Leaded or unleaded?

[Walkalong]

Fouling like that is from gas blow by, undersized bullet or not enough pressure/too hard a bullet to expand it and seal the throats. The hot high pressure gases act like a cutting torch.

 

[BW460]

Walkalong, what you just said is the general consensus in the reloading community. But, I too had issues with some 300 grain coated bullets from MBC. Keep in mind that I ream my cylinders to the correct size for lead. I buy correctly sized bullets and I put an extra carnuba based tumble lube on the lead bullets. With that combination, I have little to no fouling in any of my revolvers, and I have a "few" revolvers. But, I tried the coated bullets when MBC first started offering them. They fouled the barrel of my .45 Colt Redhawk so bad that I ended up tumble lubing them. It worked but defeated the purpose of buying them. I'll stick with my process for lead bullets. They are cheaper and when I follow my process, I almost never get any lead in the barrel.

 

[ballman6711]

Why would a reloader choose to shoot lead? I'm not trying to stir things up...I really don't understand. I don't think that saving $0.04 per round is worth all the cleaning and mess that lead requires.

It could be a variety of different reasons. Maybe a cowboy shooting type of sport where plain lead is required, or it could be cost savings, or numerous other reasons. I prefer jacketed bullets for my reloads, but also shoot coated and lubed lead.

How does everyone feel about lead vs coated vs plated?

I have a load worked up for my 3" 1911 in 45acp with Speer's 185gr TMJ SWC. It's a thick plated bullet that is very accurate in my gun. It's also pricey and hard to find. I use the same load with a 185gr Acme coated SWC that is almost as accurate and much cheaper, and readily available. How do I feel about it? Well, I would rather shoot the more accurate Speer, but price and availability has me shooting mostly the Acme.

I also have loads worked up for my old 357 mag in jacketed and lead using 38spcl cases and data. Both loads are very accurate, but the lead loads are pretty dirty. Granted they are light target loads, and I have no leading from the lead bullets, but after a couple of cylinders the gun is filthy. Again, I would prefer the jacketed loads, but the lead loads are much less expensive.

My final lubed lead load is in a 45 Colt. I haven't spent much time on development, and it's accurate enough in my Vaquero, but it smokes and makes the gun filthy in a few cylinders worth of shooting. But, I must admit that I love the look of the lead bullet for that "old style cowboy" looking gun, and will most likely continue to use lead bullets. FWIW I haven't loaded any coated, plated, or jacketed bullets for this gun.

chris

 

[mdi]

I'm see leading in the pics, and leading at the chamber end usually indicates, as Walkalong mentioned, from too small. too hard bullets (leading nearer the muzzle end normally is the lube "runs out", is not doing it's job)...

FWIW; My cast bullets are as accurate in my guns as any bullet type, and better than some...

 

[TacticalJanitor]

I love the reloading forum. There are a lot of pleasant, non-snarky people here (like you folks), and most everyone seems to be helpful. I sure do appreciate it.

This morning I reloaded a couple-hundred .38s (with 3.5g TG) and plated 158s. We will see how that goes during next week's training session.

As for the hard-cast lead loads that tend to foul the barrel in my J frames...I'm going up to shoot my .44 mag with .44 Specials for the first time today. I happen to have .44 Special from the same company as the problematic (and dirty) .38s. Both calibers are hard-cast/HiTek loads.

I'll get some pictures of the loads, and a picture of just how filthy the .44 gets after 50 rounds. It's kindof impressive.

Stand by!

 

[EricBu]

Split the difference and use Hi-Tek coated bullets. Coated WC's, RNFP, SWC's can all be had at that .11 price point. .15 for a plated bullet retail isn't a bad price though, and if you don't really care about accuracy and the price savings with coated cast, then by all means, enjoy that plated. Personally though, I've never found a plated bullet that will outperform a coated equivalent, and the coated bullets will end your leading problem. Most of the "dirty" you experience with your previous commercial loads using lead WC is most likely a combination of bullet lube and the powder used (lubed bullets produce a good bit of smoke). TG is a clean powder anyway. Shooting plated or Hi-Tek coated bullets both eliminate the bullet lube.

Plus, you're not taking into acount that now that you're loading, and shooting more...you WILL buy another gun (or 5), and since you already shoot 38 SPL, you'll probably end up with a repeater (lever action) in 357/38, and when you start loading for a repeater, you're going to start paying more attention to accuracy and performance...so might as well start working up loads with coated bullets now;-)

 

[mdi]

Jes a hint from a failure of mine; On a new load, just load up a few. One time I loaded a box and a half (75 rounds) and shot 5 then decided I didn't like/trust the load and had to pull 70 rounds. I'm sure there are other members that had similar instances...

 

[Walkalong]

Keep in mind that I ream my cylinders to the correct size for lead. I buy correctly sized bullets

The bullet needs to be .001+ under the throat diameter, a hair more generally won't hurt.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Well, I went to the range for "big-bore" day. A Baer in .45 and a Smith in .44 Special. Only problem was that I didn't remember to get the .44 Special from the shop. Would've sworn that the .44 Special ammo was in the Jeep. It wasn't. That being said, this training session features .44 Mag/240 @ 1190 from the same company.

Here is a picture of the two loads with HiTek coating in question. I don't want to name the company. They have been very nice to deal with, gave me a "high-volume" discount once they noticed the number of rounds I was buying each month, the the ammo is solid. Each round goes bang. Besides, it's not their fault if my J frames are not a good fit for their ammo. I do not think that their ammo has any negative qualities.



Here is a picture of the M69 after 45 rounds of PD drills. I don't think this sort of "mess" is going to kill me, and I'm not saying that the ammo has an issue. I just don't like the mess. If a different type of bullet and/or powder will alleviate this residue when I reload, I'd like to try it. So far, plated bullets solve the issue.









The 1911 didn't make this stuff worse (I shot the 1911 after the M69). Auto pistols have never caused this sort of thing for me.

Pictures as promised. Maybe having dirty hands is just part of shooting revolvers. If so, I'll adapt. Revolvers are awesome!

Edit: the M69 was "clean-as-a-whistle" when I arrived at the range today.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

A side note, today was the first time I've shot an auto pistol since 2022. Picking up that brass was a PITA that I had forgotten about. Not a fan.

 

[ballman6711]

Unfortunately revolvers get dirty like that. I have shot plenty with plenty of different types of ammo, and they all end up like that after enough rounds. Lead bullets get them dirty faster than plated or jacketed, but plated/jacketed will do it too. I also have the same type of crud buildup when shooting coated bullets through my .480, although again not as fast as crud from lead buildup.

Be sure to look at your fired .44 brass and see if there is any soot near the mouth of the case. If so, you are getting some powder blowing back and it will make your gun dirty much quicker. One nice thing about reloading is you can control that to some degree.

And as a final bonus, now that you're set up and reloading .38 special, starting to load for a new caliber is relatively cheap. On your Dillon I think you need a conversion kit and dies and you can make your .44 special/magnum and save a lot of money over factory ammo, and tailor it to your needs/wants as well. On my single stage it's a shell holder and dies, so starting a new caliber can be as little as $30 or $40 dollars.

chris

 

[lordpaxman]

A side note, today was the first time I've shot an auto pistol since 2022. Picking up that brass was a PITA that I had forgotten about. Not a fan.

Especially if you’re not shooting well, it adds insult to injury. Harbor Freight sells mesh tarps, they’re lightweight, don’t blow around too much and help corral the cases. There are other solutions for autos as well.
My revolvers and semis get dirty no matter what I do, I figure it’s just part of the game.

 

[Blue68f100]

It all depends on the powder your using and at what charge. Years ago I was shooting at a indoor range. I was shooting my SS 1911 and Python using WST. The fellow next to me was also shooting a SS 1911 too. I had put 100 rounds through my 1911 and my gun was cleaner than his after 1 magazine. I was shooting a 185gr LSWC from MBC non coated. The guy next to me was shooting jacketed with Unique. WST is a very clean burning powder for using reduced loads. It also runs cooler than most powders too. Since it was designed for low pressure shotgun use, it works well for reduced loads in handgun. The bad thing about it that there is not a lot of data out for it. You have to go back to load books published in 80's to get data most of the time.

 

[Obturation]

I rarely shoot jacketed and the only plated I use is gold dot. I use some copper solids too. 99% of my shooting is cast , coated lead. I prefer hi-tek coating to pc. Lead is the real deal , it takes slightly more effort to ensure size and hardness , coating removes some of those concerns as jacketed bullets do too.
I'll admit to being a bullet snob and when I see a "reloader" using jacketed for target or plinking I just shake my head. Its been years since I've seen any leading at all and I'm not concerned to push a 250 grain .452 bullet to 2000 fps- works fine , no leading. The only gun I own I don't do that with is a marlin 336 and that's only due to the Micro groove barrel. My 45-70 Henry has never seen a factory cartridge and has never shot anything but cast coated lead.
Jacketed bullets leave more fouling than the coated lead bullets honestly , if you're load is efficient and bullet selection is correct your gun will stay very clean.

Most of what you see on a revolver wipes away easily and doesn't change accuracy or reliability . my gp100 gets shot a lot and has been in continuous use since 2013, I clean it about every 6 months but I do wipe it down. That gun only shoots 158 grain swc and 180 wfn bullets, both cast/coated and typically only used with 2400 powder which is old school magnum powder that isn't known for being clean burning. Here's how that gun looks after a few hundred rounds.

Black hands don't bother me and I get the same from jacketed .

For a clean burning powder try clays, almost no soot bit not the best velocity.

Noncoated lead will always be dirty, just the nature of the bullet lube.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Unfortunately revolvers get dirty like that. I have shot plenty with plenty of different types of ammo, and they all end up like that after enough rounds. Lead bullets get them dirty faster than plated or jacketed, but plated/jacketed will do it too. I also have the same type of crud buildup when shooting coated bullets through my .480, although again not as fast as crud from lead buildup.

Be sure to look at your fired .44 brass and see if there is any soot near the mouth of the case. If so, you are getting some powder blowing back and it will make your gun dirty much quicker. One nice thing about reloading is you can control that to some degree.

And as a final bonus, now that you're set up and reloading .38 special, starting to load for a new caliber is relatively cheap. On your Dillon I think you need a conversion kit and dies and you can make your .44 special/magnum and save a lot of money over factory ammo, and tailor it to your needs/wants as well. On my single stage it's a shell holder and dies, so starting a new caliber can be as little as $30 or $40 dollars.

chris

Thanks Sir. I suppose the point of this thread was to figure out if it's normal to get this dirty when shooting revolvers. As stated, if it's normal...that's fine. It will be fun to see if I can find a load to avoid the mess though.

I think my Dillon 750 will be my "production" machine. The next step is to buy two Dillon SDBs, one that is setup for SPP and one for LPP. When I get the urge to shoot anything other then my PD pistols, I can load on the SDBs.

 

[.38 Special]

I cast and load my own, for several reasons. One is cost: using the supply of wheelweights I have had for so long that I really do not remember how I obtained them or what (if anything) they cost, I am essentially getting free bullets. Another is performance: I make exactly the sizes and shapes I need, and the result is deeply gratifying. I do not get significant leading - the slight bore "frost" comes out with a few passes of Chore Boy or 0000 steel wool; far less hassle than removing copper fouling - and the haze of powder mixed with soft lube wipes off the rest of the gun with an oily rag.

Having said that, getting to this point was a process. The guns have to be made dimensionally perfect, and the bullets have to follow. Off-the-shelf guns and ill-fitting "hard cast" commercial bullets just won't do, except by luck - and yes, there is an amount of "smug" in that opinion!

Beyond that, I use and appreciate plated bullets. In fact I use them almost exclusively at indoor ranges, simply so that I don't have to breath the gunk. My results with them usually are excellent, and about the only way they are inferior to cast, if I'm being honest, is that I do find copper fouling more of a chore to remove than is light leading.

Jacketed bullets are much the same. They offer very high performance, relative cleanliness, and are certainly much more forgiving than cast. In fact, the cast bullet "bible" gives away the game right up front: "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets". That is, the best we can hope for is that our cast bullets work as well as jacketed ones. The main problem, of course, is cost - though I will note that, for high volume shooters, jacketed bullets wear the bore much more quickly than lead.

 

[TacticalJanitor]

Especially if you’re not shooting well, it adds insult to injury. Harbor Freight sells mesh tarps, they’re lightweight, don’t blow around too much and help corral the cases. There are other solutions for autos as well.
My revolvers and semis get dirty no matter what I do, I figure it’s just part of the game.

Are you psychic? I couldn't hit a darned thing with the Baer yesterday. I shot similar scores with the .45 as I did with the .44...which is to say, "not good or quick". I'll keep working on it.

Edit: I shot the 69 well...that is to say that I got good hits. But, it's slow. Powerful, but slow. Shooting the .45 was fast, but I wasn't getting good hits. I'm slowly realizing that I don't like to have much weight in front of any pistol. Snubbies and short autos are what I shoot best.

 

[AJC1]

I rarely shoot jacketed and the only plated I use is gold dot. I use some copper solids too. 99% of my shooting is cast , coated lead. I prefer hi-tek coating to pc. Lead is the real deal , it takes slightly more effort to ensure size and hardness , coating removes some of those concerns as jacketed bullets do too.
I'll admit to being a bullet snob and when I see a "reloader" using jacketed for target or plinking I just shake my head. Its been years since I've seen any leading at all and I'm not concerned to push a 250 grain .452 bullet to 2000 fps- works fine , no leading. The only gun I own I don't do that with is a marlin 336 and that's only due to the Micro groove barrel. My 45-70 Henry has never seen a factory cartridge and has never shot anything but cast coated lead.
Jacketed bullets leave more fouling than the coated lead bullets honestly , if you're load is efficient and bullet selection is correct your gun will stay very clean.

Most of what you see on a revolver wipes away easily and doesn't change accuracy or reliability . my gp100 gets shot a lot and has been in continuous use since 2013, I clean it about every 6 months but I do wipe it down. That gun only shoots 158 grain swc and 180 wfn bullets, both cast/coated and typically only used with 2400 powder which is old school magnum powder that isn't known for being clean burning. Here's how that gun looks after a few hundred rounds.
View attachment 1145048
Black hands don't bother me and I get the same from jacketed .

For a clean burning powder try clays, almost no soot bit not the best velocity.

Noncoated lead will always be dirty, just the nature of the bullet lube.

My microgrove is a 1894 so it's not rifle velocities but I give it full power no problem. Maybe I have less issues because I clean so often. I was initially very concerned about micro Grove but my experience wasn't what I was worried about.

 

[Walkalong]

Revolvers spit crud out sideways, it’s just the nature of the beast, but I like my beasties.

Some loads are much cleaner than others, but the auto has the advantage that the vast majority of the crud leaves out the front of the barrel. Pressure is way down when bras is kicked out.

 

[EricBu]

Thanks Sir. I suppose the point of this thread was to figure out if it's normal to get this dirty when shooting revolvers. As stated, if it's normal...that's fine. It will be fun to see if I can find a load to avoid the mess though.

I think my Dillon 750 will be my "production" machine. The next step is to buy two Dillon SDBs, one that is setup for SPP and one for LPP. When I get the urge to shoot anything other then my PD pistols, I can load on the SDBs.

Personally, I think you'd be better off getting a 2nd 750. Nothing wrong with the SDB, other than you'll have to get a 2nd set of dies for everything (SDB takes special dillon dies only), and you won't have the case feeder. I ran 2 750's for many years, still do in fact, generally one was SP an done was LP.

 

[BW460]

Walkalong, maybe I'm missreading what you said:

"The bullet needs to be .001+ under the throat diameter, a hair more generally won't hurt."

The cylinder should be reamed to .001" over the bore diameter and the lead bullet should match the cylinder diameter. So, for example, my .357 magnum barrel does slug to .357. So I ream the cylinders to .358 and buy .358" lead bullets. The bullet is drawn down to .357 when it hits the barrel and forms a tight gas
seal. That, and proper lube, keep it from leading. One other issue some will have with their revolvers, especially some Rugers, is that there is a constriction in the barrel that might need to be fire lapped out. That is another advanced course.

 

[Walkalong]

Typed that backwards, bullet must be at or larger than the throats.

Larger is preferred, and throats must be larger than groove diameter.

 

[41 Mag]

With almost any conventional lubed bullets you are subject to see some smearing or a bit of lead up against the side of the lands. That said here are a couple of pick of two different firearms and distinct no holds barred leading in one and just normal stuff in the other.

This was from only 4 rounds of the wrong alloy at the wrong pressure. It happens and it isn't real good but without testing you do not know. I changed up the alloy a bit and after another work up it looked like the one below, if not better.

Now this is from another revolver with over a hundred plus rounds through it,

You can see some build up inside the leading edge of the lands, but overall this is about as good as it gets for full power plain based conventional lubed cast with that many rounds downrange. It sure didn't effect accuracy and was cleaned up shortly after the pic.

 

[mdi]

Looking at the pics in post #34, I see "blowby" soot on the recoil shield and rear of the cylinder. I cannot remember any of my revolvers showing this soot deposit coming out of the back of the cylinder. Normal is soot on the face of the cylinder. I also see soot on the side of the cylinder, going half way back. Low pressure, case not sealing cylinder chambers?. I wouldn't shoot that ammo either! I cannot say any of my handloads with any bullets are that dirty...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Looking at the pics in post #34, I see "blowby" soot on the recoil shield and rear of the cylinder. I cannot remember any of my revolvers showing this soot deposit coming out of the back of the cylinder. Normal is soot on the face of the cylinder. I also see soot on the side of the cylinder, going half way back. Low pressure, case not sealing cylinder chambers?. I wouldn't shoot that ammo either! I cannot say any of my handloads with any bullets are that dirty...

The only ammo I’ve ever shot that was that dirty is French Gevelot .38Spl. French civilian, not milsurp. I got a case back in the 90’s from Sportsman’s Guide. It was less than a dollar a box. I still have several boxes.