load data confusion.....

[SSN Vet]

I'm loading up target rounds for my .357 Taurus 689 w/ 6-1/2" barrel.

My goal is to improve my proficiency with this revolver and have fun.

I'm using once fired .38 special and .357 brass, W231 and 148 gr. Berrys plated DEWC.

for the .357...
Modern Reloading and Winchester say the max load is 3.4 gr and list pressures/velocities from 17,600 CUP/908 FPS (Win) to 19,500 CUP/880 FPS (Lee).

for the .38 special...
Modern Reloading gives the max load as 3.3 gr and list pressure/velocity 16,100PSI/770 FPS, while Winchester gives the max load as 4.0 gr and list pressure/velocity 15,900 CUP/956 FPS.

COL for both assume seated ~ flush with the case, with differences between publishers being only 02".

So here's my questions.....

Why are these published loads limiting the 148 gr. wadcutter .357 charges so much? while other W231 loads for .357 routinely go over 40,000 CUP and 1,200 FPS?

I realize that other bullet styles are not seated as deep, but the allowed pressures are double for say 158 gr. jacketed bullets.

Are they assuming a lead or plated bullet and using velocity as the upper bound. I realize that Berry's says not to load up their plated handgun bullets past 800 FPS, but why would the load table use this? Do guys using lead wadcutters with gas checks hesitate to push the velocities faster?

I'm also confused why the max. .38 special charge for the same bullet is higher than the .357 charge. This doesn't make sense to me, as the .357 case is bigger and the guns allowable pressure is greater.

I conservatively loaded my first batch of .38 cases to 3.1 gr. and they felt like a pop gun. leaving me to check that the bullet cleared the barrel.

I shot the "max." .357 load this past weekend and it was very tame to say the least.

groups were not great.....though I hesitate to say this was the load and not me

I see recommended loads both on THR and Steve's pages that go up to 4.5 gr of W231 in for the .357 and based on my "little poppers" I have little doubt that this is safe.

I'm just wondering why my two published sources are limiting the pressures ont the .357 loads so much.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm just wondering why my two published sources are limiting the pressures ont the .357 loads so much.

You're loading 148 grain wadcutters, right?

They were never designed for great pressures and velocities. If you use hollowbase wadcutters, you could create a dangerous condition -- the forepart of the wadcutter may blow off, leaving the skirt in the barrel. The next shot will encounter that bore obstruction and you will ruin your gun (and possibly parts of your anatomy.)

If you are using solid base wadcutters, you can try an experiment. Load a few to the max charge specified for the next heavier bullet and seat them well out (so as not to create excessive pressure.) Fire a few, then look down the bore of your revolver and tell us what you see.

Be sure you have a leadout cleaning kit before try this.

 

[IDriveB5]

For the reason's Vern stated, I would be careful going up with the HBWCs. With those DEWCs, you should have a little more room to play.

One load that I have found for .357Mag that my revolver likes is as follows:
158gr Berry's plated RN over 6.6gr W231 with a COL of 1.595(?? gotta check my records@home). Hopefully will have some ballistic data on that in a week or so.

*How fast can I shoot these bullets?
Velocities depend on the caliber, but as a rule of thumb, we recommend you don't shoot our plated bullets over 1200 feet-per-second. Our 44's actually shoot best around 1150 fps. 45's are generally good at 850-900 fps. Our bullets are not recommended for magnum velocities.

 

[SSN Vet]

I stand corrected on Berry's max velocity guidance....it is indeed 1,200 fps and not 800 fps as I stated.

I'm loading for 148 gr DEWC .... not hollow base ones. But I'm happy to learn just what the issue with hollow base bullets is.

It just makes no sense to me that the .38 load allows more powder than the .357 load. Less cartridge space under the flush seated bullet......not as strong a platform......yet they allow a 4.0 gr. max for the .38 and only a 3.4 gr. max for the .357????

 

[ReloaderFred]

With that bullet design, you're dealing with target loads, which are on the light end of the spectrum. The data suggested is where the publishers found the best accuracy with that type of bullet, not pressure levels. I shot PPC matches for years and the standard load was 2.7 grains of Bullseye under a 148 grain hollow base wadcutter. From my gun and a Ransom Rest, that load would put 10 rounds into 1 7/8" at 50 yards. This is a very light load, but accurate, which was the goal.

Don't worry about the pressures for the loads you're looking at. They really don't have any bearing on target loads, per se. The only reason they're listed is because the loads were developed on pressure testing equipment and the data was available, so there was no reason not to publish it. Also, some guns deliver better accuracy in certain pressure ranges. I don't know why, only that they do.

I think you'll find that with this bullet, you're going to get better accuracy shooting them in .38 cases, rather than .357 cases. They just seem to perform better in the shorter case. I've never seen a match shooter using .357 magnum cases for target shooting. If they were more accurate than .38's, believe me, they would all be using them.

When you get into loading SWC, JHP or RN bullets for higher performance, then you'll have to take a look at the pressures for the selected loads.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[SSN Vet]

I'm happy to have a "toned down" load....it just didn't make any sense to me.

I shoot this revolver well when I thumb cock it, but want to improve my double action performance....which is going to take some practice.

Fortunately, I hit the jackpot Saturday and came home with >200 once fired cases from the brass bucket, along with the cartridge holders and boxes from trash bin. 3 hours in the tumbler with two cap fulls of Nu Finish and they're all sparkly.

Just call me Fred Sanford

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A man after my own heart.

I have literally thousands of pieces of brass for .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .30-30 and .30-06 that I scrounged at ranges, landfills and quarrys -- whereever people shoot and leave the empties lying around.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Ok, Fred Sanford! Welcome to the brass scroungers crowd. We all walk looking at the ground...........

I actually shoot better double action than single action. That was the way I was taught to shoot and it was the only way we could shoot in the department I retired from.

Double action shooting just takes concentration on the trigger pull, which should be a continuous, smooth, movement. You shouldn't know when the hammer is going to fall, though you will get a feel for it. Dry firing will help to improve both your trigger pull and the action of your revolver. There are several tricks to improving double action shooting, but they're for another thread.

The biggest hurdle in good handgun shooting is overcoming the tendency to look at the target. I tell students the most important six words in handgun shooting are, "FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT". It really makes a difference in their shooting.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[1911user]

If you've read this before, my apologies.

In my experience the best way to learn a smooth DA trigger pull is extensive, careful dry firing. Careful meaning start with a slow trigger speed and good form then slowly speed the trigger pull only to the extent that you can keep the sights rock steady on a practice target. A common technique is to keep a coin balanced on the barrel while dry firing. Another technique that helped was to release the trigger at the same speed you pull it and never lift your finger away from the trigger between "shots". Practice 20 minutes a day and it won't take long to start seeing improvement.

Once your dry fire DA is smooth then add live fire practice with target loads. Start slow then build trigger speed only when you can maintain accurate hits. When you can do fast DA with good hits then consider increasing the ammo power and start slow and build trigger speed (again). This seperates sight alignment, trigger pull, and recoil management; each is an important, but seperate, skill to learn and practice.

 

[benedict1]

There is something inconsistent here--in Modern Reloading, 2nd Ed., on page 557, Richard Lee gives the following load for a 158 gr Lead Bullet--10 gr heavier than the wadcutter you are using--

Win 231 Start 6.1 gr
Max 6.7 gr
Vel. 1250 fps
Max. Load Press.=42500 CUP
Min OAL=1.540"

That is way upscale from the 3.4 gr Max load you noted with 148 gr WC. I believe these data come from Winchester loading guide which was in use at the time the book was published. The load you note is given on p. 555.

I think I would contact Hodgdon/Winchester via email and find out what they say. I would be real careful with other data--it wouldn't be the first time a misprint occurred in a loading guide.

A final thought--isn't Win 231 a little too fast burning for .357 Mag? I use Unique with a 158 gr plated RNFP Berry's bullet at 6 gr with a small Win pistol primer. It has the pop of a .357 Mag but is not uncomfortable at all to shoot.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'm loading for 148 gr DEWC .... not hollow base ones. But I'm happy to learn just what the issue with hollow base bullets is.

They are designed for low pressure loads. They have a large hollowbase and are made of soft lead. High pressure loads may over-expand the skirt, which can be damaged as the bullet exits the chamber and makes the jump into the forcing cone. The skirt can be ripped off as the bullet goes down the bore, and remain in the bore as an obstruction.

It's happened more than once.

 

[SSN Vet]

after gleening my little brass windfall....

I think I'll use up my 148 gr. DEWC in my .38 special brass with the W231 and then next time around I'll buy 158 gr. bullets and different powder for loading up the .357 cases. Seems like theirs an abundance of "normal" data for this more traditional .357 bullet.

Is 2400 a ball powder? I'll need something that meters well in an Auto Disk.

I can buy powder locally with cash and not leave an auditable paper trail

anything I order on line turns up on the credit card receipt and I'm busted

my wife has already "tuned in" and skims through looking for any Midway line items

the downside of the cashless economy

 

[ReloaderFred]

Do like I did, get your wife involved in shooting. Now, instead of buying reloading components for "me", I'm buying them for "us". It made a world of difference in the flak received for both purchases and time at the loading bench. Whenever she starts to say something about spending too much time at the loading bench, I just tell her I'm loading her some more ammo to enjoy shooting. Works like a charm. She even throws some of "her money" in for components once in awhile.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[SSN Vet]

 

[10xforever]

357 Target loads

I have just started reloading and also just purchased a S&W 686 Powerport 6" 357 mag and i use the following to excellent results:
Brass is .357 Starline
Primers are Winchester small pistol
Powder is WW231 at 3.2 Gr.
Bullets used are Hornday 148 Gr hbwc, Alstar/Magnus 148 Gr
dewc and Oregon Trail 148 Gr dewc.
All are seated flush with the case mouth with a slight roll crimp over the bullet shoulder. The crimp advise comes from the Winchester people via an e-mail request i submitted for crimp data on the .357 for target shooting.
When i started i worked up from 3.0 Gr to 3.4Gr using 5 rounds per .1 Gr increase. My 686 likes the 3.2 Gr and i have been happy with all three bullets used.
You do not need Magnum primers the regular small pistol primers work great.
Hopes this helps.
The reason i like the .357 cases over the .38 spl is the extra
case length and cylinder cleanup and less bullet jump to forcing cone distance.

 

[IDriveB5]

Is 2400 a ball powder? I'll need something that meters well in an Auto Disk.

Also interested.

Is there a list somewhere that says what powder is what type?

I think AA#5 and #7 are ball powders:
http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/5.htm
http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/7.htm

http://www.reloadammo.com/357loads.htm

 

[benedict1]

According to

ABCs of Reloading,

it is a fine granular powder and should probably feed like a ball powder. Do you have a copy of this old standby book? If not you are placing yourself at a disadvantage. It also states that 2400 is very powerful powder which is used with small charges in large cases and you had better be very careful not to double charge--could be a disaster.

 

[SSN Vet]

thanks for the 2400 info.

I'm a little embarassed, as I have the ABC's....but have only got through the first 3 chapters.

Time to get reading.