mordechaianiliewicz
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18.
Legal Handgun Ownership: 18 or 21?
- Thread starter Ohio Rifleman
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Ohio Rifleman
Member
It seems you're right, Art Eatman. Gun laws aren't based on sound judgement, but rather emotion. That would explain why they don't make any sense. I suppose I could have my dad or whoever buy a handgun from a FFL dealer, and then I could "buy" it from him, so it would be considered a private transaction or something. Also, what is the rationale for this whole "21 to buy a handgun" law? The only possible reason for that I can see is that hanguns are easier to conceal. But, according to the law, I can legally buy a Barret .50 rifle, capable of killing someone from hundreds of yards away, but I can't buy a little .22 target pistol. Shakespeare said it best when he said: "First, kill all the lawyers."
carebear
Member
Gun laws of this kind aren't based on liability so we can't blame the lawyers. We blame these on idiot scared voters and the idiot control-minded politicians they elect.
PATH
Member
In New York State it is 21 to own or posess or use. Technically you can't even touch a handgun unless you have a ccw. As you can't get a ccw until you are 21 well there you have it!
I don't know exactly what the rule is for active duty military and whether Federal trumps state in that instance.
I don't know exactly what the rule is for active duty military and whether Federal trumps state in that instance.
Aguila Blanca
Member
The way I read it, the law does not prohibit you from even giving a handgun to a person under 21. Provided that the gift is for one of the stated purposes. The legalistic problem would then be raised if the recipient did not use said handgun for the purposes mentioned in the law, but DID use the handgun in a home defense situation.
To the original poster: Be careful about asking someone to buy a gun and give it to you. If they do buy it with their own hard-earned dollars and do give it to you, at least under Federal law that's legal. If you provide any of the money, or you have an agreement to pay them back after you get the gun ... then I think you're in "straw purchase" territory.
VARifleman
Member
That would not be legal as he cannot sell to someone under 21. We've been over this a couple times now, OR. :banghead:OR said:
Aguila Blanca
Member
When firearms and laws and regulations are involved, common sense goes out the window. Example (which I've mentioned before, but OR is new here so hasn't heard it before): Awhile ago The Sportsmans Guide Company had in their catalog some 1898 Turkish Mauser battle rifles. Being more than 100 years old, they are exempt from the requirement to transfer through an FFL. In other words, SGC can ship right to your doorstep.Ohio Rifleman said:
Well, I didn't care to pay their price for the rifle, but they were also selling the bayonets as a separate item, and I did want the bayonet. So I ordered one, on-line. The next day I got an e-mail back telling me that the order was cancelled because they can't ship that item to my zip code.
I read the fine print in the catalog and, sure enough, they won't sell any fixed blade knives to my state. So I called, and asked the gal to send it to my friend in another state (which is not on the prohibited list). She apologized, but said that because it was me placing the order, from my prohibited state, they couldn't accept it. But my friend could call directly and order it.
So I asked her if she understood that this bayonet was an accessory to a fully operational military battle rifle. She said she knew that. So I asked her if she could sell me the rifle. She said "Sure." Then I asked her to explain why they don't have a problem selling me a rifle with which I could kill someone half a mile away, but they won't sell me a bayonet that would require me to walk up to the intended victim and stab them up close and personal.
After a looooong pause, she said "I guess it doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?"
I bought the bayonet from another source, for less money.
MachIVshooter
Member
Most firearms laws make little or no sense. Case in point, SBR. You can buy a handgun that fires a rifle round and is far more compact than a rifle. But if you add a stock or some inches to the barrel (thus making it less concealable/portable) it becomes an NFA weapon. So you can own the short handgun version or the long rifle version, but the mid-size unit requires a tax stamp and permit. Go figure.
You need a class III to buy a 450 RPM grease gun, but you can build a hand-crank gatling gun with 5 times that rate of fire wihtout even going through an NICS background check. Add an electric motor or other mechanical firing system to that gatling gun, and you go to club fed for 20 years.
This is why so many folks get snared; the law is erratic and confusing and you damn near need a bachelors degree and case study to understand it. Many of us have been heavily into firearms for a long time and researched the laws very carefully and are still surprised by regulations we didn't know existed. Best thing to do is very carefully review the law regarding your exact circumstances. I used to spend hours in the public library finding htis stuff; the internet has made this mush easier to do.
If you feel that you cannot understand the laws or do not have time to research them, my suggestion is to ONLY buy from FFL's and do not make any modifications/additions to your weapons whatsoever.
The way I read OH law, there is no provision for real-live possesion of handguns for under-21 year olds. It's a state thing. Thankfully I'm now 21 (not a lot of good it does me considering our CCW law makes legal carry practically impossible for someone that drives for his job), and leaving the state ASAP. I suggest you do the same.
hm
Member
I think we put too much emphasis on age and not enough on "is this person actually ready to responsibly own a handgun?". 18 is fine with me for handguns ownership depending on the person. Heck, I know 14 yr olds I would trust with any firearm and 40 year olds I wouldn't trust with a slingshot! I'm thinking it would be good to set all weapon ownership age limits at 18 (gotta be same age as right to vote at most) and make sure handgun owners have to pass a competency test...kinda like with drivers' licenses. Shouldn't be too hard, like with driving tests, so that almost everyone can pass...again this is just for handguns (I think long guns should be universally accessible).
This really seems to be a common misconception but if we just look at it logically one can see that it is NOT a straw purchase. A straw purchase of a firearm is when a person buys a gun for someone else who is prohibited from owning said firearm.
Now if under both state and federal law an 18 year old is allowed to own a handgun than there is no straw purchase. There is a big difference between being prohibited from possessing a firearm and not being allowed to purchase one from a dealer.
Laws are crystal clear that say it is perfectly legal for an 18 year old to buy a handgun from another private person, even in my communist state of NJ. Nowhere in the law does it say the person you're buying it from has to have owned it for years and could not have just bought it yesterday or even 5 minutes ago.
Ohio Rifleman
Member
I completely agree with you, hm, but the law isn't concerned with how mature and responsible a person actually is, I could be a total idiot and go buy a rifle, no questions asked, as long as I don't have a criminal record. In a perfect world, at 18, you can vote, raise a family, get married, join the military, and buy and gun and ammunition you please.
That said, I think Dbl0Kevin is right. The law would not prohibit me from owning a handgun as long as it's for "lawful sporting, eduational or hunting purposes" or something. Which is silly, because, who would say at the gun shop..."Yeah, I'm not buying this handgun for target shooting, I'm gonna use it to rob a bank!" Makes no sense.
That said, I think Dbl0Kevin is right. The law would not prohibit me from owning a handgun as long as it's for "lawful sporting, eduational or hunting purposes" or something. Which is silly, because, who would say at the gun shop..."Yeah, I'm not buying this handgun for target shooting, I'm gonna use it to rob a bank!" Makes no sense.
To give a real world example, when I was 20 years old and living in Arizona I was a regular at the local gun shop. They had just gotten in a nice Ruger Vaquero .45LC that I was itching to get. My girlfriend at the time went in with me and bought it and I then bought it right from her. The store owner knew exactly what was taking place and even commented that I was lucky to have such a nice girlfriend, little did he know she would turn out to be anything but, but nevertheless the point of the matter is there were no laws broken as it was perfectly legal for me to buy the pistol from her.
I only wish I had kept that gun but I ended up trading it along with my MAK-90 at the very same gunshop for my first bushmaster AR-15.
trunkymonkey
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I'm from PA and moving away from home for college. Since I'm living off campus, my father wants to give me a pistol. From what I gather ownership at 18 is ok. what I'm wondering is how hewould give it to me, would we have to do it at a gun store through an ffl or does he just have to give it to me? Thank you for any help.
carebear
Member
trunky,
Assuming it is legal for you to possess it and State law doesn't require any other tomfoolery, under Federal law the transfer consists of him handing it to you.
That's it, no documents, no licensee, no rigamarole.
Assuming it is legal for you to possess it and State law doesn't require any other tomfoolery, under Federal law the transfer consists of him handing it to you.
That's it, no documents, no licensee, no rigamarole.
"trunkymonkey I'm from PA and moving away from home for college. Since I'm living off campus, my father wants to give me a pistol. From what I gather ownership at 18 is ok. what I'm wondering is how hewould give it to me, would we have to do it at a gun store through an ffl or does he just have to give it to me? Thank you for any help."
carebear has it right. the exception in PA law on transfers is relative to relative. your parent may gift you with a handgun. no paperwork/PAncis call,
nothing, hand it to you "here this is yours".
as i did with my daughter on her 18 B-day.
rms/pa
'
carebear has it right. the exception in PA law on transfers is relative to relative. your parent may gift you with a handgun. no paperwork/PAncis call,
nothing, hand it to you "here this is yours".
as i did with my daughter on her 18 B-day.
rms/pa
'
MachIVshooter
Member
No. A straw purchase is buying a firearm for someone with their money so that they do not have to fill out the form 4473 and go through the NICS check. Does not matter if they are prohibited or legal to own, if you buy a gun for them with their money, it is straw purchase.
There is generally interpreted to be some wiggle room in the instance of "father buys hunting rifle for his son with money son made mowing lawns all summer so they could go for deer together that fall" or such things of that nature, but if 19 year old Joe hands 22 year old John $600 and John goes and buys a Glock 19 for Joe at he local gunshop it is straw, even if state law does not prohibit Joe from posession at 18 and Joe has not so much as a traffic infraction.
On the back side of that, if John is kicked out by his wife and Joe lets him stay at his place rent-free for a few weeks, and John decides that a gun would be a good thank you gift for Joe once he is back on his feet, that is OK. Gifting is not straw. However, if Joe says "buy me a pistol and we'll call it even", that is bartering and constitutes straw just as a transfer of currency would. There is a very fine line on this one.
carebear
Member
Only since 1995 have they pushed this position. Prior to that (per the ATF guidelines) it was only a straw man if the intended receiver was a prohibited person. IIRC
Thanks ATF, I feel so much safer that non-prohibited folks now have to fill out a paper that supposedly can't and won't be used for registration.
It prevents that massive crime of, uh, um, well............
mljdeckard
Member
I have related the story here, about after my first two-year stretch in the army, I was an assistant armorer in a front-line unit, I was discharged just short of my 21st birthday, I had bought a handgun from a friend of mine, and I wasn't allowed to hand-carry it home from Germany like everyone else because I was a month short of my 21st birthday. Did it make me roll my eyes? Sure. Do I think that general adulthood should be moved back to 18 nationwide? Yes.
BUT,
Honestly, what you find is, the last couple of years before you magically click over the 21 mark and become an adult might seem long, rhetorical, and stupid, but once you are there, you can buy a Beretta and a beer, and you wonder what the big deal was. I spent that couple of years in an environment where they at least PRETEND to treat you as an adult, as long as you're in uniform, but if I had stayed at home, all I would have done is stayed close enough to my dad to keep the line blurry, as to whose guns they were. If I had been driving a truck with my dad's loaded handgun in the vehicle, the local cops would have looked the other way, because of the agricultural nature of gun ownership where we lived. "It's my dad's gun, his truck." (I'm not sure they would now.)
BUT,
Honestly, what you find is, the last couple of years before you magically click over the 21 mark and become an adult might seem long, rhetorical, and stupid, but once you are there, you can buy a Beretta and a beer, and you wonder what the big deal was. I spent that couple of years in an environment where they at least PRETEND to treat you as an adult, as long as you're in uniform, but if I had stayed at home, all I would have done is stayed close enough to my dad to keep the line blurry, as to whose guns they were. If I had been driving a truck with my dad's loaded handgun in the vehicle, the local cops would have looked the other way, because of the agricultural nature of gun ownership where we lived. "It's my dad's gun, his truck." (I'm not sure they would now.)
gunsmith
member
my uncle gave me a machine gun when I was 17
Uncle Sam, it was a M16A1.
Weird that I could legally use a machine gun before I could legally own a handgun.
Uncle Sam, it was a M16A1.
Weird that I could legally use a machine gun before I could legally own a handgun.
Gray Peterson
Member
A good place to ask this question would be the OFCC forums. Those guys are experts at Ohio law, more so than we ever could be.
See, to me even this (NO handguns before 18) doesn't make sense. If someone less than 18 years old can own a high-powered rifle, or an "assault rifle" or a pistol-caliber carbine or a shotgun, why not a handgun? The ability to cause harm is considerably greater with a long gun than it is with a handgun!
Ohio Rifleman
Member
I have a theory about that, dfaugh. Handguns are more heavily restricted because they're more often used in crimes than long guns, because they're easier to conceal. Yes, high-powered rifles and long guns are much more powerful and deadly, but they are rarely used to commit crimes. When was the last time you heard of a robber holding up a bank with an AR-15? Not that I agree with that law, but I think that's the government's rationale.
Ohio Rifleman
Member
I just checked out the forums on the OFCC web site, as per Lonnie Wilson's suggestion, and they can't really come to a general consensus either. There's a thread there that's almost exactly like this one: http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=4751
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