Lee factory crimp die shaving brass?

[Typetwelve]

*SUPER EDIT: See post #16 below for solution*

Quick data.

-This is concerning 44 magnum with Hi-Tek coated lead projectiles

-Previous to this, I had ONLY reloaded on a Dillon 550 with Dillon dies.

-I bought the Lee carbide pistol set to pull my magnum loaded to my single stage, special loading on the Dillon.

-All the dies work perfectly, but the factory crimp die is, well, weird.

The dillon die is smooth, you press the round in, it comes out crimped. It "feels" like a seating die, not catching, no popping. The Lee die almost has a "catch" to it where the round will hit some serious force-back, you have to press through that with a bit of a "pop", the you get to the actual crimp at the end of the stroke.

Doing some reading, this is normal because the Lee die resized the brass as well? All I know is the process feels odd and there are times when the bullet will come out with a small shaving of brass just sitting there. Loading lead projectiles, the brass is definitely from the case, not the projectile.

Lastly, I use a very light case flare before seating...and I do mean light, so its not that I have a wide case flare sticking out.

Doing some reading, it seems that this may be a bad choice for reloading lead projectiles...thoughts?

*EDIT*

I should stat that by "pop" I don't mean a sound, I mean a feedback from the press. It goes in, hits a wall, I have to press hard, it will "Pop" through the catch, then I can then complete the stroke smoothly.

 

[rfwobbly]

The Lee Factory Crimp Die seems to be the only subject to polarize users on par with the national political debate. So let me try to help without upsetting anyone...
• There are extra setup adjustments needed for the FCD. This because the die does a lot more than simply roll crimping the case. So you must read the FCD instructions and realize that Lee is notorious for making adjustments sound easier (not requiring as much finesse) than actual.

• Yes, unless those adjustments are carefully done, one of the extra 'features' can be resizing lead bullets.

• Case flare is one of the die adjustments you need to make when you swap bullets. Lead bullets require more belling than jacketed.

Summary: You'd do well to 1) check the belling. Seat several coated bullets and then extract them. Inspect the bullet coating for damage. And too, 2) measure the finished, seated diameter, making sure it wasn't reduced in the process..

Trust, but verify.

 

[68Dave]

Lol, apparently you frequent same sites as me.
I think you are feeling that carbide sizer ring. The advice above is sound.
David

 

[LiveLife]

FCD for semi-auto pistol cases that apply TAPER CRIMP is different from FCD for rimmed revolver cases that apply ROLL CRIMP.

Here's a good sticky thread on FCD for roll crimping - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/how-much-crimp-lee-fcd-guidance-sought.469815/

 

[Typetwelve]

I've been doing some digging on this one...yeah, the sizing ring + lead bullets seems to be the no go.

I think I'm going to KO that sizing ring out of it. If I mess up and ruin the die, oh well, it's no good to me as-is. I'll buy a $15 replacement. Before that, might as well try to work with what I already have.

 

[LiveLife]

44 magnum ... I've been doing some digging ... I think I'm going to KO that sizing ring out of it.

If you read people knocking out carbide sizer ring from FCD, that's for semi-auto calibers that apply taper crimp. So people end up using FCD as a regular taper crimp die without post-sizing.

Have you considered just getting a regular roll crimp die?

 

[Typetwelve]

If you read people knocking out carbide sizer ring from FCD, that's for semi-auto calibers that apply taper crimp. So people end up using FCD as a regular taper crimp die without post-sizing.

Have you considered just getting a regular roll crimp die?

I did indeed read through that thread, and there's lots of good info on there about crimping...but not a ton about the Lee die itself and what to do with it under-sizing lead projectiles.

I think what I'm going to do is to do some measuring. I want to see what my Dillon setup is doing, if anything to the projectiles, and what those Lee dies are doing.

I'm already fighting a TON of leading issues with 44 lead projectiles in 44 magnum loads, enough that I'm about to give up on most of them (actually, I am, I just want to get rid of the 800 or so projectiles I have already, I'm too cheap to just chuck them out). The last thing is need is a stupid die making them even smaller.

 

[jmorris]

-I bought the Lee carbide pistol set to pull my magnum loaded to my single stage, special loading on the Dillon.

I don’t know what that means. Are you still using the 550 or a single stage?

 

[AJC1]

I did indeed read through that thread, and there's lots of good info on there about crimping...but not a ton about the Lee die itself and what to do with it under-sizing lead projectiles.

I think what I'm going to do is to do some measuring. I want to see what my Dillon setup is doing, if anything to the projectiles, and what those Lee dies are doing.

I'm already fighting a TON of leading issues with 44 lead projectiles in 44 magnum loads, enough that I'm about to give up on most of them (actually, I am, I just want to get rid of the 800 or so projectiles I have already, I'm too cheap to just chuck them out). The last thing is need is a stupid die making them even smaller.

I'm not following the ideal if you wont get rid of some Lead bullets because you're cheap you will ruin a die to reload lead bullets

 

[Typetwelve]

I don’t know what that means. Are you still using the 550 or a single stage?

I'm sorry if that was confusing.

I have been loading all 44 on my 550 with Dillon dies, no issues. I despise adjusting the dies back/forth between magnum and special loading, especially the powder stage.

Recently, I bought a rockchucker and thought "hey, why don't I just set the 550 up for spcl only as I load a lot of them, and buy a single stage die set for magnum loading."

I resize/prime everything on the 550, put aside magnum brass and finish the seating/crimping on the single using Lee dies. The seating die is a-ok, my issue is with the funky "factory" crimp die re-sizing the bullet and the lead projectile.

 

[jmorris]

I have been loading all 44 on my 550 with Dillon dies, no issues. I despise adjusting the dies back/forth between magnum and special loading, especially the powder stage.

I understand that, there are a few ways one can address that.

Some people use shims between the lock ring and tool head to change the height, obviously set for Spl with shim for added height for mag case.

Some use witness marks to adjust between two different points.

I built a simple fixture to adjust any dies relative position accurately.



Then there are also some clever ones for the Dillon’s specifically, where they machine the tool head and use a shim, either under or above, in order to compensate for the height difference.

This isn’t the one I remember but the concept.

https://www.reloader-rob.com/adjustable-toolhead-kit-for-dillon-550b-reloader/

Obvious once you see it being used.

 

[rfwobbly]

I did indeed read through that thread, and there's lots of good info on there about crimping... but not a ton about the Lee die itself and what to do with it under-sizing lead projectiles.

► Be careful here: Lee makes a full selection of "crimp dies". You need to be very specific, although I believe the FCD is implied.

► If you are concerned about bullet re-sizing during crimping, then you need to revert back to a basic roll crimp die for your cartridge. Often times, this is nothing more than a Seating Die with the central seating anvil completely removed.

 

[film495]

I roll crimped 38 Special with an RCBS roll crimp die and it shaved a little thread of brass around the mouth of the case, looked like a little thread. My guess is the very tiny outer edge/corner of the flared case just rolls over and peels off when crimping. I could probably just chamfer the belled case mouth a touch and it would not doo that - haven't done any more cases since then to see for sure if that works.

 

[RealGun]

I don't think some reloaders get that regular dies are not for lead bullets that are larger than intended for the dies. That hitch in the die action is because the bullet and case thickness are too big for the die. An FCD should be used only for plated or jacketed diameters. All my lead bullet heartaches went away when I switched to every RCBS Cowboy set available for what I reload. At a minimum, some other brand of crimp die would suffice because you can regulate the crimp without the bullet binding going in. You can also crimp with the seating die in one operation. The FCD is handy though, when you have rounds that don't pass a gauge or a gun's chamber. Better to compromise a few bullets than all of them. You do have a gauging step though.

 

[Tilos]

I roll crimped 38 Special with an RCBS roll crimp die and it shaved a little thread of brass around the mouth of the case, looked like a little thread. My guess is the very tiny outer edge/corner of the flared case just rolls over and peels off when crimping. I could probably just chamfer the belled case mouth a touch and it would not doo that - haven't done any more cases since then to see for sure if that works.

Good guess...

This is common on once fired/previously factory loaded cases.
The last operation of mfg'ing brass is an aggressive tumbling with stone media that peens a bur over the case edge.

This bur breaks off during the crimp operation when reloading.
There's a bur on the inside too but it's busted off by the expander and usually ends up inside the case with the powder.
You can remove these burs prior to reloading, no need to flare the case 1st.
just more useless info, sorry for the bloviation,

 

[Typetwelve]

Got it...and it took me some time to figure it out...and it may be a cause of some other leading issues I've been having.

Most of my 44 magnum brass is Fiocchi stamped "G.F.L or GFL". After some back/forth and measuring...brass like Hornady and Winchester is .010" thick, Fiocchi is .011" thick. I found this across the board when measuring a ton of them. Figuring that almost all of my brass is Fiocchi, this was my issue with not only the Lee FC die, but with some leading.

The Missouri 44 Keith Hi-Tek almost uniformly coming in at .430", seat them in Fiocchi brass, the Lee die give some serious feedback and sometimes shaves lead. Pulling the projectile, it is also squeezing the bullet to .429" and on rare occasion, .428". This is why I've been fighting leading issues with those.

I bought some new Hornady and Win brass, seated them, the ran perfectly through the Lee die and when I pulled the bullets, they maintained their .430". Running 12 of them yesterday, no leading.

I can't believe it...it wasn't the die, it wasn't the projectile...it was the brass.

 

[Walkalong]

Did you chamfer/deburr the Fiocchi and try?

 

[FROGO207]

So glad you stuck it out and found the actual problem then took the time to teach others.
I have seen this thicker brass on brands like Starline and PPU as well. It makes the brass tougher but can induce other problems. You can use the thicker brass with jacketed bullets as those problems are not happening due to the smaller diameter and lack of exposed lead to flame cut.

 

[Typetwelve]

Did you chamfer/deburr the Fiocchi and try?

I do that to all my brass. It's the thickness all the way down that causing the issue and compressing the projectile.

So glad you stuck it out and found the actual problem then took the time to teach others.
I have seen this thicker brass on brands like Starline and PPU as well. It makes the brass tougher but can induce other problems. You can use the thicker brass with jacketed bullets as those problems are not happening due to the smaller diameter and lack of exposed lead to flame cut.

Exactly...and I'm so relieved that I finally figured this one out. I have been fighting this for a good 8 months now.

I'm going to do just that with the 250 or so Fiocchi brass that I have, use them for FMJ loading. The thicker brass will stand up to the beating my hot loads make.

 

[LiveLife]

*SUPER EDIT: See post #16 below for solution* ... I can't believe it...it wasn't the die, it wasn't the projectile...it was the brass.

So I wonder what thousands of reloaders have done and are doing to address this issue without the Lee FCD ...

 

[Blue68f100]

I will never know since I don't own any. Learned to handload before the internet. Back then you had to learn how to setup your dies properly to get a good round. Had no mentor or any one else to help me. So books and school of hard knocks were the only options.

 

[Typetwelve]

It was probably just dumb luck...or maybe not, I don't really know.

When I started reloading early last year, I played it safe and on solid equipment and started with 38 and 44 special. I followed listed rules, did lots of reading, took my time, and I had zero issues.

With that said, moving on to 9mm and .223...I have zero issues with those either.

It was the whole 44 mag w lead projectiles thing that I hit the wall on. Even hot FMJ magnum loads have been perfectly fine.

Then came the Lee die issue last week.

Before this, brass thickness was never an issue...or at least not that I knew of. I can't recall reading anything about it anywhere online either.

I guess I need to dig deeper into some manuals/books...

 

[Tilos]

OK wow, this went from brass shaving to bullet swaging...
What'd I miss

 

[Typetwelve]

OK wow, this went from brass shaving to bullet swaging...
What'd I miss

I think that the thicker brass combined with a .430" projectile, combined with a very slight flare before seating was creating the perfect combo for that Lee crimping die to shave off a small but of brass from the case mouth when I had to shove it through the resizing portion.