Lee Dies for .45ACP

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Alright . . .

I went and took pictures, but I can't upload them through dialup. Can't even post the whole wording. HOWEVER, I can send them through email, so PM me your address and I'll send them if my word won't work for you.

Using a 200 grain LSWC bullet with a Brinell hardness of 16, measured out, exactly, to .4520 diameter using 2 calipers, I loaded an Amerc 45 ACP case. Yeah, Amerc is thick, but it appears on ranges and that's what us normal folks load for pistol . . . range brass . . . whatever the headstamp.

After seating the bullet with a standard taper crimp, there was a signifant bulge in the case from the bottom of the bullet to the mouth (pic). You could see it with your eyes and feel it with your fingers . . . all the way around the case. continued
 
. . . .

Next I ran it through the Lee Factory Crimp Die. It's a real bastard to get the thing to go through. However, the bulge is gone and a nice shiny section of brass is left where the die came in contact with the brass. This shiny runs from the bottom of the bullet to the mouth where the bulge USED to be. (pic) Nice straight case wall.

I pull out the old kinetic puller . . . wham, wham . . . and measure the bullet diameter. Lo and Behold! . . . that bullet magically shrunk. What was .4520" measured exactly with 2 calipers is now .4425 measured exactly with 2 calipers. One can see how the bullet was squished in the case by looking at the part of the bullet that extended above the mouth . . . their different diameters. (pic) continued
 
. . .

"Well, that's normal for that crappy Amerc brass," one might say. OK, let's resize the same case, but not run it through the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Using a 200 gr LSWC, Brinell 16, .4520" diameter . . . I load. After seating the bullet with standard taper crimp, there's that bulge again. Pull the bullet and measure . . . with 2 calipers . . . damn, must not have used the right amount of pixie dust on this one . . . it only shrunk to .4505". That I can attribute to Amerc thickness, because, in a Winchester case, there's not as much bulge and no decrease in bullet diameter (run only through the standard taper).

The Lee Factory Crimp Die resized, in the case, the diameter of my bullet .0095". It made the case wall straight, but the bullet was resized. Maybe you don't use Amerc and want to know what it does in, say, Remington cases . . . run your own test. fine
 
I think I am starting to believe what you say Walkalong. Too many people use the FCD to hide the real problem on some cases. One thing I don't use my two FCDs for (Factory Crimping Only). If I feel the case being resized by the FCD I start looking for the real problem so it can be solved and corrected. If a .45 ACP case is bulging during seating the bullet you have a problem with the die setting and the FCD just hides your misadjustment, but does not correct the problem...
 
cinteal your word is good enough for me. That's all I was interested in was the experience that went along with the statement. Thanks for sharing that I found it very interesting. Sorry if you got the impression I was calling you a liar. No hard feelings I hope.
I think I am starting to believe what you say Walkalong. Too many people use the FCD to hide the real problem on some cases.
Click to expand...
I have agreed with that since the beginning. I have posted on many forums that the FCD shouldn't be used as a fixall. I guess I have been lucky. I use a FCD for every caliber I load for because I don't like to seat and crimp at the same time. In thousands of rounds loading plated, FMJ and lead I have only felt the post sizing ring come into play two times and they were both FMJ bullets.
Rusty
 
OK--Now I tried what cinteal did. I pulled one of my loaded rounds that had been FCD'ed. This bullet started out as a 452 before being loaded. Mic'ed it after pulling and it was .449 so yes it was squashed by .003 this is only .oo15 per side if a round object has 2 sides (Humor).

Now Itook this same bullet and slugged the Ed Brown barrel in question. Of course the rifling engaged BUT the MAJOR dia (in other words the lands) did not. Not good.

Next question is if I attempt to go back to the crimp/seating die and continue to put more crimp on the case will not my headspace continue to shorten as 45 ACP headspaces in the case mouth.

Come on I may learn something yet, I old and stubborn but not stupid.
 
Well at this point I've pulled 20 rounds apart and am going to reload them without using the FCD once again. I have always crimped my pistol brass using the crimping/seating die. Very lightly.

I did make up a couple of dummie rds. to see if they would chamber in this particular pistol, remember my other 45's do not cause any problem. Anyway they did, now this was from loading them in the mag. and racking the slide by hand.

Now the question is should I not crimp at all using the crimp/seating die. Or if I do put a crimp on the case with the crimp/seating die will not this shorted the case as far as headspace goes.

All in all this maybe one of those occasions where I can't see the forest for the trees.
 
One other bit of info I'm using a Lee cast bullet #452-228-1R which is a round nose at 228 grain sized to .452. Overall length of a loaded round is 1.200, if I load any longer the radius of th bullet contacts the rifling.
 
Sorry if you got the impression I was calling you a liar. No hard feelings I hope.
Click to expand...

Rusty, I didn't take it that way. Just that FCD has come up on 3 differrent threads and I wanted to post something definitive. Still, over the last couple of hours I've been taking more pics to illustrate . . . They are definitive.:cool: I'll post them as soon as I get somewhere I don't have just dialup.
 
JC, hope your not still hanging :)

Well at this point I've pulled 20 rounds apart
Click to expand...

Stop it! The 45 ACP headspaces on the mouth, but it ain't super critical. When does a revolver engage the rifling? I get good results with a taper crimp of .469 using lead in my Wilson and Kimber match barrels. I wouldn't go much tighter than that. Copper, not much crimp at all. No crimp and you run the risk of the round not feeding (even though yours did). However, provided that you don't have really messed up bullets, as long as your don't have any space between where you belled the mouth and the bullet, you should be fine. See RC's post on the old GI stuff, no crimp. The baseline on pistols is, if it goes bang and hits where you want it to, you're good. Still, in general, lead is a little slicker than copper, so you might want to crimp it a little just to make the most of case pressure.

How does that grab ya? . . . like a hairy hand in the dark? :eek:
 
People,people, people, please read my posts on the .45 cal and crimp.
This is going way beyond the realm of insanity.
Common sense is a virtue one must posess in this situation.
If you crimp beyond .471 you are in reallity squeezing the bullet to death, period, and you can look for your accuracy in the toilet, cause that is where it will be.
Just my opinion.
 
OK we're going to give this one more try.

Maybe I'll walk into that tree in the proverbial woods.

One thing I do not want to run into is a situation where the bullet can slide back into the case upon loading into the chamber thus causing extremially high pressure.
 
And there it is, just listen to floydster. Crimp only to .471 like he does it and all you groups will . . .well, there won't be a group, just one hole.

Ignore what you've heard from experts like Bill Wilson, who crafts and shoots the best 1911s in the world. He crimps to .469 and publishes that in his various books on the 45 ACP and 1911. Never mind that, as rcmodel posted, GI national match ammo was crimped to as tight as .469, as well. They're idiots. :banghead:

.471 is great, if that works in your particular gun, .469 might work better . . . might not . . . but don't go with the delusion that there's only one way and other people's experience and "common sense" is bunk.
 
JC, you'd have to crimp the hell out of it and have longer than SAAMI OAL so that the slide rammed it in there to push the bullet back into the case.
 
cinteal,
Be nice to me , I'm still learning, ah but I wonder what the bore dia. of Bill Wilson's guns were, maybe a little on the tight side?
I'm talking about your run of the mill 1911 and the proper crimp for these guns.
Peace,Floydster
 
The crimp is only affecting a small portion of the front of the bullet. It is not going to ruin accuracy unless you get seriously carried away, and then the headspace could be an issue. The extractor would be the only thing holding the round back, well, that and the rifling.

Anyway, a normal crimp is not going to hurt the bullet.

Now the FCD, that is another story, but it is not the crimp part that can cause a problem. It crimps like any other crimp only or seater/crimp dies, including Lee's.

The problem is when the post sizing ring squeezes the bullet down for its entire length, which can happen if it is seated crooked or if the carbide ring is undersized, as I believe many are. Then you get what cinteal posted about.

And actually, as long as there is still enough neck tension, it probably won't hurt then. It contacts the rifling very soon, unlike a revolver, and gets good start pressure, bumping the bullet up to fill the bore, unless it is very hard, as some cast bullets are. If it does not, leading and bad accuracy will be the result.

The problem is if it post sizes enough to ruin neck tension, then it could be hazardous if the bullet were to be pushed back into the case, but that is also overblown in my opinion, at least in the low pressure .45 ACP.

Sample 1 You can clearly see the crimp on the round on the right.

Sample 2 Another angle.

Sample 3 Yet another angle.

I loaded these a couple of months ago when I loaded 2000 rounds to hold me for awhile. The first 1000.
 
Alright, I just got off the phone with one of my friends that reloads a whole bunch more than I do. His answers were the same as what I just read here so we're going to take these pulled down rounds and reload them as you'all have explained to me and we're going to try again.

Will take them to the range in the next couple of days and see.

Hope running into that tree doesn't hurt to much.
 
OK bear with me, I just had a couple of disk's removed from my neck and some steel plates and screws put in and the drugs are good.:D I was wondering if anybody made a couple of identical rounds, one with the FCD and one crimping with the seater same OAL and crimp. Pull both bullets and measure to see if both bullets are the same below the crimp. Is there a chance the inside of the neck measures .448 and the bullet is being sized as it is being pounded out? My wife is working out of town and I am recovering in the Hotel with her and won't be home to experiment until the weekend.
Rusty
 
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