Light hammer strike problem.....

[km101]

To remedy the 15 lbs + double action trigger pull on my S&W model 69. 2.75" revolver, I installed a Wolff level 2 mainspring. I started getting light strikes. Since this will be in my EDC rotation I immediately put the original spring back. To my surprise and frustration I am still getting light strikes, sometimes as many as 2 per cylinder. I have checked and it is not always the same hole. I am using Starline .44spl brass with Remington LPP. This combo fires 100% in my 629.

Any thoughts, suggestions, guesses? If I can't find a solution I will send it back to S&W, but I don't want to be without it for 4 - 5 months unless absolutely necessary.

Thanks in advance!

 

[MrBorland]

Well, the obvious first thing to check is that the stain screw is tightened down all the way. The next easy thing is to check the grip panel screw - on those rubber grips with a lateral screw, the grips can pinch the mainspring if you really honk down on the screw when re-installing them.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I'm curious if it happens in double action only, or if it happens with SA shooting as well?

I had a similar situation with a 686 PC gun. In single action it always fired. In DA I was getting irregular failures to fire. After many exchanges with MrBorland and some other knowledgeable folks, I decided it was an issue I wouldn't be able to diagnose, even with their help.

S&W's solution was to put in a slightly longer firing pin. I don't know if that was a good solution or not in the long run, but the gun always works now. Hope you sort it out.

 

[Jim NE]

Strain screw is always the place to start.

 

[straightshooterjake]

It is difficult to diagnose a revolver without having it in hand. The causes of misfires are not extremely complicated, but there are a lot more variables than people often realize. The advice to focus on the strain screw and to check the grips for interference are both good recommendations.

If it is at all possible, you could try to find someone local who can look over the revolver. A qualified gunsmith would be the ideal choice, but even an experienced revolver shooter might be able to help. If you are back to having a pretty heavy trigger pull, and still getting misfires, then something must be pretty far out of spec. So it should not be too hard to find the issue.

I would also recommend testing with some commercial ammunition. I am not doubting your reloads in any way, but it is good to reduce the variables. Also, Smith & Wesson will not accept the gun back for warranty work if the problem has not been demonstrated with commercial ammo.

If you are interested in a lot more info about improving the triggers in S&W revolvers, I wrote a long article on the subject. The article includes a section on the causes of misfires.

The article is here:

Improving the trigger on Smith & Wesson Revolvers

The section on causes of misfires is here:

Issues which cause light strikes

The article is also discussed in this thread:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...wesson-revolver-triggers-please-review.817407

 

[km101]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen!

The strain screw is original, unmodified and tight. And the grips ar Pachmayr Diamond Pro, which use the hole at the bottom of the grip frame where the grip pin was. Grips show no evidence of scuffing by the mainspring.

The light strikes only occur in double action. Works 100% in single action mode.

I will find some commercial .44 spl. ammo and see if the results are the same, and I will try other brands of brass.

I intend to carry/shoot primarily .44 spl. ammo in this gun but I will test it with factory .44 mag. ammo too.

straight shooterjake,thanks for the article. I will print it out for future reference.

Again, thanks for all the replies and advice!

 

[MrBorland]

Assuming you initially measured it (15+ lbs is pretty heavy, even for a stock S&W DA trigger), did you re-measure the DA pull after you put the original spring(s) back in to see if you get the original reading? Since you had a Wolff kit laying around, is it possible you put in another Wolff spring, rather than the stock spring? Look at all the springs - I don't recall if the Wolff springs look radically different, but they're likely at least slightly different in appearance from the factory spring, so the one that looks different ought to be the one that's in there.

Is the hammer centered in the frame? If it's now rubbing, you might've missed a shim (or put too many on one side) upon re-assembly.

Did you remove the firing pin or FP spring at any point? Is it freely moving and able to protrude easily & sufficiently?

You didn't, by any chance, also try smoothing the action? If you stoned the hammer/trigger cam interface too much, the DA trigger might be breaking earlier than it had been, robbing the hammer of some oomph.

Check for endshake (though I don't know why it would suddenly develop an endshake issue after a spring swap). Being an L-frame .44mag, maybe it already had an endshake issue, and shims were installed behind the yoke. If so, did they get re-installed upon re-assembly?

Finally, look at the FP indents on the primers on the rounds that didn't go off - are they pretty much centered like the fired rounds? If not, you may have a timing issue.

 

[SteadyD]

Any Smith and Wesson revolver I've sent in was back to my doorstep in under 3 weeks, and usually 2 weeks. So if you do have to send it in I don't think the wait will be as bad as you anticipate.

 

[Dave T]

I had much the same experience as the OP with two S&W Nightguards, a 325 and a 386. In both cases the factory DA trigger pull was horrendous (I believe the OP when he said 15 pounds). My first step was to install Wolff main springs, and yes the strain screw was seated fully. Trigger pull was much improved but misfires became routine. Thus started a long journey of trying various main springs I've accumulated over the years and various length strain screws. I also purchased and installed the over sized firing pins from C&S. The only way I could get reliable ignition was with reloads featuring Federal primers.

Since both of these were to be carry guns and Federal was not my ammunition of choice, I gave up in disgust. One gun is sold and the other is up for sale now. My solution to this problem is to never, NEVER, purchase another S&W that doesn't have a hammer mounted firing pin. Problem solved. (and I can't stand the idiot IL anyway)

Dave

 

[MrBorland]

Frame mounted firing pins aren’t any less reliable than the hammer-mounted version. Sounds like something else wasn’t in spec and the extended FPs were likely a bandaid.

 

[pintler]

1)My M69 came with an ungodly high trigger pull, fixed by careful bending of the mainspring until the pull matched my other S&W revolvers.

2)I had an M629 that had light strike problems. I measured the firing pin protrusion, and it was less that all my other S&W's. I sent it back to S&W and it came back with more firing pin protrusion, and the light strikes stopped.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My solution to this problem is to never, NEVER, purchase another S&W that doesn't have a hammer mounted firing pin.

Frame mounted firing pins aren’t any less reliable than the hammer-mounted version.

I'll go even further and say that framed mounted firing pins offer inherently more reliable ignition than a hammer mounted one.

Back before Apex Tactical Specalties changed the game with their redesigned hammers, guys shooting PPC and trying to get the lightest trigger pull possible were buying up the S&W M-53 for their frame mounted hammers

 

[MrBorland]

I'll go even further and say that framed mounted firing pins offer inherently more reliable ignition than a hammer mounted one.

heh…I was going to post that, but thought I'd be pushing my luck

 

[km101]

Ok, I put the original spring back and the pull weight is still 15+. ( my weights only go up to 15lbs so I don't know how heavy it actually is.)

I only have the original spring and the Wolff (and the Wolff has the distinctive rib ) so I know the original spring is in. I re-checked.

I did not remove the hammer, trigger or firing pin. I don't have any experience with MIM parts and am not comfortable working on them, so they're factory original. Very slight rub on left side of hammer. ( one spot only, pinheaded size ) No end shake and no shims on yoke.

FP indents are still the same, though not as deep and smaller dia. than on my other guns. Don't have any way to measure FP protrusion but to my uncalibrated eye it doesn't seem like much. I wonder if this may be the culprit?

Anyone have a recommendation for a good S&W 'smith in the Dallas-Ft Worth area? I would rather take it to someone local than send it back to the factory.

But if I do have to send it back, does anyone know what the Performance Center charges for an action job?

Thanks again for all the help and knowledge!

Ken

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Anyone have a recommendation for a good S&W 'smith in the Dallas-Ft Worth area? I would rather take it to someone local than send it back to the factory.

Contact S&W. They will likely fix it for free as long as you didn't modify the gun in a way that voided the warranty, and they will send you a paid shipping label. If you mention the trigger pull they may fix that too.

I understand your reluctance to send it away, but the CS from S&W is good, and my turn around time mirrored SteadyD's.

 

[MrBorland]

Yeah - sounds like it's time for a 'smith (or S&W) to take a look at it.

The FP protrusion might be an issue, but I don't know why it suddenly would be an issue after a simple spring swap & re-swap. At any rate, shallow primer indents on unfired rounds don't necessarily mean a FP issue - the indent from the initial hit will be relatively small, but when the round fires, it slams the case back into the FP, and it's this secondary hit that forms the deep indent we're all familiar with. IOW, a shallow indent might simply (and only) be confirmation the round didn't fire.

Let us know how your issue resolves itself. I'm curious to learn what the culprit was. Especially since this is part of your EDC rotation, whoever looks at it hopefully gets to the root of the problem, rather bandaid-ing it by simply sticking an extended FP in there.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

whoever looks at it hopefully gets to the root of the problem, rather bandaid-ing it by simply sticking an extended FP in there

That was my reaction when my gun was "fixed". Do you think it's as simple as out of spec FPs? I mean my issue was a few years ago. If it was that the pins are being manufactured out of spec, the problem would be more wide spread, and S&W would have taken care of it awhile ago I would think.

It just seems like out of spec FPs can't be the simple answer. Are the FP on J frames the same length as K/L frames? Maybe their assembly folks just used the wrong parts?

 

[MrBorland]

I suppose it could be an out-of-spec FP, but my impression is that the OP's gun was working fine before the spring swap, so I assume the FP, the spring and the FP channel are ok. Maybe some crud in the FP channel? I once had a FP spring disintegrate, and a little piece of it got itself wedged in there and locked up the FP.

An extended FP can buy you a little extra reliability, which is why they're commonly seen on well-tuned game guns with uber-light double actions. A gunsmith or a factory doing warranty work, though, might be tempted to stick one in simply in an attempt to get the gun working again as quickly as possible, which doesn't really fix anything. It's also my impression that extended FPs have an increased tendency to break, especially at the worst moment (see vid) and/or if you dry fire the gun without snap caps in it.


( ^^^ incidentally, there wouldn't even have been a discussion had that been anyone but JM. The shooter would've immediately been given a DNF for the stage, and the next shooter called to the line. It ain't fair, but sometimes, clout counts )

 

[km101]

I have decided to send the gun back to S&W to avoid a confidence issue. Hopefully they will get to the root of the problem and not just stick an extended FP in the gun.

If they won't voluntarily fix the trigger pull issue, I may (depending on cost, right here before the holidays.) have the PC do an action job.

I will continue to test mag and spl loads until I ship it and I will update the thread when I have news. Thanks again!

 

[straightshooterjake]

Sending the revolver back to S&W is a fine choice. Be sure to give them a detailed description of the problem. If your trigger pull is really over 15 lb, I think you could mention that too. I am not sure if they will do anything to improve the trigger pull as part of standard warranty service, but 15 lb is a bit much. Most of the stock revolvers have about a 12 lb double action pull weight, and that is already pretty heavy.

S&W will not just install an extra length firing pin. They will certainly check the firing pin, and they will replace it if it does not meet specs in some way. But they will replace it with a standard stock pin. The stock firing pins work just fine when everything else is within proper specs.

 

[Dave T]

Frame mounted firing pins aren’t any less reliable than the hammer-mounted version. Sounds like something else wasn’t in spec and the extended FPs were likely a bandaid.

Mr Borland, your saying that doesn't change my personal experience with two different S&W revolvers. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion but do not tell me my experience didn't happen. I tried every conventional remedy/fix and the only way to achieve consistently reliable ignition was with excessively heavy trigger pulls.

Davbe

 

[MrBorland]

do not tell me my experience didn't happen.

eh…as far as I can tell, I didn't. Nor was I implying that.

Your statement that your solution was to avoid revolvers with frame-mounted FPs seem to imply the fundamental problem with your revos was the frame-mounted FP design. If you think this design was the root of your problems, fine, but I offered a clarification to anyone who might've interpreted your statement to mean it's universally accepted that the frame-mounted system is inherently less reliable.

 

[joneb]

Have you tried federal primers? They are the most sensitive I've used.
Sending it back S&W is a good move.

 

[km101]

UPDATE!!

Ok, it's almost a month since I sent the gun to S&W and no word yet. I realize there was a holiday in there but it doesn't look like there will be a two week turnaround.

I tried a couple of things before I shipped it: 1. Loaded some rounds with Federal primers. (I had been using Remington & CCI without any problems until the Model 69). FTF's decreased, but I still have some. Still some evidence of light strikes on fired cases.
2. Shot some Speer .44 mag loads and had 3 FTF in double action out of 50 rounds.
3. Measured primer seating depth on hand loads and they are measuring from flush with case head to .002 below case head with mixed cases. I called Dillon tech support and he assured me that is normal, and all I will get. Of course he suggested Fed primers and extended FP also.

I'm hoping to get the gun back before Christmas as I would like to take with me on a late season deer hunt!

MERRY CHRISTMAS

 

[RecoilRob]

Some guns have VERY stiff trigger return springs that can add 4-5 lbs of pull weight by themselves, then add the hammer spring and things start to get pretty heavy. A trigger that returns reliably is a must, but I think they go overboard on the springs at times and some improvements can be made to the pull without compromising the hammer fall. Getting the trigger return spring back in place is easier when it's not so heavy and needing compressed so much too.