it has been set it matters with lead, especially in a barrel that is oversized. I'm glad you had no problems in your gun but he is already having problems in his. Sizing the bullet smaller, even a little is the wrong direction.

I am sharing my extensive experiences with shooting lead in 9mm. As I have said before it is the most difficult round to shoot/load with lead bullets. Much more difficult that .40 or .45 which also have straight walled cases.
There is no egg on my face on this, but if Doug goes out and shoots 200 rds of max loads of 4.8gr of 231 there may be some more talk on the subject.

 

[Sam1911]

There is no egg on my face on this

No, certainly. You just seemed to be getting awfully wound up about folks posting all of their various experiences if they didn't look just like yours. You even said, "I've said my piece" and then came back for a few more shots. We appreciate lots of enthusiastic input, but be happy to be A contributor, not the guy owning the discussion.

I am sharing my extensive experiences with shooting lead in 9mm.

As is everyone else who posts here. As am I. Now, I'll admit that I don't usually load more than 10,000 or so 9mms in a year, and some years quite a bit less, so I'm not the expert many are. But that gives me a bit of experience that I feel might be helpful to share.

but if Doug goes out and shoots 200 rds of max loads of 4.8gr of 231 there may be some more talk on the subject.

Well, I'd certainly hope so! If he shoots a few hundred rounds and finds out that's NOT the answer, then -- just like I said -- he'll have another clue to the puzzle, and it cost him nothing. Or he might have found a solution. Can't know if you don't try!

But if he ends up needing hollow-base bullets, we'll pin a big shiny medal on you and it will say "EXPERT OF THE WEEK" on it in flashing neon letters.

 

[LiveLife]

An assortment of 14-16-18 BHN 124/147 gr sized .356"/.357" RN and SWC Dardas/Missouri/Z-Cast bullets going out to Doug via "Pay It Forward". ETA Monday.

Also included are various 115/124 gr jacketed/plated RN/HBRN/HP bullets.

Merry Christmas from THR.

 

[Sam1911]

Now that's right neighborly!

 

[LiveLife]

Doug and I had a nice chat on the phone and the bullet samples should help him get to the bottom of the leading issue.

 

[sexybeast]

No, certainly. You just seemed to be getting awfully wound up about folks posting all of their various experiences if they didn't look just like yours. You even said, "I've said my piece" and then came back for a few more shots. We appreciate lots of enthusiastic input, but be happy to be A contributor, not the guy owning the discussion.

Not wound up at all, just felt that there is some real bad advice here. [in my opinion] Felt the need to bring it up! And I do consider myself a contributor. Sorry to disagree with you so much and to make you so defensive. It was not my intention.

As is everyone else who posts here. As am I. Now, I'll admit that I don't usually load more than 10,000 or so 9mms in a year, and some years quite a bit less, so I'm not the expert many are. But that gives me a bit of experience that I feel might be helpful to share.

I do. With many different bullets. I'm not considering myself "the" expert on lead bullets in 9mm. I've tried some of these things. I do know what works and increasing the load behind a hard cast lead bullet does not work in 9mm. Perhaps in 45LC.
I also know a FCD does not help at all with 9mm.

Well, I'd certainly hope so! If he shoots a few hundred rounds and finds out that's NOT the answer, then -- just like I said -- he'll have another clue to the puzzle, and it cost him nothing. Or he might have found a solution. Can't know if you don't try!

But if he ends up needing hollow-base bullets, we'll pin a big shiny medal on you and it will say "EXPERT OF THE WEEK" on it in flashing neon letters

Check you barrel often Doug.

Never cared for neon signs. Gaudy. But thanks for the thought.

But I will bow out now.

 

[Schwing]

How will that help the OP with the leading problem from the particular bullet in use? That's like saying the solution to a car problem is to consider building yourself a new car - More practical solution would be to fix the car.

Unless I am mistaken (Correct me if I am wrong O.P.), he was asking how to prevent leading... Casting larger bullets will help reduce or eliminate leading.


To the O.P, As to fixing the bullets, I have a couple of suggestions below. I had the same problem when I started reloading. I saw an awesome deal on some Israeli military surplus 9mm bullets. They were around $40 per thousand... It seemed like such a good deal that I ordered 5k of them. They leaded my barrels horribly regardless of the powder or charge I used. As some have stated, leading down the entire length of the barrel is most likely caused by undersized bullets.

Thanks to a lot of the folks here, I learned about the bullet diameter issue and found some local bullet casters that made them in varying diameters that were more of a fit for my barrels. Then I moved on to casting my own.

A little later, I did find a fix for those bullets and have successfully loaded about 1000 of them. I squished them down on an arbor press and then ran them through a sizing die. Instead of being round nose they are truncated now but they shoot beautifully. If you have a lot of these and would like some instructions on how to do this, I will post some pictures.

 

[LiveLife]

Schwing, now that's a clever solution!. And if you don't have an arbor press, bench vise should work as well. You could even use your press to squish the bullet by using some blocks/plates.

Doug said he started with a box of 500 so he's got a few hundred bullets left. Not sure if around $20 + shipping for the .357" bullet sizer kit will be worth it for the OP.

 

[grogetr]

I really appreciate everyones input on this as you discuss it between yourselves. I would never be able to come up with this on my own.
Ok did a little playing today. I made up some rounds with 4.0 and 4.6 gn with oal of1.120 and also shot some of the ones I have t 4.6 at 1.100. I wanted to try what everyone was saying. 10 rounds of each checked barrel after each group and had leading on all. The 4.6 at 1.100 did seem to be a little more. I got a lot of info from John and there is a lot to this you just can't get from a book. I think these bullets are very hard and may be more suited to a smaller barrel.
I will try the samples That Mr. BDS is sending and report back. There are a bunch of great people here to help someone like me that doesn't know anything to find a cure. I hope you all have a merry Christmas. Doug

 

[Sam1911]

Great! Keep your testing as scientific as possible, make good notes, change just one thing at a time, and you'll find the best solution pretty rapidly. Let us all know how each step goes!

I'll bet a softer bullet will really help you out, and of course another 0.001" would be about ideal. Fingers crossed for ya!