Less Lethal Options

[Jeff White]

There is a lot of discussion here about less lethal options for private citizens. The subject of less lethal shotgun rounds comes up regularly here or in the shotgun forum. Taser has released or is about to release a model marketed for the private citizen. Many of you carry OC along with your CCW.

I normally advise against anyone who's not duty bound to take an assailant into custody to steer clear of the less lethal options. Why? None of them work against everyone, every time. If you use your less lethal option and it fails to have the desired effect on your attacker, you are most likely to already be close to being in arms reach and employing your lethal force option may be difficult or impossible. You are now faced with a hand to hand fight.

If local laws prohibit you from carrying a firearm, OC may be your only option. In this case I recommend that you spray and run.

The incident related in this news article happened yesterday in the St. Louis metro area. It is a good illustration of how less lethal options should be employed. Backed up by someone else with a lethal force option, should the less lethal option fail.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...FEF14497BCEBA7A3862570D9001C7DD6?OpenDocument

Officer kills woman police say pointed gun
By Heather Ratcliffe
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
12/15/2005

WILDWOOD

Police in Wildwood fatally shot a 54-year-old Wildwood woman who, authorities said, had commandeered a delivery truck at gunpoint and walked through a Wildwood neighborhood flourishing a gun and a knife before she pointed the gun at an officer.

Authorities identified the woman as Susan Jean Riegel. They were still investigating a motive for her behavior.

A house across the street from the shooting, in an upscale neighborhood, was struck by a bullet, but police said no one else was hurt.

The incident started just after 1 p.m. at Route 109 and Clayton Road near Lafayette High School. Police reported several calls about a woman in a fur coat flourishing a knife and pointing a long gun at motorists. Riegel lived in the 500 block of Black Canyon Court, authorities said.

Police said she jumped onto a DHL delivery truck and threatened the driver, ordering him to drive her. The driver was not injured.

The delivery truck stopped near the corner of Still Creek Pass and Larimer Trail in a neighborhood lined with two-story houses.

Riegel jumped out and was walking up the street, waving the gun and knife, and residents there also called police, said St. Louis County police Sgt. Mason Keller.

Police said officers ordered her to drop her weapon. One of the officers shot her with a Taser stun gun, but the dart did not penetrate her thick coat, and the shock was not effective, police said.

Keller said Riegel then raised the gun, pointing it at one of the officers. The officer fired, striking her several times. She was taken to St. John's Mercy Medical Center, where she died.

Sheila Richards, who lives nearby, said she had been startled when she heard police sirens rushing down her street, an unusual sound in the quiet, hilly suburb.

A few minutes later she heard several shots. She peeked out of her front window to see officers with their guns drawn.

"I didn't see any panic on their faces," she said, "so I thought it must have been under control. There was no more danger."

This type of incident is what less lethal options are for. The last attempt to end a situation that would call for the use of deadly force without using deadly force. Unfortunately for Susan Jean Riegel the taser didn't work as advertised and she's not safely in a hospital or jail this morning.

Think about this incident the next time you contemplate buying some of those nifty beanbag shotgun shells or that new taser, and ask yourself who is going to cover you while you attempt to drive off the home invader with it.

Jeff

 

[AStone]

This is an example of poor editing by a newspaper editor. {Not you, Jeff.}

"Officer kills woman police say pointed gun"

I had to read that three times before the headline became clear as:

Officer kills woman THAT police say pointed gun.

To newspaper publishers: please don't waste my time.

Edit your headlines.

Nem

 

[chopinbloc]

i understand the premise but i disagree in part. i carry a handgun always and a less lethal option usually. sometimes it's oc spray, sometimes a taser (got a good deal on a used one). if i plan to go to the bar, i'll bring at least the oc, sometimes the taser as well but firearms are not allowed in establishments that serve alcohol for consumption. i rarely go to bars but when i do, i'm not willing to get rolled in the parking lot. the reason i started carrying less lethal options is that when i have a firearm on me, i cannot allow myself to get into a scuffle with someone. if some jackass wants to start a fight with me and i'm unable to just talk him down and walk away, i can't exactly shoot him but whether i win or lose a fight, he could feel my firearm and take it from its holster. if i can keep him at a distance with oc spray or a taser, then i won't lose my weapon to him. if the threat warrants deadly physical force, that's what i will respond with - and quick. if it does not i will respond with an intermediate level of force.

now, speaking of which, i've been looking for a decent concealment holster for an x26 for quite a while and i can't find anything. any suggestions?

 

[Mr_Moore]

State trooper dies using pepper spray.

Locally we just had a state trooper die because while he was spraying pepper the other guy was spraying bullets. The trooper took 3 to the head.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/5544209/detail.html

The second passenger also said that Pokorny used his pepper spray, and while it was dispersed, it possibly affected Pokorny, as well.

The first passenger said he and the other passenger ran away, hearing multiple gunshots in rapid succession.

I think this deserves its own thread.

 

[TallPine]

I carry one of those Maxfire flashlights - which would not normally even be considered a weapon - because it could be used to temporarily blind or confuse an attacker. Besides, I can also it use for things like finding my way around in the dark Shining it down at the ground, you can still see someone's face and attitudes, and it only takes a flick of the wrist to raise the angle to eye level.

It doesn't require one to be at arms length to be effective either. Next step for me is the 357 mag

I agree with Jeff. I have the further issue that I am asthmatic so that OC might do me more harm than anyone else.

 

[Biker]

TallPine...

I know from personal experience that OC will put a person with lung troubles in the hospital. If you have asthma, don't go near it.
Biker

 

[ctdonath]

An ASP baton is always in arm's reach. After several years of Kali (Philipine stick fighting) I feel it has the broadest spectrum of application, from intimidating "shunk" sound opening, to light nudge, to persuasive body mechanics, to breaking things, to lethal impacts. It looks innocuous (black cylinder in pocket, if noticed at all), does not carry lethal weapon stigmas, is cheap enough to tolerate losing ($60), built well enough to bet life on, is largely unrecognized in GA law, and allowed pretty much anywhere ('cept metal-detector level secured areas). Only deficiency is the definitive one-stop-shot potential for extreme cases. I'm much more likely to need a tool to dissuade someone than make 'em DRT (that tool is also handy).

This choice comes after considering many "less lethal" options. OC is area of effect, and may affect others (me, wife, asthmatic dog) at a particularly inappropriate moment (combat). Knives have there place - lethal options alongside guns. Kubaton is always handy, but is more intricate & intimate than may be desired. Tasers are one-shot: miss a proper contact, and now you must transition to something else at a time you don't want to be transitioning (only good for teams of cops where others have options already deployed). Stunguns are pointless: need several seconds of consistent contact on effective point to work and can kill unexpectedly (CNS contact); I dumped 17 rounds into a target accurately upon getting a 30,000 volt jumpstart. Non/less-lethal ammunition in normal guns is extremely risky: you'd dang well better assume that anything coming out a gun barrel is lethal, lest you be wrong about what you just loaded ("hmmm, Breneke slug instead of beanbag - OOPS!"). Ultra-bright flashlights are interesting, but better considered an upgrade to the already-carried flashlight, rather than initial go-to tool.

Less lethal weapons must be reliable and provide a spectrum of application. Single-use narrow-effect tools are not appropriate for dynamic situations - if it doesn't work, what's next? and how long to transition to it?

 

[Manedwolf]

There is a lot of discussion here about less lethal options for private citizens. The subject of less lethal shotgun rounds comes up regularly here or in the shotgun forum. Taser has released or is about to release a model marketed for the private citizen. Many of you carry OC along with your CCW.

I have both a CCW, and under a carseat, a cranked-up Zeus semiauto paintball pistol with a laser (it looks like a chunky semiauto, complete with an underside rail), loaded with 10 rounds of Pepperball OC frangible plastic 68-caliber. Yes, the same Pepperballs the cops get, I'd found an online supplier that's no longer around that would sell them to civilians. I think US Cavalry will, but only in mass quantities. If you get some, ALSO get a few packages of the scented-powder training balls. Train with it...these things do not behave quite like paintballs, so you'll want to practice with a target at varying ranges before using it to deter a threat. Also don't trust a cheapo $25 Wal-Mart launcher. One of these breaking in the barrel would ruin your day in a hurry.

The gun is for a life-threatening threat. The pepperballs can stop a lesser threat at a distance, can be used to break up the hypothetical "bunch of guys beating up on someone in an alley" scenario while you call the cops, and they only count as a "chemical deterrent" in this state. Hitting someone with one COULD count as assault, depending, so you really would want to make sure it's being used for a justifiable "use of nonlethal force" by your state laws.