Legality of Trigger Jobs

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scurtis_34471

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I had a firearms instructor tell me that carrying a gun that has had trigger work can be construed as premeditation and get you tossed in jail for an otherwise justified shoot. I think he is full of crap, especially if the trigger job was done by a gunsmith and I've got the paperwork to prove it.

Are there any lawyers or other knowledgeable people around here who can shed light on this.
 
Clarify, please.

I am not a lawyer, and don't pretend to be one on or off of the TV or the internet.

That said, in a stressful situation, a lightened trigger may cause you to pull the trigger when you were only intending to take up the slack.

A smooth trigger - fine. A light trigger - not fine.

So when you say "trigger job", do you mean a lightened trigger, or a smoothed out trigger?
 
I wouldn't say it's "premediation."

I would say this is a lower limit to how light a defensive trigger should be. A 2 pound trigger is for target work, not self defense. That's more for reducing the chance of accidentilly firing while you are under stress then keeping the lawyers happy though.

As far as a trigger job that stays within what most people would consider a "reasonable" weight for a defensive firearm, I don't think just the fact that you had the trigger worked on would cause any increased liability. Now, if you did carry a gun with a so-called "hair trigger", like say a very crisp and short 2 or 3 pound pull, I can see where a prosectutor might try to make that an issue.
 
Trigger jobs, handloaded ammo, hollow points, etc....

These stories have been around forever and are continually repeated.

Of course there's no telling what a prosecutor on a bender might pull out to try to nail someone but there are not many cases where this kind of stuff has actually mattered.

Google "Harold Fish" if you want to read more. The prosecutor made a big deal out of the fact the guy had a 10mm so he must have been "out to kill". But, it seems to have been a questionable shoot anyway so who knows.

IANAL and all that but I guess a prosecutor could use just about anything he wants to to paint you in a bad light if he thinks the shoot was bad. As for a specific citing that a trigger job = premeditation you're not gonna find that but there's nothing to say it couldn't be used against you.
 
I had a firearms instructor tell me...

Most of the worst advice I've ever heard started with a line like that...replace "firearms instructor" with mechanic, technician, gunsmith, police officer, lawyer, etc, etc, etc....

My point: Just 'cause someone has a job doing a specific skill doesn't mean you should trust their advice on the subject, and I think the advice you were given is hogwash.
 
I had a firearms instructor tell me that carrying a gun that has had trigger work can be construed as premeditation and get you tossed in jail for an otherwise justified shoot. I think he is full of crap, especially if the trigger job was done by a gunsmith and I've got the paperwork to prove it.

A trigger job will NOT change the circumstances of a justified shoot.

Whether you did the trigger job, your cousin, or a gunsmith does not matter in regard to a justified shoot. If you had the right to use lethal force, you can use any legal means you want and be within all aspects of the law.

Now, if your trigger job involves making a semi-auto gun full auto, then you could be in a fully justified self defense shooting and be arrested for a firearms violation, charged, and found guilty, but only for the firearms violation, not for the shooting.

Let's put it another way, if a trigger job could be construed a premeditation, then so could carrying a gun, buying a gun, owning a gun, or loading the gun that was used in the shooting.

Of course, you could ask him for a listing of the particular cases from your state where a trigger job was determined to be indicative of premeditation and the person found guilty of the shooting in what otherwise would have been a self defense shooting. My guess, he will claim ignorance of any specific cases.
 
Google "Harold Fish" if you want to read more. The prosecutor made a big deal out of the fact the guy had a 10mm so he must have been "out to kill". But, it seems to have been a questionable shoot anyway so who knows.
After the trial some members of the jury were interviewed for TV. I don't remember the program, but I will never forget a lady from the jury saying that the fact that Mr. Fish had such a powerful gun was a major factor in the guilty verdict. Granted, his lawyer should have been able to counter that, but the fact remains Mr. Fish is in jail today, at least partly, because of the gun he chose to carry.

Do as you please, but for myself, I'll follow the advice I paid Mas Ayoob to give me and carry unmodified guns as close to what the local police carry as possible.

As for trigger jobs...sure it shouldn't make any difference, but then neither should the caliber of your Glock.
 
First, whether or not it’s a justified shooting may not always be clear. Evidence may be equivocal; witnesses, if any, may tell conflicting stories; there are many things that could cause a DA or plaintiff lawyer to think he could make a case. If the powers that be agree that the use of lethal force was justified, everything will be fine; and everyone can go home.

But if you find yourself on trial, someone in authority did not think it was a justified shoot. And this is where the details can get sticky. It may well become your burden to prove by a preponderance of the evidence the factors that permit you to use lethal force in self defense, i. e. that you were reasonably in fear of being killed or grievously injured. This can place your perception, state of mind and disposition in issue. You will probably need to tell your story about how you were in fear for your life and had no choice, and whether or not the jury believes you depends in part on the impression you make on them.

There are many factors that can affect how a jury will view you and your testimony -- factors that can help dispose the jury favorably toward you, or unfavorably toward you. Those factors can include how you dress (showing up in urban camo with your face painted is definitely a very bad idea), how you cut your hair, your tone of voice and demeanor when testifying, etc. And if you modified the gun you used in a manner that can be argued to a jury demonstrated an irresponsible or reckless character, such as by lightening the trigger considerably, such behavior may also dispose one or more members of the jury unfavorably toward you.

No one factor by itself is determinative. If you are on trial, you try to do as many things as possible to make the jury like you. The factors are cumulative, and you try to control as much as you can. One thing you can control is whether or not you've modified your gun in a way that could cause you to appear reckless or irresponsible.

So Suzy Soccermom now asks herself, as she sits on your jury deciding whether to believe your story about what happened when you shot that nice gang member, why the gun wasn’t lethal enough the way it came form the factory to satisfy you. Remember, if you’re on trial, Suzi Soccermom and her friends are going to be deciding if the shooting was justified.

Sometime I think that we all spend too much time hanging out with like minded folks -- shooters and gun hobbyists. We tend to forget how some ordinary folks see the world.

However, it's been my experience that I give some of my non-shooting acquaintances the willies. I know that they are troubled that I think and talk about some of the things we discuss on these Forums -- like shooting people and wound channels and training to fight with guns, etc. This is very troubling stuff to a whole lot of folks out there. Maybe it shouldn't be, but it is. A lot of people aren't real comfortable with us. Remember the sheep, sheepdog and wolf model. The sheep don't much like the sheepdog because he's too much like the wolf.

Ordinarily I don't care what people think of me. But when some of those people are going to be deciding if I go to jail or go home, I do begin to care. And some of those people may have doubts about whether private citizens ought to be able to have guns in the first place.

Of course the tough question is what do I do about the gun with a horrible, gritty, creepy 7 pound trigger that I have modified to a crisp 4 1/2 pounds. First of course, I probably need to do something because the gun really isn't terribly useful for its intended purpose with the lousy factory trigger. And second, if the prosecutor wants to make an issue of my having modified the gun, I guess I'd need to call (and pay) an expert witness to testify that a 4 1/2 pound trigger is not a hair trigger and is, in fact, quite reasonable.

Of course in theory that same tactic is usable when the trigger has been lightened to 2 1/2 pound. However, the defense might have trouble finding a credible expert to testify that a 2 1/2 pound trigger is reasonable on a carry gun. Also the prosecutor now calls his own expert who would testify that he never takes a trigger below 4 1/2 pounds.

None of this is simple or clear. There's lots of gray area here. In my view, we just need to play the odds well, avoid modifications as much as possible and certainly avoid anything outside the norm. And once we think that we've planned and prepared everything as well as we can, we just go about our business.
 
If you bought it used from a private party, they can't prove you did the trigger job or hired it done. It could've been done before you bought it and you can claim you didn't even know there was anything "special" about it. They also have no record of you owning it. I like buying used from a private party.
 
A prosecutor will use whatever dirty, BS tactic they can to nail you. Yeah, they could gripe about your trigger job. They could also gripe about ammo choice, laser sights, extended safeties, "tactical" looking add-ons, night sights, the condition you carried the gun in, your holster, etc.

It doesn't matter. If they think the jury will buy it, they'll try it.
 
IANAL, but I think proud2deviate #11 and others have the basic point.

For example, I tend to think Ayoob's advice about using what the local gendarmerie uses is probably good (though not mandatory), but it won't stop a motivated attorney. If you don't carry what the police do, it could be "So you think you know better than the police department what works?". If you carry exactly what they do, it could be "So, you think you're a police officer, do you?" and so on. If they don't have anything better (for instance, that you actually broke the law), they'll play what they have. That's their job in an adversarial system of justice.

So, in answer to the OP, I suppose an attorney could make use of a trigger job to argue some point or other about you, but unless the matter at issue is a result of the mechanical condition of your firearm, they can use practically anything else, too.

As fiddletown #9 points out, if you end up in front of a jury, things can get kind of random. The prosecutor knows that, you need to know it also. But it won't necessarily be about your trigger, your reloads, your caliber selection, or any other one thing.

regards,

GR
 
So how many cases can y'all name where a trigger job made a good shoot into a bad shoot?

Yes, if you want to play the fear angle, a prosecutor will use everything s/he can to get a conviction. That is their job. So every aspect will be analyzed. Virtually any aspect of a gun can be portrayed in a negative manner. Will that stop you from carrying or do you have a prosecution-proof gun?

Maybe you don't want to "give the prosecutor any additional ammunition"? Do you really think one more attribute will really make any difference compared to all the things that could be argued?

Yes, the Harold Fish folks didn't like his 10mm. They didn't like his hollowpoints. Most of all, they didn't like the fact that the story he told didn't match the forensic evidence.
 
Thank you.

Double Nought Spy (Today 06:08 AM) #13 asks:

So how many cases can y'all name where a trigger job made a good shoot into a bad shoot?
Thank you.

Next time someone tells you what the law is, or what a lawyer will do, politely ask them for the number of the statute, a citation for a case, or some other evidence that you personally can examine for how they know this. No need to be hostile about it, you're just trying to educate yourself (which is, or should be, true). And BTW, "Google 'Harold Fish'" would be a good (though maybe not final) answer to that.

Remember the old quote (attributed to Mark Twain, but I don't know for certain) that goes something like "It ain't what you don't know that hurts ya so much as what you know that ain't so."

regards,

GR
 
I have found that gun owners tend to be overly paranoid and uninformed about the laws surrounding gun ownership and use. The gun owners on this and other sites tend to be better informed, but more paranoid.
 
A prosecutor will use whatever dirty, BS tactic they can to nail you.
Defense counsel should use whatever dirty, BS tactic they can to defend you. The only way a defendant can win is to win - be acquitted. Litigation, whether civil or criminal, is war. Treat it that way. Don't blame the prosecutor if you lose.
 
Sometime I think that we all spend too much time hanging out with like minded folks -- shooters and gun hobbyists. We tend to forget how some ordinary folks see the world.

Hmm , shooters come from all walks of life . From lawyers to ditch diggers . Rich and poor . "Ordinary" is subjective . Shooters/gun hobbyists are no less ordinary than those that collect/use any other item .

This is the attitude one can see within a jury of our peers . That it isn't " normal" . In reality , it's fear of something they don't understand or ignorance of the subject . Or both .

This is the attitude and perception that must be challenged and changed . Allowing others (and even ourselves) to consider our hobby/lifestyle to be out of the ordinary just enforces the anti gun crowds myths and agenda.



.
 
As has already been mentioned several times, any prosecutor with an agenda or if the shooting is suspicious COULD use the trigger job as an additional leverage point during prosecution. The intent being to throw as much of the brown and smelly at the defendant with the intent of scaring them into a plea deal.

The real issue would be if the trigger job could lead to the weapon being actually or potentially either unreliable or likely to fail.

If this work was done by a professional like Bill Springer then the problem would probably go away. Hard for a prosecutor to rebut facts although they'll try.....

If it was done by some ham fisted amateur with the hand-eye co-ordination of a 2 year old then .........

You should probably be more concerned if there was a civil suit after a failed or dropped criminal prosecution due to the difference in the burden of proof in a civil suit.
 
Do as you please, but for myself, I'll follow the advice I paid Mas Ayoob to give me and carry unmodified guns as close to what the local police carry as possible.

This.
 
Next time someone tells you what the law is, or what a lawyer will do, politely ask them for the number of the statute, a citation for a case, or some other evidence that you personally can examine for how they know this. No need to be hostile about it, you're just trying to educate yourself (which is, or should be, true).

Keep in mind that, right or wrong, the most respected name in these matters is Massad Ayoob and he's made it clear in his courses and books that he believes it a good idea to be concerned about this and take it into account when choosing your equipment.

He quotes no statutes or laws either, but it's no surprise that gun owners want to follow his advice.

When it comes to trying to stay out of jail we might be motivated a little beyond just finding case law.

Case law has to come from somewhere, and none of us wants to be "that guy".

I tend to think it's overblown as well but it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility.
 
A trigger job will NOT change the circumstances of a justified shoot.

Tell me one case where a justified shoot had a guilty conviction on anything.

Tell me where any law says you cant lighten up a trigger pull carry gun or other wise

tell me any case where trigger pull has even been questioned in any court trial in the US.

I am willing to bet there are none. Why? BEcause I have searched and searched and have never found one. I have emailed high profile individuals and they could not find a single case either.

On the other hadn a man was tried in canada for a light trigger in a shooting, but thats not the US.

look at this for help, vere informative! http://www.ghostinc.com/category/1triggerweight/

oh yeah threads like this get very heated and end up getting locked so lets keep it a friendly debate guys
 
If you put your finger on any trigger, it better be because you intend to pull it and destroy what is in front of the muzzle.
 
As far as a good shot goes I don't think a trigger job is going to change anything.

That being said sometimes a shoot isn't good and that is where something unusual could hang you.

Say you are robbed and draw your weapon, you place finger on trigger and BG runs off. You hear a noise, turn and accidentally shoot someone else.

Now I think I am going to get a lot of flack.
"That would never happen"
"A good shooter will always take finger off trigger the INSTANT threat is gone"
"That's murder you should go to jail".


Well I have been in combat and the adrenalin rush is massive, more than I felt skydiving. Vision, fine motor control, hearing all suffer as a result of your body pumping a massive amount of chemicals into your blood. Your body isn't concerned about a good shoot, your body isn't concerned about bystanders. Your body is worried about one thing and one thing only: staying alive.

Now accidentally shooting a bystander is horrible, but it isn't murder, it likely isn't even manslaughter. LEO have accidentally shot people, so have soldiers. Sometimes a death is an accident. Now regardless you will have to live with that fact for the rest of your life.

A DA could say the shooting was an accident however reducing the trigger weight to an unsafe level was negligent. Your negligence contributed to the accidents.

This could result in charges where there otherwise was no charges OR a stronger charge.

Lastly I think lightened triggers outside of race guns are a waste of time and money. A M-4 has a 7.5lbs trigger officially but mine felt more like 8-9lbs. The only time I ever fired it in combat it felt like a feather. I would never have noticed a lightened trigger job, and I doubt I would have been "slowed down" by a 15lb trigger. Don't judge a trigger as being too "heavy" based on how it feels at a range in a non-stress environment. That weight is INTENTIONAL. In combat/SD/life death situation your body is going to be "juiced up". That 5lb trigger will feel like a 2lb one. With a 2lb trigger you may be explaining to the cops "I swear I didn't pull the trigger".
 
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For all that I don't care for them, DAO pistols obviate the issue of "Trigger job!"

If you wind up in a jury trial, and the prosecution or civil-suit complainant's attorney raises that issue, merely pass a SA pistol and a DAO pistol among the jury. It's quickly obvious that your DAO was the heaviest trigger pull. (Or provide witness testimony as to the comparative trigger pulls.)
 
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