Legalities question

[stubbicatt]

So. Let's say I found a revolver I like, that started life as a percussion revolver. If purchased as is, no FFL required, as I understand it.

It's been converted to take cartridge cylinders.

It ships with percussion cylinder installed.

Still ok to ship without FFL?

Thanks to any who knows for sure.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

in most of the US the percussion revolver can be shipped without an FFL involved. Same goes for the cartridge cylinder when it is not installed.

Was there a loading gate cut or an ejector rod attached? These modifications could get you into a gray area in some opinions.

If it was a drop in cylinder only, then removing it and replacing the percussion cylinder will leave no evidence it was ever converted.

 

[expat_alaska]

in most of the US the percussion revolver can be shipped without an FFL involved. Same goes for the cartridge cylinder when it is not installed.

Except if it involves transactions in NJ or some other draconian states in the NE.

Was there a loading gate cut or an ejector rod attached? These modifications could get you into a gray area in some opinions.

If it was a drop in cylinder only, then removing it and replacing the percussion cylinder will leave no evidence it was ever converted.

IMO, those concerns could get you in deep kimchee with BATFE or State laws. Have the seller ship it in two separate packages. The pistol is a BP non-firearm. The conversion cylinder is an accessory easily purchased as a part insofar as BATFE is concerned.

[As an aside, BATFE allows one to purchase M-16 full auto/select-fire components (bolt carrier, selector, disconnector, hammer, trigger, sear, et al) legally, but don't have a semi-auto AR-15 (no matter the manufacturer because BATFE will state that the receiver could be easily modified) in your possession or you could face major fines and major jail time for this "offense".]

Insofar as BP firearms, I have seen a YouTube vid with someone shooting a converted Colt .44 BP C&B replica with a shoulder stock: the barrel is 8" or less. BATFE will consider this a SBR (short-barrel-rifle) if all the parts are in the same vicinity/domicile. While I think this is ridiculous, the law is the law.

Just food for thought.

Jim

 

[StrawHat]

...Insofar as BP firearms, I have seen a YouTube vid with someone shooting a converted Colt .44 BP C&B replica with a shoulder stock: the barrel is 8" or less. BATFE will consider this a SBR (short-barrel-rifle) if all the parts are in the same vicinity/domicile. While I think this is ridiculous, the law is the law.

Just food for thought.

Jim...

It is amazing how many folks want to be the poster child in a Federal Court case!

Kevin

 

[expat_alaska]

It is amazing how many folks want to be the poster child in a Federal Court case!

Amen. I don't have a FB, Twitter, nor any other social media accounts, nor have I posted any YT vids.

Just asking for trouble, they are, yes. (Yoda)

I rely on others to post info they may later be liable for and I'll learn from their transgressions, I will, yes.

Jim

 

[4v50 Gary]

If a cartridge cylinder is sent in the same package, then an argument may be made that it requires a FFL. I wouldn't want to be the test case against that.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The two packages idea is the best. They are only "parts" at that point. Whether or not you can legally possess or legally assemble them into a revolver will be up to your local gun laws for your state and/or city.

LD

 

[brushhippie]

The way I understand it...they can be in the same package but the cylinder has to be in a box by itself....thats the way we have sent them...box inna box...wonder who that youtube guy was shootin that illegal gun?... lol

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Sorry for arriving late to the dance, but ship the cylinder separately, as others have advised. It is merely a part.

 

[Rattus58]

Just remember that some states look at as "can be converted".

 

[Erich]

Eek. Don't do it without an FFL. As 4v50 Gary notes, one does not want to be a test case.

It's been converted to take cartridge cylinders.

My lawyer sense tingles when I infer that the cartridge conversion cylinder has been installed in the past. I worry that there's a fair chance that our friends at BATFE would consider that a modern cartridge firearm has been manufactured at the moment of installation - and that subsequent reinstallation of the percussion cylinder does not change that status. Any modern firearm would need to be transferred through an FFL, of course.

While I cannot give you legal advice (though I am a member of the bar of your state) because (among other things) I do not know the facts of your situation, there are enough flags in your description here that I personally would not have such a firearm (on which a conversion cylinder had been installed in the past) sent to me without the interstate transfer going through an FFL. (If going through the FFL would be too much of a hassle, I'd simply take a pass on the buy.)

The safe thing to do is to ask BATFE for an opinion describing the precise facts of your situation. As a criminal defense lawyer somewhat familiar with the byzantine twists of federal criminal law, I can assure you that you do not want to risk your liberties based on legal opinions gleaned from well-meaning folks on a firearms forum - ask those charged with enforcing the law:

https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Even in your own state, things can get hairy. Transport a percussion revolver in the car all you want in PA. If the conversion cylinder is in it, you need a license to carry to transport it under MANY circumstances. Whether having the cylinder simply next to the gun in the same case could be a question that costs you thousands in criminal defense lawyer fees to get the answer.

Part of the problem is that laws sometimes change without adapting to changing (or even forgotten) technology. In PA percussion and flint handguns are exempt from some laws as antiques. However, technically, modern 209 or primer ignited muzzle loaders are not exempt.

 

[Crawdad1]

I'm not giving any advice but the way I operate is if it can be converted back to a percussion revolver then the conversion cylinder is a part. If the revolver has been modified that it cannot be converted back to a percussion revolver, which most are, then you need a FFL. My revolver is always transported with the percussion cylinder installed in the revolver keeping the conversion cylinder unloaded and wrapped in a rag and separate from my revolver. That's the way I operate you do what you want.

That's why I bought these things (primitive weapons) to get away from all the BS federal and state crap and paperwork that's going on and that is forever changing.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

If the revolver has been modified that it cannot be converted back to a percussion revolver, which most are, then you need a FFL

No, the vast majority buy a "drop in" cylinder. In some cases the 1858 Remington needs a small bit of filing to the receiver so the cylinder does not rub...this is not a major modification to the frame, and the cap fired cylinder will still function without flaw in the revolver.

If you can legally get a cap-n-ball revolver shipped to you, you can ship it to anyone else who can legally receive the same cap-n-ball revolver as long as it still functions with the cap-n-ball cylinder, and the cartridge cylinder is not shipped with it.

If you can legally get a cylinder to convert your cap-n-ball revolver to fire black powder cartridges without an FFL, you can ship the same cylinder to a person who can legally receive it without an FFL.

In some states you cannot accept a cap-n-ball revolver shipped in, nor can you buy one in a state where they are considered legal and transport it into your state if it's prohibited. In some states merely placing the part in the frame is considered "converting" or "manufacturing" a revolver, and you must be licensed to do that.

LD

 

[Crawdad1]

IF it cannot be converted back to a percussion then you need a FFL meaning an ejector rod and a loading gate or some other modifications. Yes the vast majority are drop in and ATF considers this a part.

 

[stubbicatt]

Thanks fellas. Food for thought.

I can just see the look of puzzlement on the face of my customary FFL dealer if he receives a cap and ball for me.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

should not be any puzzlement. On line Dealers from NJ are required or at least think they are required to send guns even antiques to FFL's when going to other states. My local gun shop just laughs and doesn't charge me when such a gun comes in.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

ALL the FFL holders that I have ever dealt with in my 66 years have been great people. The security expense, paper work and record keeping they have to put up with have kept me from applying all my life. My guy ships or transfers for $20. That's a small price to pay for piece of mind if you are at all worried.