Leverevolution .357 and flattened primers

[JRWhit]

[/ATTACH]
Shooting today had a little bit of a etchy experience with 140 gn Leverevolution cartridges shooting in a gp100 .357 magnum. When I first started I loaded 3 Leverevolution rounds with 3 140gn xtp handloads. I wanted to compare recoil to my hand loads. All in all there was nearly no difference in the two as far as recoil and POI. I shot about 25 more of the handloads, and then about 30 180gn xtp hand loads. I also had been shooting a 38. Before rapping up I went back to the gp100 and finished of the last six leverevolution rounds I had. The recoil seemed significantly harsher, but I thought it was due to the fact that I had just finished shooting 38s from my sp101 and of course the magnums punched harder. After I finished them off I checked out the casing and much to my surprise the primers where flattened. I had not at all expected that from a factory round. Is there something I could be missing here? The first three that I fired did not flatten like this. The on the left is from the first three and looks fine. The Leverevolution cartridges are slightly shorter than regular .357 brass to make room for the polymer tip. So I wouldn't expect fouling from my handloads to effect them. Aside from that the pressure seal from my hand load was keeping the brass nice and clean after firing. What could I be Missing that could have caused this, or is it common for the leverevolution rounds to be loaded that hot? Considering that the first three were fine I tend to believe I'm missing something here.

 

[herrwalther]

It might be the picture but the primers look fine to me. I use LR powder with FTX bullets in most of my lever guns and they have a tendency to need a bit more powder to reach the advertised velocity.

 

[greenmtnguy]

They don't seem so bad to me either.

 

[beag_nut]

What you are "missing" is anything wrong, or different. And a bunch of grammar/ (spelling?).

 

[JRWhit]

What you are "missing" is anything wrong, or different. And a bunch of grammar/ (spelling?).

Sorry, got in a hurry.

 

[buck460XVR]

Trying to read primers from ammo shot in magnum caliber revolvers is as reliable as readin' tea leaves. Flattened primers in my magnum revolvers is standard procedure for me and I load well below max in all of them. Your primers still have rounded shoulders and do not look excessively flattened to me. Factory ammo(unless it is a bad lot) will not produce excessive pressures in most cases. Neither will handloads if you do the proper work up for your loads.

 

[JRWhit]

Perhaps I'm over analyzing. It's hard to tell in the photo but the one in the center was starting to flow out of the primer pocket. You can barely see it in the photo toward the right side. The only time the my gp100 seems to have a great deal of recoil is after shooting something lighter. Never feels like anything stout when it's the only thing, or the first thing I'm shooting. Nice to get some reassurance though. Thanks for the extra eyes.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Have you ever taken a good look at factory Winchester .357 Magnum ammo? For some reason the primers look much worse than yours but are not overpressure.

 

[JRWhit]

Honestly, before reloading I never paid any attention to primers and since I started loading, these are the first factory loads I can recall using.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Honestly, before reloading I never paid any attention to primers and since I started loading, these are the first factory loads I can recall using.

You are smart to be careful but in this case I don't feel you have anything to worry about. Is there anything other than the primers pointing to excessive pressure? If not, I wouldn't worry.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Doesn't look like a problem to me. Think you're worrying too much.

If the cylinder was binding it would be something to worry about. It wasn't right?

 

[JRWhit]

No binding. Guess I just got myself worked up. The recoil seemed abnormally excessive, but again that was after shooting a 38 with mouse fart loads.

 

[amd6547]

Did you shoot 38's in the GP as well? The fouling can increase pressure when you go back to 357's.

 

[JRWhit]

Did you shoot 38's in the GP as well? The fouling can increase pressure when you go back to 357's.

No, I was shooting those in a sp101

 

[StrawHat]

In revolvers, by the time you can see pressure problems in your spent ammuntion, you are already far into dangerous territory.

 

[buck460XVR]

Sticky extraction is a better sign of overpressure in revolvers than flattened primers. Were you shooting .38s outta the same revolver before shooting .357s? If so, the carbon ring left by the .38s may make the chamber fit tighter for the longer .357s, thus resulting in slightly higher pressure.

 

[CraigC]

Looks normal to me too.

Sticky extraction is a better sign of overpressure in revolvers than flattened primers.

Not really. Pressure signs are meaningless in straight walled revolver cartridges. Trust your data, verify with a chronograph.

 

[hardluk1]

Do NOT shoot 38's followed by 357's. Bad thing to do and does cause pressure sprikes. Look at your other brass is see if there a difference. If your going to shoot both then shoot the 38's last and go home and clean the chambers well.

Better yet start loading soft loads in 357 brass , forget the using 38 brass. I load wad cutter 750fps loads for may dw 357 revolver.

 

[buck460XVR]

Looks normal to me too.



Not really. Pressure signs are meaningless in straight walled revolver cartridges. Trust your data, verify with a chronograph.

Not every handloader has a chrono. When I first started handloading chrono's were a luxury item owned by very few folks Craig. We got along by stickin' to published data, starting low and workin' up slowly to find accuracy. While flattened primers in a revolver never meant much, when extraction went from cases fallin' out to having to be pushed out, we knew we had gone too far. While one can generally trust their data when using a start load, trusting the data to tell you what a max load in your revolver means little to those with tight chambers and throats. I've gotten sticky extraction in firearms like that, even when the chrono tell me velocity is where is supposed to be. If I get sticky extraction with clean and polished chambers.......I back down. Period. Just as I don't tell other folks new to reloading to ignore sticky extraction, it means nuttin'. You are free to do what you want. Besides....the flattened primers were from factory ammo....not handloads.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Do NOT shoot 38's followed by 357's. Bad thing to do and does cause pressure sprikes. Look at your other brass is see if there a difference. If your going to shoot both then shoot the 38's last and go home and clean the chambers well.

Better yet start loading soft loads in 357 brass , forget the using 38 brass. I load wad cutter 750fps loads for may dw 357 revolver.

Internet myth! Yes you will build up a carbon ring if you shoot a lot of .38 Specials but you need to shoot many over a bunch of sessions to raise the pressures when shooting .357 Magnums again. Even if you do run into a problem at the range all you need to do is tap a spent .357 Magnum case into each charge hole to remove the ring.

Everyone makes way too much of this and I suspect all those who post this problem are going by what they hear, not what they have personally seen. I have never had a problem at the range and that's with shooting both back and forth in no order.

 

[wheelyfun66]

I was shooting some 140gr leverevolution in my 686 snub two days ago, and experienced a binding of the cylinder....

I was able to open the cylinder and noticed that one round wasn't seated as deeply as the others....

no problems with various other manufacturer's ammo......

Don't know what caused it, and just chucked the round! (not something that I am going to shoot alot of....)

 

[JRWhit]

Do NOT shoot 38's followed by 357's. Bad thing to do and does cause pressure sprikes. Look at your other brass is see if there a difference. If your going to shoot both then shoot the 38's last and go home and clean the chambers well.

I didn't. All 38s were fired from my SP101

 

[JRWhit]

The reason I thought the primers looked so flattened was by comparison to my hand loads. As far as recoil and POI they where pretty close to even in the first 3+3 I fired. But the primers from my hand loads are way more rounded at the edge after shot. Maybe the primers I'm using are thicker than the factory used primers in the Leverevolution rounds

 

[BCRider]

As someone above mentioned I expect some flattening of the primers and imprinting of roughness from the FP bushing on magnum rounds. What I AM seeing is that the primers have not been formed out much, if any, into the primer pocket chamfers. So all in all I'd say that the pressures are high but still OK. There's still some obvious rounding of the primer shoulders and they didn't form out to fill the pocket chamfer.

If it helps I've gotten this same behaviour from shooting my CCI 500 series primers in full house Magnum reloads using information both from my Lyman 49'th manual as well as the online Hodgdon website reloading data.

 

[Mr. T]

Just a thought here, if you say the Leverevolution rounds were slightly shorter, it could have left residue in the cylinder, similar to how a .38 round does and if you then went to your regular length rounds, you might see a slight increase in pressure similar to that of a .38 to .357 interchange. It's worth watching, but if it seems to be a problem, just make sure to clean out the cylinder before switching back and forth between to the two different types of ammo. Just my $.02 worth.