~Lee Enfield~

[goon]

I can't testify to the truth behind the claim that the Enfield gets more accurate past 100 yards, but I have also read and heard the same thing.
Sometimes repeated in gun stores, but sometimes from some pretty knowledgeable shooters.

Just because it doesn't seem to make sense doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

[Curator]

The story of the Lee Enfield being more accurate at 3-400 yards than it is at 100 yards has a kernal of truth. The Mk7 174 grain boat-tail bullet would not "settle down" gyroscopically until a bit past 100 yards. 100 yard groups were often as large (2-2 1/2") as 200 yard groups. Flat base bullets did not exhibit this characteristic. The "wisdom" of the arm-chair ballisticians was that the rear locking-lugs of the Lee Enfield design allowed the action to "flex" and compensated for barrel harmonics.

The truth is the Lee Enfield bolt does compress a few microns more than a comparable Springfield '03 or M98 Mauser with front lugs, but it is barely measurable and does nothing for barrel harmonics. Accurate Lee Enfields are accurate at all ranges with good ammunition. Having shot Lee Enfields (No4Mk1*s and Mk2s) and Springfield 03s at ranges up to and including 1000 yards, I have concluded it is the shooter and the ammunition that wins matches as the rifles are pretty much equal.

 

[MJ]

What ever you think. Sounds like you had your answer before you asked the question. Pointless to answer if you have closed your mind to comment.

..Cheers..

 

[littlecleo]

Several of my No 4's group better at 200 yards than they do at 100 yards. I was puzzled, but found that it was no secret to British/Canadian armourers.

 

[GBExpat]

Not in response to any one person ...

The flight of the bullets is ballistic, so if at 25 or 50 or 100 yards the rifle proves to be capable of a consistent 2MOA with the ammunition in question, achieving "gyroscopic stability" beyond that range will not produce a consistently better-than-2MOA result downrange ... because the flight of the bullets is ballistic in nature.

Assume the "delayed gyroscopic stability" concept to be accurate and the range where bullet stability is achieved is, say, 101yards. Let's say that you fire a 4-shot 2" group at a 100yd-distant target that perfectly brackets dead-center, one hole at each of 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock. For this rifle to be more accurate beyond the "gyroscopic stability point", a yard after passing thru the target, the 12 bullet will always have to stabilize and alter its trajectory path to one a tad bit lower, the 6 bullet a bit higher, the 3 a bit to the left and the 9 a bit to the right.

If you place a taut piece of saran wrap in a frame at one of the "bullet-not-yet-settled-down" ranges and then fire thru that saran wrap at a target farther downrange, the consistent results downrange can be no better than the results reflected on the saran wrap ... unless, the bullets you are firing have tiny guidance systems that can somehow alter the course in-flight to a preprogrammed AP ... or if they are magic bullets.

O'course, some folks believe that if you fire your rifle straight up in the air, the bullet will return to earth at the same speed ... but that is a slightly different silliness ... <shrug & smile>

 

[GBExpat]

... Sounds like you had your answer before you asked the question. Pointless to answer if you have closed your mind to comment.

Talking to yourself, also, I see.

Best regards ...

 

[9mmepiphany]

capable of a consistent 2MOA with the ammunition in question, achieving "gyroscopic stability" beyond that range will not produce a consistently better-than-2MOA result downrange

...but wouldn't you consider a rifle shooting a 2" group at 200 yards more accurate than one shooting that group at 100 yards?

 

[308sc]

ok so get a no.4 MK1 thanks guys! Gun shows or internet for these?

 

[Limeyfellow]

You can't go wrong with a decent No4 Mk1. Even if the No1 Mk3 Enfields have nice pointy bayonets. They are fast, accurate and tough as can be, and it is hard to find a rifle that can be so easily upgraded in the field and fixed.

 

[MJ]

If your worried about the whip get an HB.

Some times you get luck at shows.

The auction boards are insane.

..MJ..

 

[GBExpat]

capable of a consistent 2MOA with the ammunition in question, achieving "gyroscopic stability" beyond that range will not produce a consistently better-than-2MOA result downrange

...but wouldn't you consider a rifle shooting a 2" group at 200 yards more accurate than one shooting that group at 100 yards?

Of course, but that 2" group you shoot at 200yds was a 1" group as it passed thru 100yds ... it did not pass thru 100yds at 1¾" and then magically "tighten up" prior to arriving at 200yds.

 

[goon]

The other side of it is, why would these guys lie about their gun shooting a mediocre group at 100 yards?
I've seen guys lie about a gun shooting good groups when the groups are only so-so, but to lie and make your rifle sound less accurate than it is...
I know this is the internet so believing anything you read is not always the best decsion.
Still, why question it so much?
The guys are saying their guns shoot the same size groups at 100 and 200 yards. I'll take them at their word.


Other Enfield trivia - I read once when I was a kid that the original SMLE's rifling actually gets slightly tighter as it goes toward the bore.
The story is that the riflings were allowed to be a little "looser" at the rear of the bore so the bullet would initially gain speed faster and get the desired muzzle velocity. Somewhere near the middle of the barrel the rifling supposedly got just a little tighter to better stabilize the bullet.
Maybe true, maybe not, but it's an interesting part of the Enfield lore.

 

[Limeyfellow]

Now I will be forever eternally jealous of MJ. Alas I want an L42a1 but it is way out of my price range.

 

[SMLE]

Goon;
The "progressive depth" rifling was used on the 1853 Enfield Rifle Musket, not the Lee Enfield.

 

[9mmepiphany]

it did not pass thru 100yds at 1¾" and then magically "tighten up" prior to arriving at 200yds.

i think that is exactly what we are talking about

 

[GBExpat]

it did not pass thru 100yds at 1¾" and then magically "tighten up" prior to arriving at 200yds.

i think that is exactly what we are talking about

Correct ... and, as I have explained, that is patently impossible.

 

[9mmepiphany]

OK...if you say so

they say bumble bees can't fly either

 

[GBExpat]

<shaking my head>

 

[zinj]

OK...if you say so

they say bumble bees can't fly either

That "kernel" came about because the equation that was used to calculate lift was incomplete.

 

[mnw42]

Nice L42A1! My No.4 is a bit more mundane....

 

[GBExpat]

A bit more mundane, perhaps, but very a very nice-looking Nº4!

... If you could only have one of the Lee Enfield rifle variations which would it be and why? ...

If restricted to just one I would like it to be a Nº1 ... but my presbyopia would force me to get my second choice, a Nº4 with its aperture sight because I shoot all of the firearms that I own.

Unfortunately, I never found a nice Nº1 for the right price when they were more readily available a few years ago. I currently have 10 Nº4s, 1 Nº5 and 2 2As and, along with the Nº1, would like to find a nice Pattern14 with its volley sights intact.

I am glad that I stocked up quite a bit on .303 ammo several years ago when it was available and for a decent price.

 

[MJ]

Correct ... and, as I have explained, that is patently impossible.

If you say so,,
Looking out the window and rolling my eyes to the sea.


Thanks for the hi ho on the L42 and yes I shoot it.



Cheers
..MJ..

 

[GBExpat]

Most folks are capable of understanding the straightforward logic while a few, apparently, are not. <shrug>

I think that people believing the Silliness about groups "tightening up" after the bullets have traveled farther downrange has a lot to do with phrases like "the LE really comes into its own at longer ranges" which suggests to me that the Mk7s are, perhaps, a bit more stable and less effected by wind than some othercomparable rifles.

Rather than reading it as something as silly as groups tightening up downrange, it should be read as groups are more consistently resistant to spreading due to air movement.

 

[OFT]

Maybe that's the problem with my shooting. I've been too close to the target all this time.

 

[Sunray]

"...so get a no.4 MK1..." Yep. A No. 4 Mk I* will do nicely too. Whichever one you opt for(start at your local gun shop), always have the headspace checked before you shoot it. Preferably get proof of good headspace before you buy. Thousands have been assembled out of parts bins with zero QC. Fixing bad headspace is easier and less expensive with a No. 4 than it is with a No. 1. A No. 4 bolt head has a number(0 to 3) stamped on it to indicate a slightly larger bolt head. No. 1 bolt heads do not.
The No. 4 and No. 1 use a slightly different non-interchangeable mag too. A No. 1 mag has two locking lugs on the back. A No. 4 mag has one.
The other thing about Lee-Enfields is that the barrel can measure from .311" to .315", groove to groove, and still be considered ok. Larger than .315" the barrel is shot out. Slug the bore by hammering a cast .30 calibre bullet through the barrel from the chamber end using a brass rod and a plastic mallet, then measure the bullet with a micrometer. Then use the closest bullet diameter. Most commercial ammo and bullet manufacturers use a .312" bullet. If the barrel is bigger, there are .313" and .314" 200 grain bullets available from Steve at www.303british.com. There's load data and a whole bunch of other info there as well.