Lessons learned from being on either side of the guiding profession.

[H&Hhunter]

There are several reasons why for the most part I don't like to do guided hunts. And almost all of them are because I don't like the way many hunting guides conduct those hunts. Now don't get me wrong there are some really good experienced guides out there.

So let me back up a bit take this from the other side of the fence. When I am guiding I try to figure out how experienced my hunter is. If the hunter is experienced I basically leave them alone. Meaning that my primary job is to show them good country and find animals for them. Once I show them the hunting area, and once I find them an animal and sneak them into a good shooting position the only other thing I'll do is give them the proper range. When they shoot, whether they decide to shoot or not, is up to the hunter and I am okay with whatever they decide to do.

Having a hunter pass on a really big animal is tough sometimes, having a hunter miss that super easy shot you just set them up for is also tough. But as a guide your job is to be supportive and accommodating. I figure that if I showed you that big old buck and you passed on it or missed it I've done my job and I've done it well. The next step is try my best to find you another critter and if we do find you another one do my level headed best to get you into a good position for a shot. I've had guys pass on multiple critters only to miss one at last light on the last day. Most understand that the guides job was done well and the failure was all on the hunter, others get all grumpy and go away mad. Either way I know in my heart that it was a job done well.

My primary job as a guide is to keep everybody safe, not get lost, and if able show my hunters a good time and show them some critters. If somebody does get hurt I have the training and skills within reason, to care for them or get them help. If needed I can be a shooting coach, minor rifle repairman, outdoors and survival instructor, animal/trophy field care expert, and part time pack mule. I can also be a passable campfire cook, story teller and horse wrangler. One of the things that I do that I think is important is that I judge the level of my clients fitness and I adjust my pace to them. If I am going to go ahead of them I tell them so. I'll say something like. "Hey I'm going to go to the top of the ridge right here and have a look around. Take your time and get up there when you can." Something like that. I don't like a guide who leaves their client in the dust. Your job as a guide is to move at the pace of your client, not to run them into the dirt or leave them in the dust!

The guide should not be expected to be a life coach, psychologist, marriage counselor, family therapist or relationship expert.

As a client I expect a guide to be knowledgeable about the area they are guiding in. I expect the guide to know how to field judge the animal he or she is guiding for. I expect them to be in good shape and have equipment that is up the task and terrain we are hunting in. I really don't appreciate having to go in early because the guide was wearing cotton jeans in a rain storm and is now getting cold! I have the correct gear on you as a guide darn swell should too!

I do not expect them to magically produce animals. Hunting is hunting sometimes you win sometimes you you don't. If I miss a shot, I miss a shot that is USUALLY not the guides fault. ( More on that shortly!). I do not expect a guide to stay up late and be my campfire companion. If the guide needs to sleep let them sleep!

Guides can do some very annoying things too.

The number one most annoying thing a guide can ever do in my opinion is try and rush your shot! They set you up and then as soon as the animal is in position they start urging you to SHOOT, SHOOT, HURRY UP, HE ISN'T GOING TO STAND THERE ALL DAY, COMMON SHOOT! There is no finer way to screw up the clients shot than by trying to rush him into a shot! (see above.)

In 2008 I had a similar incident happen to me on a cape buffalo hunt. I got goaded into shooting the wrong buffalo. That will NEVER happen to me again! If you've got a guide or a buddy doing the SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT routine the best thing you can do is calmly turn to them make eye contact and ask them to please calm down. That usually simmers everybody down enough that you can get back to the business of making a shot.

Another thing that bugs me is unwanted and unneeded gear, rifle, caliber or hunting technique advice from an inexperienced, or cocky guide. Several years ago I was guiding a very well known gun and hunting writer. The guy has literally hunted all over the world for just about every kind of animal you can imagine. One of the other guides in camp had a bad case of hunter envy I guess. He could not resist telling this writer how every piece of his equipment, and every hunt he every did, and every rifle he ever used was flawed in some way. It made for a very uncomfortable camp. I had the attitude that the only thing I was showing that guy was some new country. I showed him some animals and left him alone to hunt the way he wanted to. There is no way that I will ever have the depth of hunting experience or the depth of product knowledge that this guy had DUH that is his JOB! At the end of the hunt he pulled me aside and thanked me for the experience. He mentioned that it was a breath of fresh air NOT having somebody try to compete with him in camp or in the field.

As they say a man has got to know his limitations. He's also got to know when he's severely outclassed.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Not that I like a lot of regulations or government like "certifications"...

The problems that you mention are in part because in some places, anybody who has access to land and the internet can set up "guided hunts". The profession is often word-of-mouth, and reputation, from what I've seen. Even a good guide may feel the pressure of making sure that really fine animal he set up for his client gets harvested, as that helps a guide's "rep". A photo on the website or in the bunkhouse helps bragging rights. Plus, Mr. X can afford the price, has a good time, and refers Mr. Y to the same guide... and so on and so on....

I have been on a few guided hunts. The only thing the guides worried about in the moose hunt was that everybody was using a caliber that when properly shot, would humanely harvest the moose. The other hunts were birds/waterfowl, and only once was a guide a bit tense...but earlier in the day another one of the guides had a bird dog shot and killed, and after our guide saw we were very cautious and aware of his dogs and the surroundings... he calmed down (we didn't blame him for being tense, eh?)

Perhaps the guides could come up with their own association, and their own grading system so one could either be "certified" or not. The problem with that is a) often associations degenerate into a small group of "buddies" who protect each other and any newbie's are screwed (especially when income is involved) and b) who determines the standards? c) Nothing stops guides which don't make-the-grade in a fair and legit association from starting their own association, and then it gets confusing for the customers. It seems to work with turn-key businesses and the BBB...but would it work with guides?

LD

 

[H&Hhunter]

Dave,

Everything you mentioned above is correct. Your observations are spot on. The State on New Mexico requires a guide to be registered and "qualified". The process is simply a written test which heavily covers NM game regulations and has some general outdoors, food safety and equine safety questions. After becoming registered as a guide you are required to work under a registered outfitter. I was a registered guide in NM. While the test assures that you know the NM game regs it's still a very loose and mostly meaningless process as far as quality assurance to the hunter. The quality of the guide is very dependent on the quality of the outfitter that guide is working and trained under. That is not to say that a good guide can't get stuck working for a bad outfitter or visa vi. But the system is a set up to foster inbreeding and cronyism. Which pretty much describes the state of NM in regards to local government anyhow.

Alaska has a professional hunting association. It is much like many African hunting associations where a hunter becomes an assistant guide (Apprentice hunter in Africa) then after a time period and an endorsement from his journeyman guide he may take the exam to become a licensed guide in Alaska. This system is rife with "good old boyism" however. Ak is full of scam artists outfitters and horrible guides. It's got a bunch of very good guides and outfitters too but it is definitely a buyer beware environment.

In my opinion Zimbabwe has the very finest professional hunters training and certification program on the planet. An apprentice or "appie" is required to hunt under a licensed professional hunter for a minimum of three years. In that three year time period the appie is required to complete a stringent and well thought out curriculum. Then after they've been an appie for the minimum required time and studied the required material they take a stringent certification test that has a high failure rate. The testing period is only conducted once a year and it is conducted by highly regarded and experienced professional hunters and the Zimbabwe parks department.

The Zimbabwe licensed professional hunter basically has the equivalent of a bachelors of science degree in hunting, dangerous game behavior and protection, field expedient gunsmithing, outdoors knowledge and survival, flora and fauna, first aid, field craft, primitive condition vehicle maintenance, camp construction, management and guest relations.

One of the countries that is very loose and runs wild with low quality guides and scamsters (professional hunters) is South Africa. South Africa is defiantly a buyer beware place for hunters.

 

[taliv]

great insight!

I haven't taken a guided hunt yet and have been wondering about the protocol. simple things like, when/how much do I tip?, when should i try to help out and when should i stay out of his way? how are decisions made when the hunters are a group of strangers? is the whole thing going to be fairly relaxed and laid back, or a big rush from one spot to another? or does that vary by guide.

been reading the websites of a lot of guides. some of them have interesting perspectives. most of them don't seem in a hurry to respond to email

 

[H&Hhunter]

simple things like, when/how much do I tip?

Obviously tipping is subjective and open to debate. IMO a good tip is 10% of the cost of the hunt in North America. In Africa 10% of the daily fees. Tipping should be conducted at the end of the hunt after all pills payable have been settled.

when should i try to help out and when should i stay out of his way?

I always try and pitch in if it looks like help might be appreciated. Some of the more rugged individualist types might take exception to that? I don't know if the guy doesn't want your help hopefully he or she would have to people skills to let you know without making an issue of it.

how are decisions made when the hunters are a group of strangers?

The guide should be the leader. His or her word should be final, however good input from the hunter should never be ignored either.

is the whole thing going to be fairly relaxed and laid back, or a big rush from one spot to another?

This really depends on the hunt, the time constraints involved and the personality of the guide.

or does that vary by guide.

YES!

been reading the websites of a lot of guides. some of them have interesting perspectives. most of them don't seem in a hurry to respond to email

It is very rare to find a good guide who is also a good businessman, and who has the time to answer E-mails during hunting season. Many guides rely on repeat business and don't even answer e mails from new perspective clients. It is shocking to me how these guys stay in business.

 

[taliv]

how are decisions made when the hunters are a group of strangers?

The guide should be the leader. His or her word should be final, however good input from the hunter should never be ignored either.

I know it sounds stupid but if there are more hunters than guides, then who goes with who, when and where? if they see an animal, who shoots first?
if there's a big difference between fitness levels of the hunters, does the guide go with the slowest one or push him uncomfortably?

or... maybe the situation is rare and mostly the hunters are friends or relatives, not individual strangers who happened to book hunts on the same week

 

[Robert]

I have a halfway decent guide, if only he knew where the elk really were...

 

[H&Hhunter]

I know it sounds stupid but if there are more hunters than guides, then who goes with who, when and where?

Personally I would NEVER book a 2x1 or greater hunt with strangers. You need to make sure you are not booking a 2x1 hunt and if you are you need to be crystal clear about your requirements. As i said I just say no on 2x1 hunts with strangers.

if they see an animal, who shoots first?

That needs to be pre agreed on. If it were me I'd just say no on a 2x1 hunt with a stranger as the other hunter.

if there's a big difference between fitness levels of the hunters, does the guide go with the slowest one or push him uncomfortably?

If it were me I'd go all Lee Eremy drill instructor mode on the slower guy. "GET YOUR LAZY, FAT, WORTHLESS, BUTT UP THAT HILL YOU SLIMY MAGGOT!" "THIS IS HUNTING TRIP SWEETHEART, NOT THE SENIOR PROM NOW MOVE IT!"

Or, I'd just say no to a 2x1 guided hunt with the other hunter being a stranger..

 

[H&Hhunter]

I have a halfway decent guide, if only he knew where the elk really were.

If that were me I'd get my money back! Sounds like your guide was a slacker.

 

[Ankeny]

I expect the guide to know how to field judge the animal he or she is guiding for.

That is really important when guiding for Pronghorn. I have had clients tell me they want an 80+ inch buck. My next question is B&C or SCI. I usually end up asking the client if they like the looks of the critter, then I give them the score. I always go on the conservative side. It's nice when I tell them 82 and the animal goes 85+.

Judging deer is a PITA. I have a lot of folks tell me they want a 30 inch wide mule deer. I still don't know why someone would shoot a 180 class wide deer and pass on a great 4x4 that is 25 inches wide and will score 195+.

As far as decisions and logistics, there is a big difference between a guide and an outfitter. Here in Wyoming you need a great outfitter with quality guides. As for 2x1 hunts, keep it family and friends. The outfitter I have guided for always offers a switch to 1x1 at no additional cost late in the hunt.

 

[witchhunter]

I guided for 10 years mostly bear and lion hunters in Nevada and California. I took a couple of Nevada deer hunters, it started out fine, but it became another job. I took locals at first, that was fine, as they were hunters that wanted to add a lion or a bear to their trophy collection. I earned a great reputation by hard work and dedication.Then I got a little bigger and started taking people that were not really hunters, but guys that wanted someone to do everything for them. They expected to be coddled and pampered. I had worked myself into a job that I hated, so I quit. I enjoyed teaching people how to hunt, read sign, judge animals, etc, I did not enjoy babysitting guys that showed up late, drunk, not able to take care of themselves.

 

[taliv]

there is a big difference between a guide and an outfitter.

what's the difference?

 

[Grumulkin]

Obviously tipping is subjective and open to debate. IMO a good tip is 10% of the cost of the hunt in North America. In Africa 10% of the daily fees. Tipping should be conducted at the end of the hunt after all pills payable have been settled.

In my opinion, tipping has gotten WAY out of hand. People should be paid to do their job like me and not expect tips. It has become a point of great anxiety for many. It's also a way many business entities get by with insufficiently paying their staff and removing more money from a client through guilt. If I were king, there would be no tipping.

That said, why the difference in tipping between North America and Africa. In Alaska, for instance, it wouldn't be unusual to go on a $6,500 hunt. That would mean a tip of $650. In South Africa, daily rates could be as low as $250 which for a 10 day hunt would come to $2,500 and would mean a $250 tip which seems a little low to me.

It would also be well to remember that a tip should be paid ONLY if the service was at least average quality. If the hunt wasn't as promised then don't tip. If the guide is surly or incompetent, then don't tip. If the guide is indifferent to your preferences then don't tip.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

H&H Hunter,
What are things as a guide you do NOT want to see from a hunter?
Not talking really crazy things like no meth in camp.....
But more subtle things that a sane person may do which could put the guide off, or just aren't smart these days.

Been thinking about a guided hunt out west or maybe to Alaska and some baseline advice would be nice.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Owen.

A bad/ negative attitude is the number one thing to not bring to a hunting camp. I can work with physical fitness issues. I can work with injuries. I can work with handicap issues. I can work with lousy substandard gear. But if a hunter shows up with a can't do or entitled attitude we are going to have a problem.

The other thing that can be a real problem is the hunter who shows up with that brand new shiny rifle that they have not taken the time and effort to sight in properly and become familiar with and are a bit scared of it because they traded in old faithful for this new jumbo ultra thawper magnum they read about in long range super magnum magazine.

Another constant area of bother tends to be new boots. Do not show up on a hard core hunt with boots that are not broken in. And not just broken in but boots that have been used enough that you know they won't burn blisters in your feet on day one or two of a ten day hunt. There is no finer way to ruin a hunt than a nice fiery set of blisters on your tender little tootsies.

A couple of points of minor irritation;

If you miss a shot that is on you. It ain't the angle of the sun, the rotation of the moon around the earth, migratory birds, clouds in your eyes, dust particles on Mars, and it sure as heck isn't the guides fault (usually). Man up, accept that stuff happens and do better next time. If you aren't comfortable with the shot DON'T take it in the first place!

If you are uncomfortable or unhappy about something tell your guide. They can't read your mind and getting huffy or sullen won't fix the problem. Poor communication has been the ruination of the hunt more often than not. If your knees are burning and aching on the ride in say something. Either adjusting your stirrups or walking for a bit can cure that problem. Cold at night? Say something I'll bet it us not the first time your guide had to fix that problem. Can't keep up with your guide? Say something I'll bet he can either slow down or work it out some other way. You get the idea.

Most importantly go with the attitude that the hunt is about the entire experience. Drink in the scenery and the smells and the new experiences. Enjoy the sunrises and sunsets, embrace the snow and wind, get thrill from watching a herd of cows even though the bull isn't with them. If in your mind you are there for the whole experience not just the part where you find a critter and shoot it. You will have a great hunt pretty much no matter what happens.

 

[95XL883]

Great thread! I'm in a blind right now hunting deer on my 40 acres. The morning was kind of ruined by all the duck hunters at dawn. Sounded like a small battle raging for about 30 minutes. Haven't seen one deer yet (last week I had seen seven in the first hour, just didn't have a shot. Really cool though.). But as H&H says enjoying the whole experience makes up for no sightings yet. This morning was the first time I have ever heard the flutter of a cardinal' swing as it took off. And as I finished reading H&H's last post the largest hawk I have ever seen flew overhead. It had to have at least a 3' foot wingspan and I wouldn't be surprised if it was pushing 4'. No deer yet but even if I don't see one today, seeing that hawk and hearing that cardinal have made this a great hunt. Not that a nice buck wouldn't make it even better.

 

[taliv]

$*&@* migratory birds! i hate it when they ruin my shot!


seriously though, what's the difference between a guide and an outfitter? i kind of assumed the outfitter was the company organizing the hunt and providing the camp/transport/etc and the guide is the poor sap they got to escort you around. but the great outfitter and quality guide statement made me wonder

 

[Grumulkin]

H&H Hunter,
What are things as a guide you do NOT want to see from a hunter?
Not talking really crazy things like no meth in camp.....
But more subtle things that a sane person may do which could put the guide off, or just aren't smart these days.

Been thinking about a guided hunt out west or maybe to Alaska and some baseline advice would be nice.

The most important baseline advice would be to ask for references for anyone you're thinking about hunting with. Also research them on the various hunting forums.

I've been on 2 Alaska hunts. On one that was supposed to be for grizzly and black bear, the area we hunted had only seen 1 black bear in about 5 years. I did get a grizzly so it wasn't all bad but it wasn't as advertised.

On a Wyoming hunt, the guides way of hunting pronghorn was racing up and down and over hill and dale chasing them. Then you were supposed to get out of the 4X4 and shoot them. That isn't the way I like to hunt but I didn't know better and the guide was determined to do it his own way.

In my experience, South Africa provides hunting much more like I like to do it and for about the same price as my Alaska grizzly hunt. I've never had a bad hunt there.

 

[H&Hhunter]

seriously though, what's the difference between a guide and an outfitter? i kind of assumed the outfitter was the company organizing the hunt and providing the camp/transport/etc and the guide is the poor sap they got to escort you around. but the great outfitter and quality guide statement made me wonder

In a nut shell that's it. the outfitter is also securing the permits for the land you are hunting on. Taking care of the business aspects of the hunt ETC ETC..

 

[mac66]

Great thread about guiding. I've hunted for 50 years and never used a guide though thinking of going out west to hunt had me curious as to what to expect.

I LOL'd that someone is sitting in their blind reading this thread on their smart phone. Kind of missing the whole point of getting out in nature if you can't separate yourself from the friggin internet for a couple hours.

 

[Ankeny]

On a Wyoming hunt, the guides way of hunting pronghorn was racing up and down and over hill and dale chasing them. Then you were supposed to get out of the 4X4 and shoot them. That isn't the way I like to hunt but I didn't know better and the guide was determined to do it his own way.

Chasing speedgoats then mashing on the brakes to blast them isn't exactly my kind of hunting either.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I have been hunting the same area for 30 years. I don't know that a guide was ever necessary, but you about have to have an outfitter to get your stuff in and out twenty miles by horse and mule when you have neither within 2500 miles. Most of the time we bow hunted for elk while the outfitter was setting up his camp. Not much bow hunting in those days. Took my partner and I a couple of years, but we got to where we could get in to elk most every day. I have probably had enough herd bulls within 100 yards to fill a transfer truck, bow range not so much LOL We came and went as we pleased, no guide.

Now, I don't know whether it is liability or what but these new outfitters don't even want you to bridle a horse. And, you have some 25 year old "guide" which I don't really mind if he is good company.

The hardest thing to explain to them is that I want to do this the way I want to do it, when and how I want to and if I don't get a shot I DON"T CARE.

 

[H&Hhunter]

And, you have some 25 year old "guide" which I don't really mind if he is good company.

The hardest thing to explain to them is that I want to do this the way I want to do it, when and how I want to and if I don't get a shot I DON"T CARE.

I absolutely agree with this ^^^^^. And it is the prime reason that unless it is absolutely required to get into an area I want to hunt I will never use a guide myself. I don't mind paying a trespass fee when necessary. But the majority of "guides" I meet nowadays are more of a hindrance to me than a help.

As mentioned there are some very professional guides out there doing good work. But the kid who got hired because he is the only one stupid enough to work for less than minimum wage and he has a pick up truck type guides that are all so prevalent are just a major pain in the butt for the most part.

 

[Ankeny]

I have had a lot of clients that "didn't care" right up until the last hour of the last day. :banghead:

But the kid who got hired because he is the only one stupid enough to work for less than minimum wage and he has a pick up truck type guides that are all so prevalent are just a major pain in the butt for the most part.

I can relate to that. I would imagine the average age for the 8 guides working for the outfitter I worked for is probably 45 years old.

 

[taliv]

i'd want to talk to the guide quite a bit before i went to make sure he understood how i wanted to hunt and that we were on the same page. no sense in discovering irreconcilable differences after you've left camp. i'm surprised it's that much of a problem

of course, i can see something like a "we should go that way", "no, we need to go the other way" decision could lead to frustration if the guide is wrong and you don't get a shot