Legal duty to retreat vs Moral duty to retreat

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I have a moral objection of letting a evil person choose future victims based on my choice/ability to retreat.
While I don't agree on a preemptive first strike. I do think its my responsibility to take care of problems when I legally can.
To do less would be dishonorable and only contribute to a on going dangerous situation in my neighborhood.
 
In a SD situation, a person's moral and ethical duty to society is met by performing his legal duty. His moral and ethical duty to himself and his family is no ones business but his own.

QUESTION: Is one justified in the use of deadly force in self defense when in imminent fear of death or serious injury from an attack in which the attacker does not intend death or serious injury and his attack would not produce fear of such in a normal responsible human being? A specific example might be victim who is a hemopheliac, or has a another non apparent medical condition (such as an aneurysm) such that what would normally be minor physical trauma could well be fatal, and the attacker would have no way of knowing the victim's medical condition.

What would be the legal, moral, and ethical requirements of the victim?
 
reasonable fear of death/great bodily harm is based on the individual's perspective. As long as the person being attacked knows they're a hemophiliac, and relatively minor damage could be fatal, I'd say it would put them in reasonable fear for their life.
 
I'm in Louisiana and have dealt a bit with such issues, though the vast majority have not included homicides wherein self defense was asserted as a defense. The question when self defense is asserted is whether the criminal action was justified. In fact, the finder of fact (whether judge or jury) is forbidden to consider whether an opportunity for retreat existed.

Keep in mind that shooting someone, committing a battery upon another, etc. is considered to be criminal behavior, but is excused by the law when the action is justified (committed in self defense).

I don't mean to make this an ultra long post, but just as a reference, these are the Louisiana Statutes regarding acting in the defense of one self or others.

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So...in my neck of the woods, I am under no legal obligation to retreat. Morally? I don't know how most people feel. I know that I got into an altercation many years ago with three teen agers. They were armed. I was armed. I knew they were coming for me, but when it came time to shoot I hesitated. To me, they were kids. Once they actually started shooting my apprehension left me.

I'll put it in these terms. I really don't think that I'm morally obligated to risk my own life to give a bad guy the chance at a life longer than mine.

Sorry this was so long.
 
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But does he have a moral/ethical duty to do so? I postulate that the responsible armed citizen does.
I can't dictate someone else's morals, but ethically I'd say that the citizen has the responsibility to do whatever will bring him or her through an encounter with the greatest chance of survival -- while causing the least damage to his/her own life and family.

That means avoid shooting anyone, ever, at almost any cost. The only "costs" not worth paying to avoid this are death, grievous injury, and perhaps one or two other very serious felonies.

On this principle are based the laws that govern self-defense in almost all locations -- whether there's a codified "stand your ground" or "castle doctrine" in that jurisdiction or not.

SYG/CD only changes how the prosecution of the case goes after the fact. It does NOTHING to alter the use of force in the moment.

...

Let's turn this around. Does a criminal have the authority to FORCE you, through threats or intimidation, to leave some any place where you have a legal right to be?
In other words, should disobeying an illegal order made by a criminal be a crime?
That's not really a legitimate corollary question -- this and "SYG" are not two sides of the same coin, so to speak. The criminal has no authority to force you to do anything -- just as you have no authority to force HIM to do anything. However, lawful self-defense has nothing to do with protecting your right to go somewhere or be somewhere you want to be. Its sole function is in preventing death or grievous injury in the instant.

There are a great many things we may have the right to do, but which we can surmise will end badly for us and which can reasonably be expected to lead toward a negative end (like bloodshead) rather than away from it. Having the RIGHT to do something is not the same thing as being free from repurcussion/responsibility for the effects and results of your actions and decisions. If you contribute to the escalation of a situation that ends in a death, and you could have done anything to avoid, de-escalate, and escape, you carry some of the fault. This can and does become a factor in self-defense prosecutions.

This is part of what we mean when we say, "Never go anywhere armed that you wouldn't have gone UNarmed." "SYG" laws are not -- at all -- to protect your right to be somewhere or to allow you to resist being forced to leave a dangerous situation. They merely help to shield you from legal risk if you are forced to injure or kill someone when you had NO CHOICE but to do so. If you have the ability to leave, then the decision to shoot has not been forced upon you, yet.

...

Morally, we can argue whether we
a) have a duty to "remove" a criminal from society from by stopping him (including by use of lethal force) even when we have the option of escaping (retreating) in complete safety;

While I don't agree on a preemptive first strike. I do think its my responsibility to take care of problems when I legally can.
To do less would be dishonorable and only contribute to a on going dangerous situation in my neighborhood.

Let's reiterate one absolutely essential point: You have NO duty or legal authority to use lethal force to "take care of problems" or "remove a criminal." That is NOT your right under self-defense law, including the "SYG/CD" versions. You may ONLY shoot/injure/kill when you have NO OTHER CHOICE and you will DIE, right this moment, if you do not.
 
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Well then by continuation you would have a moral duty to not physically defend your self in a fist fight
Yes--if you could retreat in complete safety and were reasonably sure the fist-fight would result in death. Apples to apples.
I don't believe that there is a moral or ethical duty to retreat - That's a denial of one's right to self defense
Just so we understand what we're talking about: you're in you car, about to pull out of a parking lot into an empty, clear-sailing road, when a guy from 20 ft away shouts: "I'm gonna kill you with my knife!" You could just drive away in complete safety, but you decide to shoot him instead (or, better yet, drive over him).

If you don't do that, you've denied your right to SD?

Or: guy at a bar says, "If you don't leave in the next minute, I'm going to kill you." Instead of leaving, you wait out the minute, and then when he starts toward you, you shoot him. That's the moral duty or right you feel you have?
What would be the legal, moral, and ethical requirements of the victim?
A warning. Guy comes toward you (suppose you've been told by your doctor that a blow to your head will be fatal for some reason--why you're not going around in a football helmet, I'm not sure, but anyway) and says, "I'm gonna sock you right in the mouth." Pull your gun and say, "Then I'm gonna shoot you." Or say nothing: the drawn gun is a warning in itself.

And explain the situation when the police arrive--that's also part of your duty, IMHO.
 
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the Castle doctrine is not about morality, or legislating morality. It is about protection from over-zealous prosecutors and civil suits.

If you feel a morale obligation to leave the scene, you have to make that decision on your own. Can't ask the government to tell you what your morale grounds are.
 
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Even with no duty to retreat, I will if given the opportunity and can do so without placing myself in greater danger. I'm old, and I have a bad back. My knees aren't what they used to be, either. There was a time that I could do a 9.8 hundred-yard dash, but that was long ago in a galaxy far away. I'm not going to turn my back on a young, agile male who can be on top of me...from behind...before I could make it much beyond 30 feet.

I also have blown rotator cuffs, so I'm not about to stand and slug it out with a street fighter half my age. Again...there was a time, but that was then.

A man's gotta know his limitations.

My philosophy is like that line in a John Wayne movie. Black actor. Roscoe...somebody.

"If you will let me go in peace, I will let you go in peace."
 
Just so we understand what we're talking about: you're in you car, about to pull out of a parking lot into an empty, clear-sailing road, when a guy from 20 ft away shouts: "I'm gonna kill you with my knife!" You could just drive away in complete safety, but you decide to shoot him instead (or, better yet, drive over him).

If you don't do that, you've denied your right to SD?

Or: guy at a bar says, "If you don't leave in the next minute, I'm going to kill you." Instead of leaving, you wait out the minute, and then when he starts toward you, you shoot him. That's the moral duty or right you feel you have?
STELLAR examples, Loosedhorse.

Some, and probably most, folks out in the general population will look at the SYG laws and read the "no duty to retreat" clauses as saying that they would be right to sit still and allow the situation to unfold and try and kill the antagonist. And that's reading ENTIRELY the wrong message.

(Another great example of how reading black-letter law can get folks really, really mixed up!)

The SYG clauses are attempts to limit the burden of proof required from the defendant (the self-defense claimant) if the case goes to trial. They are NOT carte blanche to (literally) "stand your ground" when danger threatens.
 
If it's just me and the guy with the (insert your favorite) lethal weapon, I feel that backing down (note, NOT turning around and running) is my best option - probably with drawn equalizer, at least until he escalates. However, if the threat(s) have already turned to using deadly force (say active shooting event), I have a duty to those being harmed to use lethal force to end the threat. If I flee from an active shooter when I have a loaded functional firearm, I feel that I would be culpable in their wounds through my negligence. Would I be convicted in court, no, but I would probably never be able to sleep again.

Being in an SYG and Castle state, I know how this would work in the criminal courts here for me. I'm not so sure how it would play out across the river in Ohio if I dropped the guy shooting up a store I'd just walked into. The libs over there even make it criminal to disobey a private property owner's "victim disarmament zone" sign.
 
Good discussion here.

Here's a bit more to think about and discuss: "There are no morals or ethics in a street fight. The object is to survive." Stand your ground says we have no duty to retreat. But the wise man, if able to and if possible, is better off retreating even though he has no duty to do so. I agree with the comment that the Stand Your Ground law is more about protecting the innocent from overzealous prosecution. Your duty is self defense. But self defense is a fluid situation, depending on the circumstance of the moment.

Life is sometimes messy and not simple. The best one can do, perhaps, is to not put oneself in harms way. But if found in harms way, one will have the means and intellect to be able to extricate oneself in the best way possible, and protected by the law that supports the innocent over the corrupt.
 
SGY laws are a good buffer, but it really doesn't change the fundamental ethic that you only use deadly force if you absolutely have no other option

If you have no other GOOD/moral option, is the correct stance. There is always an option. You can die or suffer serious harm, and also perhaps allow those you love to receive injury through your failure to resist.

John
 
If I flee from an active shooter when I have a loaded functional firearm, I feel that I would be culpable in their wounds through my negligence.
That is a very interesting side issue, and one that I struggle with.

Legally, unless you are wearing a uniform, there is no duty to render aid to the unarmed victims (what did William Munny say? "Well, he shoulda armed himself..."). I think private citizens only have a legal duty to render aid at sea, in response to a received SOS (and failure to respond is seldom prosecuted).

Morally, your duty to help the unarmed must be weighed against your duty to your family. If they are with you, do you stand and fight or retreat with them them to safety? If they are not, do you risk getting killed--the impact of that will fall heavy on them--to try to save others? What if you fire errantly and injure a bystander--will good intentions save you from bankrupcty in the civil suit, or from being shot by another volunteer defender? What if the prosecutor in your area looks at your volunteering to shoot the attacker as evidence that you were "just waiting for the chance to kill someone," and brings you up on charges?

I can't answer those questions for anyone else. I have trouble answering them for me.
 
The bad guy's flying bullets would probably get me off all legal hooks in this state since he'd removed all doubt about means, opportunity, and intent. The innocent backstop question is always a problem in civil court, and I'd likely lose some cash there - hopefully I would have the presence of mind to verify what's behind the target but stress does funny things.
 
Under Stand Your Ground or Castle Doctrine, if you are where you have a right to be, your home or property under CD or anywhere in public you have a right to be under SYG, there is no legal obligation to retreat in the face of an unjustified attack.

Do I have a moral or ethical duty to retreat from a situation if I can do so in complete safety? Heck with morals or ethics, it is just commonsense that I will retreat in face of attack if it is possible to do so safely, or even with a level of acceptable risk, as long as an innocent is not put at risk by my retreat.

The law was changed to CD and/or SYG because by the time courts decided that the defender could not retreat safely, the defendent was often jobless, penniless, and financially ruined by the legal costs of proving his or her innocence, and in some cases had spent months in custody.

I remember the Massachusetts case that brought Duty To Retreat to my attention.
Ann Jones, Women Who Kill, Holt Rinehart and Winston, 1980.

In Massachusetts Roberta Shaffer was convicted of manslaughter for the 1971 shooting of her fiance, John Ferruzzo, who was threatening to beat her and her little boy, as he had done before. She fled to the basement of her house to join her son and daughter, and when Ferruzzo kept coming, she shot him. Massachusetts law, however, requires that the defendant retreat as far as possible to avoid violence; and Roberta Shaffer had only retreated as far as the basement. Shaffer argued that she could not retreat farther with her young children, and she would not leave them behind; but in 1976 the Massachusetts Supreme Court upheld her conviction.

Shaffer could have climbed out of the basement window, even if it meant leaving her children with their abuser. (Locally we have had too many beating deaths of children by abusive boyfriends or fathers for me to feel Shaffer did the wrong thing.) That case changed a lot of minds, including mine, about the DTR.
 
In an active shooter scenario I would think that unless you are directly in danger, retreating would be the far better option. Police will no doubt respond to a "man/woman with a gun" call and are more likely than not to come into an active shooter situation bullets first. Assuming you have not stopped the shooter(s) before they arrive -- which is a distinct possibility -- the police may see you as the "man with the gun".:eek::uhoh:

Even in a one-on-one situation you should still make every attempt to get away. As several people have mentioned here that is different for each individual based on their physical abilities and the exact situation. Once those options are exhausted the distinction between legal and moral probably will matter very little.
 
Without knowing the situation, this question is entirely too vague. If I can retreat "safely" I would love to avoid shooting another human and all the aftermath (psychological/physical/legal) from that event.

But, what is "safe"? I don't fantasize about having a SEAL or SWAT team to extricate me from the situation by helicopter. Am I fleeing on foot? To where? With my back turned to the potential aggressor? My g/f is NOT a runner, am I to abandon her? What about the Family I plan to have someday? Strollers or kids don't run well either. Will I run to my car and flee the scene? What if "they" follow me? To my home? If they know my car/license plate/address things may have just gotten much worse for me several days/weeks/months later. If I am out of the house by myself you'd better believe I will not take the chance that a criminal learns the location or identity of my loved ones. My moral obligation is first and foremost for me and my loved ones to live. I see no moral obligation to risk the life of me and mine to safeguard the life of anyone who would threaten us. If someone keeps coming after a clear "STOP! Go Away! Leave us alone!" and then keeps coming after a pistol is drawn... Well, I guess I'd rather play the Rattlesnake than the Gazelle in that situation.

Whew... Enough of that for now. I'll wait for the OP to elaborate on their postulation.
 
I do not believe a protagonist has any moral/ethical duty go retreat...but in most cases, it is fiscally prudent to do so.
 
If they know my car/license plate/address things may have just gotten much worse for me several days/weeks/months later. If I am out of the house by myself you'd better believe I will not take the chance that a criminal learns the location or identity of my loved ones.

BluEyes, you're certainly right in most of what you suggest -- that you don't have either a moral, legal, or ethical duty to retreat that invloves abandoning those in your care or putting other grave risks upon yourself. (You wouldn't, for one example, have to "retreat" to the point of jumping off a bridge.)

However, the lines I've quoted get a little off message. You can't shoot someone because they've learned your identity, seen your license plate number, or know your address. You can't assault or kill them because of what they MIGHT do at some later time.

Your ONLY lawful use of force options involve prevention of immediate death or grevious injury. If you can get away, you should. Killing someone because you suspect that they'll harm you later is simply not a justifiable use of force.
 
In an active shooter scenario I would think that unless you are directly in danger, retreating would be the far better option. Police will no doubt respond to a "man/woman with a gun" call and are more likely than not to come into an active shooter situation bullets first. Assuming you have not stopped the shooter(s) before they arrive -- which is a distinct possibility -- the police may see you as the "man with the gun".:eek::uhoh:

Even in a one-on-one situation you should still make every attempt to get away. As several people have mentioned here that is different for each individual based on their physical abilities and the exact situation. Once those options are exhausted the distinction between legal and moral probably will matter very little.
Knowing peolple who were at both VT and Ft. Hood and their stories, I could not stand by and let innocents be slaughtered. I'll take the bet that the shooting will be over and I'll be either dead or reholstered by the time police can arrive.
 
Posted by Creature: I do not believe a protagonist has any moral/ethical duty go retreat...but in most cases, it is fiscally prudent to do so.
And physically.
 
Posted by earplug: To do less would be dishonorable and only contribute to a on going dangerous situation in my neighborhood.
Concepts of honor, valor and so forth have absolutely no place in the thought process involving the possible use of force by one citizen against another.
 
That would seem to legally justify a lethal force response. Of course, we'd still have the practical considerations of whether the person shot can manage that, and if he believes that attempting to shoot will lead to something better than simply being shot several more times. I take it your acquaintance did not fight back after being shot, and that one of the two practical reasons above (or both) was the cause.

It would not serve as proof that, as your acquaintance supposes, fighting back would have gone any better.
His comment about fighting back was more out of saving his pride. He was unarmed and his attacker was obviously not. He was actully able to evade his attacker and further injury by locking himself and others in a secure room after being shot and was able to prevent an injury to anyone else. He did collapse shortly there after before the medics arrived but I guess anyone would that just lost a lung to a GSW.
 
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